I have been retained to construct an elaborate fence with 6×6 posts, 4×4 rails, and 2×2 spindles. My lumber choices given the above dimensions are limited: PT Doug Fir, Redwood, and Cedar. Given the fact that this is a decorative fence paint grade, I am thinking that PT Fir would be a bear to paint with all the holes and such. Three Questions for today:
1. What wood would you recommend? PT Fir, Redwood, or Cedar?
2. Which construction application works best for a low fence, tamp and gravel or concrete? I think concrete is losing favor of late. Fence supplier recommends simple gravel on short fences.
3. Do you guys have any sources for designs for an elaborate fence. This is in a historic neighborhood (circa 1910) and so it needs an arts and crafts theme. I can get some books from Amazon or can draw my own, but was wondering what you guys might have.
Thanks!!!!
Boris
“Sir, I may be drunk, but you’re crazy, and I’ll be sober tomorrow” — WC Fields, “Its a Gift” 1934
Replies
We put in quite a bit of wood fencing recently. Posts are 6 foot driftwood logs, mostly yellow cedar, and we tamped them in about 2 feet deep with 5/8" minus crushed rock. They're not as solid as posts set in concrete and I put crete in one hole where a gate swings on the post. They're definitely sturdy enough for agricultural rustic fencing, and I got a yard of the rock for $15. I probably wouldn't do this around a manicured lawn where everything wants to stay real plumb. If you use concrete just throw it in the hole dry and let it wick moisture from the soil.
Painted PT looks like hell to me--all those tiny holes from the processing. I think you gotta use cedar or maybe redwood, but redwood is probably more expensive than teak at this point, especially in 6x6.
1) If you're responsible for the painting stay away from redwood. Very difficult to seal the staining. I've successfully used it, but the painter sure complained. Much more so than dealing with dry pressure treated.
3) How elaborate? I've done a lot of Chippendale panels. My guess is you'd do better with something simpler. I repaired one where the bottom rail was beveled to a point with the spindles cut to match. Installation was great. Spindle tops went into a groove in the top rail, blocking between. But 4x4's would be incredibly chunky.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Tom:
Other than a good oil based primer on the redwood, what the heck do you need? I've painted redwood before, and never had an issue--just a high quality oil based primer/sealer (2 coats) and a finish coat or two. Am I missing something?
Regards,
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
I seen some fence post on the telly . It was a wooden post with a gavlinize post embedded in the bottom. Place the metal part in concrete and have the wood couple inches off the ground. I thought it was a good idea.
A neighbor did that he pored the post holes full of concrete and use 1 1/8 inch rebar left it sticking up about 2'. then he bored a hole in the 6x6 to take the rebar. He also pored the wood treatment in the hole of the 6x6. He also put a piece of PVC between the concrete and the 6x6 . So far it seem to be working, but it has only been a year.
Am I missing something?
Not if it worked. I didn't paint the redwood, simply endured the complaints from the painters. It would appear your primer was superior to theirs. Stain bleeding was the problem. Stain blockers were the solution, adding 2-3 extra coats. Surprising, in that this was no low-end painting company(ies).
Thanks for pointing that out.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Setting posts in concrete is almost always a bad idea.
Have you considered getting DFir that isn't treated?
Excellence is its own reward!
My fence is treated posts, rails and cedar slats. Here, the PT stuff will paint once it's dry .. but then they have just changed the formulas.
I don't know what kind of spindles you need or if they are figured. In L.A. can't you use Grade 1 Pine and paint it up? Almost no holes in that - up here they rot in 12 years.
Quality repairs for your home.
Aaron the Handyman
Vancouver, Canada
I'm the foreman for a small NorCal landscape const. company. We always use redwood for fences. Our local choices for posts are RWD or PT, and the extra $ for RWD is worth it, but then again, since we're so close to it, our RWD is only around $1.90/boardfoot. We always use concrete for the footings; it makes a more rigid post.
RWD isn't what it used to be in terms of quality or decay resistance, so we also always treat the bottom ~28" of the posts. Before 3 years ago we treated with Jasco to improve decay resistance, but since have used liquid epoxy from rotdoctor.com (I think West has it as well). Rotdoctor says paint sticks better to when the wood has been sealed with epoxy, but at $44/gal doing the whole fence may be cost prohibitive.
We rarely paint, almost always use oil based stains. When painting, we use a good primer/sealer that says it blocks tannins, sometimes two coats. The latest FH article about restoring windows says to use shellac based primer if covering wood and epoxy coated wood.
And if at all possible, use a yard that lets you sort and cull. The guys in our yard don't even offer to help-they know how picky we are.
You must not get any freezing weather to do it that way. Here, a post that is only 28" set in will walk right up out of the ground. The post will hold water within the concrete and freeze, splitting the crete unless you have it very big and wrap with steel too.
We set four feet deep and pack the gravel in. Just as solid as crete and lasts longer because it drains water away from the post instead of holding it to.
Regional differences again..
Excellence is its own reward!
Yeah Piffin, the last time the ground froze here in the Sacramento, CA Valley, was around the last Ice Age or so. I don't believe heaving is even a problem in the Lake Tahoe area. I saw a cabin there with column footings that were only 3'x3'x3'.
It's rare around here to find someone using the tamped gravel method; not being experienced with it, I could only guess that concrete may be faster. Even if your footing is only 24-27", plenty deep for our common 6' fences.
faster? You could surely dig the holes faster since I'm going down twicce as deep, but I can't imagine mixing crete faster than I can tamp the gravel back in, with cleanup and all.
Last time I set a row of posts, they were 8x8s down four feet digging into clay with some rocks and a few roots. Dug, set and filled nine with a helper in a six hour day.
By hand..
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Hi,I saw your posting about fences and stains, etc. You are just the man I need to talk to. I'm trying to figure out the best waterproofing and staing products for my redwood fences. I'm in Oakland, CA. The final look I would prefer would be a dark brown color, but from what I understand most tinted oil stains, such as those from Cabot, won't provide enough waterproofing/rot protection on their own. Is this true? What products/combo of products do you recommend? If I can get away with one combo stain and protectant, that would be ideal. But willing to do a two-step application if you think it would be superior.I've used "Green's Clear" on some pieces for protection, but that seems to darken the wood considerably. Sort of gives me the look I want but worried it will change with time. Hard to tell what it will look like with a colored stain over it. Sorry for all the questions but you seemed to be just the expert I needed!Thanks!CharlesP.S. all my posts will be attached to metal Simpson post bases set
in concrete.