I’m a new editor at FHB and have an article about wood screws. Instead of a historical tome, I want this to be as useful as possible. So my questions are: What do you want to know about wood screws? Where do you use them? How often do you just use a dry wall screw ( the duct tape of our age) ?
Thanks everyone!
Jim Kidd
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Replies
Piffin should be along to comment shortly.
Half of good living is staying out of bad situations, the other half gets so complex I don't deal with it.
I never had a problem with character, people have been telling me I was one ever since I was a kid.
Now there's an understatement!<g>
Roar!Half of good living is staying out of bad situations, the other half gets so complex I don't deal with it.
I never had a problem with character, people have been telling me I was one ever since I was a kid.
Now you took your words out of my mouth as I was going to reply roar to you , until I seen your secong post ! Tooche!
Tim Mooney
Forgive my rudness ! Welcome to Breaktime! I dont guess Andy told you about us either huh?
Cheers , and toast to your new job !
Tim
Ha! Poor Piffin gets it left and right doesn't he? Maybe he could use a nickname like 'Timex'. Takes a lickin' and keeps on tickin'. Or a Breaktime community roast. Ha! That'd be a good one.
And Yes, please forgive my previous slight in not welcoming a new editor to breaktime. First post and your right down to business. This is good. Glad you're aboard.
Signed: A contented consumer of FH.Half of good living is staying out of bad situations, the other half gets so complex I don't deal with it.
I never had a problem with character, people have been telling me I was one ever since I was a kid.
I replied to this one in the other thread already.
I think the new boy has the editors job that I applied for this spring. Hi Kidd!
That's fine and dandy and welcome Buddy. Andy knew he couldn't spare me from here.
As to taking a licking,
TICK-TOCK
TICK-TOCK
I did notice that once you all started pointing pout how many posts I had, I bacame a bit of a target. It's a dirty job but somebody's got to do it.
Now while we're editing articles, what other suggestions do we have for him?
All those issues that keep coming up time after time after time....
crown molding's been done.
metal edge and flashing methods on roofs.
metal roof installation.
sound proofing
quality paint jobs
methods to hang SR
new flooring materials (that's one I'd like to see)
cement siding
jump in anytime guys.
Excellence is its own reward!
Edited 10/15/2002 1:41:44 PM ET by piffin
Jim,
First, welcome aboard.
As to the article, think about breaking a screw down into its basic parts...
Type of point
Type of thread
Type of head
Type of driver required to drive the screw
Type of metal
Type of finish
When is one choice better than another for certain applications? I think most people aren't even aware of the myriad screws out there other than the be-all drywall screw.
You could always use the McFeely's catalogue as your (ahem) research tool.<g>
Regards,
Mongo
Mongo,
Thanks for your input, I'll put it to good use.
Best,
Jim
I'd like to know how well they hold in some standard materials; how brittle are they (e.g. how easy are they to break off using a screw-driver); and do they need special pilot holes (i.e. single pilot hole, 2-step pilot, 3-step pilot, counter sinking/boring, etc.).
A price/performamnce chart would be a nice-to-have
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
Personally, I don't use a wood screw for anything anymore, except furniture restoration or when using very fancy, visible hinges on furniture....I use a production screw for pretty much everything else.
Drywall screws only on drywall. Check the archives here for heated discussions.cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
Phill,
I appreciate your good input.
Thanks.
Best, Jim Kidd
Jim, you gonna be doing a road test on Yankee screwdrivers too? Joe H
Also important - how they taste. Seems I'm always holding them in my mouth... Drywall screws turn my lips black and my wife won't kiss me.
Welcome Jim! Are wood screws being used a lot in other than fine woodworking (per Adrian's post)?
The thing of it is, like all things today we are paralyzed with choices. It's no longer a "fries with that," kind of world. It seems, even with hardware, its become, "Idaho or Maine potato, organic, string or steak, reduced fat fried, vegetable oil, or baked, salted-unsalted, french fry world" and screws (for good and bad) have certainly followed suit. Of the different drives (slotted, square, star, Phillips) which do you like best? Do self auguring tips really work? Where are you most inclined to use them? putting down decks? and if so do you prefer galvanized, zinc coated, or stainless? I'd rather hear from you guys who are using the stuff than rely solely on the manufacturer.
Thanks.
The self drilling tiops are absolutely invaluable in terms of time/labor cost. The GRK ones and some others all have lfuted base to the head to countersink themselves in. You get less mushrooming on Trex, less splintering in wood. Only time I need to predrill now is if near the edge of finer woodwork or to countersink for a clean bung plug over.
The positive action on the Torx head is supreme. No more need for beeswax on the tip!
http://www.grkfasteners.com/
These are expensive screws, but well worth it. Anybody who's tried some stays with them. Once word gets out and more places stock them, I expect price will do better.
Another adjacent issue for a sidebar is screwdriver tips. How to find good ones. I don't buy that "100 variety for 3.95" kit but I do think there are differences in the metal. Some days, I can go through several, other times, well, I've got a tip that's been in the gun almost all year for a T-25. Same thing on the Phillips, (actually there are two kinds of that style head) sometimes the tip fractures after three screws, other tips last all day..
Another interesting tidbit, My plimber was commenting the other day that he has to keep expanding his stock of driver tips because every builder is using different screws and he runs into all diff kinds. From his viewpoint, it's a minor complaint. But he haters the Phillips heads the worst. Once it sweats in for a year, a phillips cams out too easy even if it didn't get ruined on original application.
Excellence is its own reward!
Edited 10/15/2002 1:57:04 PM ET by piffin
I personally like the Robertson or square-recess (okay, how many think they are identical, and how many think there's a slight difference between the two ? - I vote for Robertson having a taper while the s-r does not).
While Torx is certainly positive, I think I break too many screws with it..
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
Well I made the switch to Square Drive, and wont go back. Use DEERWOOD brand sold by my import plywood/hardwood dealer. Self drilling tip, "nibs" to countersink. I use to break my driver bits, before breaking a screw off. Head style as is not as important if you use the new impact drivers.
PS An important fact about screws, is if the threads are cut into the shank, or formed on top of shank. Cut threads tend to be weaker.
Your comments on the Phillips cam out problem reminded me of an article I read about the Robertson (square drive to you guys below the 49th) design. GM and Ford were very interested in it, because of automation; however, the old guy Robertson refused to sell the patent to Ford. The car companies eventually settled on the Phillips partly because they will cam out and prevent over torquing. Great when they go in, but murder when you're trying to get them out again.
With the clutches on screw guns, there's less to worry about over-torquing now..
Excellence is its own reward!
Exactly. So the push should be to get away from those horrible things, because an old phillips is VERY hard to remove once it gets set in its ways, and with torque settings, there is no need to rely on the phillips design weakness to be your torque limiting device. All it does is prevent you from being able to apply enough torque to remove it.
I'd like to see a small story on comparison of galvanizing/rustproofing methods for screws- I see SS, hot dipped, double dipped, electroplated, ceramic coated, and also all those other new coatings that appear to be paint but claim to last a ton longer than zinc dipped . . .
Indeed we are getting many more choices, which I like--providing I have time to investigate which is best for which application.
As for your questions: Of the different drives (slotted, square, star, Phillips) which do you like best? Do self auguring tips really work? Where are you most inclined to use them? putting down decks? and if so do you prefer galvanized, zinc coated, or stainless?
I can only say I've stripped more Phillips screws than any other, and look forward to learning more. I'm not a builder or woodworker, just extremely interested in all things Fine Homebuilding.
What I look for.....Robertson drive, self drilling tips are nice, must have countersinking nibs under the head....should be available in treated and bright finishes , and in a variety of lengths and guages....absolutely must have Hi-lo thread or similar. Like I said, a production screw. Traditional wood screws are about as obsolete as it gets, IMO.cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
I'll bite, What's a Robertson drive?.
Excellence is its own reward!
Like Phill said, square drive,but with a taper, so it's a little better, or so the theory goes. We've been calling them Robertsons since 1907 or 1908, when they were invented....there's some legal reason why they have to be 'square drive' in the U.S.cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
Not obsolete for me Adrian, but then like you, I'm a furniture maker, just a slightly different line. Brass slotted woodscrews of the old type are quite normal, but getting hard to find, and the bastard things are getting so uniform. I sometimes need the slot to be a bit off-centre, and the thread to be a bit skew-wiff, as per hand made look. Ah, well, each to their own. On the other hand, I seldom have a use for anything other than either slotted or a plated Philips(sp?) head. Most of my clients don't own a torx or Robertson screwdriver, and slotted brass or steel and the plated Phillips has the right 'look'. Slainte.Website
Yeah, I agree with you, they have their place in fine furniture, and I use them there.....but the quality is gone to heck, in a lot of cases. What I'm talking about is all the umpteen times I use screws when I'm NOT building fine furniture....any cabinetry/construction/shop application......then my hands go right past the hundreds or thousands of wood screws lying about, and go straight to the production screws.cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
Ah, but do you remember "clutch-head" screws ? Per this site http://www.skywaytools.com/Clutchhead.html , they were used by the automakers in the 40's/50's; but, a lot of people will know them from RV's rights up to the 70's (e.g. Starcraft trailers used them extensively)..
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
Hi Jim: Welcome aboard!
A Good book on the history of the screw, and screwdriver:" One Good Turn"
http://www.rickmcginnis.com/books/rybczynski.htm
Google guyNewf
Think First!
Robertson drives are without a doubt the best.
Phillips head does have a place...on drywall screws...where they're supposed to cam out.<g>
I have to 'fess up that I predrill virtually everything w fullers...so I haven't been too fervent over self-drilling tips. they certainly work, but I don't use that specific feature enough to provide feedback.
Exterior I usually use stainless...all decking is ipe, though.
A good sidebar would be the usefullness of the screw extractors that craftsman makes called { screw-out } I've used these about a dozen times now and they really work well.
ANDYSZ2
All of the previous suggestions have been good. One thing to add.
We all know that SR screws stink (unless you're hanging SR) but it would be nice to have a definitive comparative analysis of the shear and pullout strength of SR and the other types of screws (so we can effectively flame those who insist on SR screws in cabinets).
I gotta admit - I'm hooked on McFeely's square drive screws. Use 'em for all kinds of stuff around the house. They drive a heck of a lot better than phillips head screws. And the shanks are bigger, so they don't snap off as easily.
For me, the "auger point" screws don't really do anything. They still split the wood just like any other screw.
Same thing for the screws with "nibs" under the head that are supposed to countersink themselves.
McFeely's has some new screws called "Pro-Max" which look promising. They have thread length made especially for certain conditions - Like a 2 7/8" screw with 1 3/8" of threads for screwing 2X lumber together.
And they have corrosion resistant screws which use a special powder coating to keep the recess from having the little balls of finish in them which makes them useless.
Simpson has come out with a new line of "SDS" scrwews for things like fastening plies of girder trusses together. Don't know anyone that's tried them, but the idea is interesting. I figure it's only a matter of time before they come up with a screw to be used for attaching hangers.
Thats' all I can come up with at the moment............
Education is when you read the fine print. Experience is what you get if you don't.
I've sampled some of those screws at a show. They were very impressive for heavy work. Ugly, but tough. .
Excellence is its own reward!
I'll throw something in here, as a serious DIYer, I get to do all the projects you professionals get to do, but I only get to do them once. I don't get to learn from my mistakes and get better as I go, if I get it wrong i get to live with it. (I read FHB mag and breadtime to listen and learn). For me, and probably other FHBing DIYers, tell me why a drywall screw won't work, and why I need to spend to more money on a "special" screw for a job -(remember I am only going to do this once), I don't want to own a fancy driver that is going to be used only when I get out a fancy screw. I install kitchen cabinets once, I install red wood decking once, I attach plumbing tube clamp thingys once,,,.
This got me thinking (and beasuse a FHB editor posted this thread I'll ask it here) what % of FHB readership is DIYer and what % is pro (you can decide what lever of pro to consider)?
coolcall,
It's all about strength.
Drywall screws don't have it, and other "specialty" screws do. Drywall screws have a fraction of the tensil, shear, and torsional strength that wood screws have.
In other words, if you use drywall screws to hang your upper kitchen cabinets to the walls, keep the countertops clear because your uppers will eventually be taking up that space.
Drywall screws can be used as a generic screw...but not in a sturctural situation.
Also, it doens't take a "fancy driver" to drive square head screws. Sruare drivers are the same price as phillips head drivers.
Some specialty screws are pricey. However, when time is money, better screws can cost less in the long run.
Send away for a catalogue from McFeely's, or go visit their website (if they have one...which I think they do). Good primer on what's out there.
Again, none of us like to waste money. But we sure do hate to waste time.
Thanks Mongo,
No the kitchen cabinets are not hung with drywall screws, and the no the red wood decking isn't held with really long drywall screws either. I through in the examples of things I only do once that I know should have some kind of "special" screw. For everything else there's Mastercard, errr drywall screws. - the ducktape of the screw world-
http://www.mcfeelys.com/bobl Volo Non Voleo Joe's cheat sheet
A quick net search for the most recent technical article on wood screws is copied below .
The biggest surprise to me was that OSB had as much pull thru resistance as Canadian (cheap shot) plywood (but not stuff like baltic birch) Some statements in abstract like "appears to increase with diameter" are really no-brainers. However, it would be good if a FHB article were 'fleshed out' with some technical specifics and test data as in this article, similar to the data Frenchy previously related.
Article title and abstract:
Fastener head pull-through resistance of plywood and oriented strand board
Canadian Journal of Civil Engineering,June 2002, vol. 29, no. 3, pp. 384-388(5)
Chui Y.H.; Craft S.
Abstract:
A nailed or screwed sheathing-to-timber joint may fail in one of two possible modes when subjected to a load applied along the axis of the fastener: fastener head pull-through of the sheathing material and shank withdrawal from the timber. Currently, the Canadian timber
design code does not provide specifications to check the first mode of failure. In this study, tests were conducted to determine the head pull-through strengths of some common hammer and power-driven nails and wood screws in plywood and in oriented strand board. These are
compared with the calculated shank withdrawal strengths of the same fasteners from timber, assuming it to belong to the Douglas fir–larch species group. The test results show that there is
no significant difference in strengths between plywood and oriented strand board. Head pull-through strength appears to increase with fastener diameter. The major conclusion reached is that, except for small size nails (less than 2 in. long), fastener head pull-through in sheathing prevails over shank withdrawal from timber in sheathing-to-timber joints when loaded axially.Key words: nail, wood screw, head pull-through, withdrawal strength, timber, design capacities.
Here is some test data on screws from GRK
http://www.grkfasteners.com/technical_data.htm
Today I picked up cabinets from the lumberyard and asked for screws to hang them with. The guy tried to give me drywall screws. When I complained that I couldn't do that, he said that drywall screws are what everyone uses.
This is the same yard where they frequently complain about the poor quality of work that is so often done.
I found some #10 wood screws and used those.
Rich Beckman
Hey Jim, Welcome aboard.
Unfortunately I dont share your interest in this topic. I try to use screws designed for the application at hand. Should the need arise I will research a particular topic, but an entire article on screws really doesnt do much to garner my interest. Maybe a "whats the difference?" piece...but an entire article? Good luck none-the-less!
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"
Welcome. Maybe you could delve into the Robertson/Phillips controversy/scandal....square is better AND Canadian; THAT'S where I heard the REAL problem started......keep'em going in,and out, no wear, better by far,it also, from my memory has patent issuesattached to it. Cheers,Phil( with one 'L').If it is to be, 'twil be done by me..
I would suggest you include some good pre-drilling or piloting practices for the article on screws. Hardwoods, softwoods, end grain, etc.
Jeff Up North
For framing applications, my structural engineer loves the Simpson SDS screws. They are easy to shoot in with a 1/2 " drill and a 3/8" nut driver. They are self tapping and much easier to apply than the hardware that requires bolts. They are showing up on holddowns, column bases and lots of other hardware. He also specs them for wood to wood connections like connecting 4x valley rafters to a common at say a gable dormer. After the Loma Prieta Earthquake, the amount of holddowns and hardware has dramatically increased. Those screws make the work go a little quicker.
I hate when I encounter a slotted screw. I will only tolerate them on stuff like retro door hardware where you line up the slot just so.. Recently I encountered a slotted screw in a heating register installation. I was working overhead while holding the register while trying to start a slotted screw. You can imagine what I said when the tiny screw slipped and fell to the floor.
A lot of so called deck screws or gold diggers are just glorified drywall screws. For decking I would use nails before I used gold diggers. It doesn't take much torque to snap off that bugle head. Fast tap is a brand locally available that makes nice strong self tapping screws. You never have to worry about snapping off the head. I use the torque settings on my driver to prevent the screw from stripping out and not to prevent the head from twisting off.
If I could dictate the world, there would only be square drive and nut drive screws.