There I is reading “seven steps to net-zero energy usage”(pg 54) by Betsy Pettit and I get in a thinkatational mode. Step 1 is “upgrade the mechanical”
Duh? methinks.
Any idiot has gotta think that step one should be to ID and fix energy leaks.
Most construction folks wouldn’t likely disagree with me, but folks keep paying for energy audits, and I’ve actually been present when a few where done,so I got a bit of a clue as to what these audits can be like.
30 years ago Diamond cutting wheels were a costly item, now they are almost disposable.
Same thing goes for energy audit equipment. In the 70’s, to get a thermo scan of yer house cost you thousands. It’s likely a lot cheaper now, but there’s an even cheaper methodology. You get an infrared remote reading thermometer. Last year cost you a hunnerd bucks, this year, I’ve seen them around 35 bucks. Bout what an average homeowner would pay for a good hammer.
It’s midnight , -20 outside and the wind is blowing you feel a draft, all you gotta do is pull out yer IR thermometer and do a walkabout and with a little luck you can ID the source of the draft.
For me,lived in the house for 5 years ( house is 10 years old), I is playing with this new toy one windy cold winter night trying to ID cold corners, leaky windows, and I get into the furnace room. Start scanning—a cuppla degrees difference on the wall temps but generally around 45-50F, but then as I pass over a beam, I get a -20 reading.
The device was similar to those in this link…
http://www.testequipmentdepot.com/extech/thermometers/ir.htm
I been in that room a thousand times before, done work in it, but what this little -20 reading did was make me get up and look up and behind the beam, and there was a hole in the sheathing, covered by the siding, but the wind was whistling in.
A tad of spray foam(with the flammable propellant) and that energy leak was fixed. It was a major cold infiltration, and I never woulda seen it without this.
I seen a lot of energy wastitational scenarios over the years in many homes, and to me these remote reading IR thermometers should be standard homeowner equipment. But if folks never vacuum the dust out of their refrigerators or replace their weatherstripping on the doors, my hopes ain’t high that I’m gonna get any converts. MThis post is more like preaching to the converted. But I don’t know that the digital IR thermometer’s utilization in the home environment has reached even them.
Certainly it’s not mentioned in the most recent FHB article. Nor have I seen it mentioned in any of the pop press publications I read.
The caveat to that is that folks gotta read the instructions- both for the thermometer and the spray foam to fix the leaks.
To me square one for energy conservation is to ID the sources of heat loss and inefficiencies To do that you have to be able to easily measure temp differentials, and this device is the only inexpensive way I’ve found to do it.
Oh ya, once you get all the drafts ID’d and fixed, the laser will let you drive yer cats nuts from the comfort of the sofa…..
And to put this all in perspective, I’ve paid more for cat toys than this energy saving device cost.
Eric
in Calgary
Replies
Eric,
Good sleuthing! You wrote, "Certainly it's not mentioned in the most recent FHB article. Nor have I seen it mentioned in any of the pop press publications I read." You should subscribe to Energy Design Update. Four years ago, in the April 2004 issue, a review of infrared thermometers appeared. From that article:
“A thermal imaging (infrared) camera is an invaluable home-performance diagnostic tool, but not every contractor can afford one. Those who balk at paying $10,000 to $20,000 for an infrared camera may be unaware of an inexpensive alternative: a handheld infrared thermometer. Infrared thermometers have been dropping in price, and several manufacturers now offer models priced under $100. …
Although no substitute for an infrared camera, an infrared thermometer, in the hands of an intelligent investigator, can provide similar data, revealing hot spots and cold spots in walls, ceilings, and duct systems.
Cold surfaces near closed windows and doors can reveal infiltration problems; sudden changes in the temperature of a duct may indicate leakage or insulation problems. Infrared thermometers can also quickly confirm floor-to-ceiling temperature stratification problems.”
A tad of spray foam(with the flammable propellant) and that energy leak was fixed.
Ah, just goes to show you that any tool in the hands of the wrong person can be trouble.
Unless that is a direct-vent, sealed combustion furnace, it's got to get a supply of combustion air from somewhere. Now that you've sealed up the nearest supply port, it will have to draw air from a more distance source and create a cold draft where none existed before.
You didn't eliminate infiltration - you just moved it farther away.
Good work, Sherlock.
Solar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
Unless that is a direct-vent, sealed combustion furnace, it's got to get a supply of combustion air from somewhere.
You didn't eliminate infiltration - you just moved it farther away.
And from 1000 miles away, you know this?
Good work, Sherlock.
Joe H
And from 1000 miles away, you know this?
Sorry, I didn't realize that furnaces had different needs for combustion air in different parts of the country.
My mistake.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
Electric Furnace is always a possibility as well. Just the Facts Ma'am, Just the facts: Sgt. Joe Friday LA PD
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
The house is only 10 years old. Every furnace I know of installed in the last ten years has outside combustion air provided to a sealed combustion unit.
Good thing we live on opposite sides of the country. We probably wouldn't agree on ski hill experiences either.
I see no trouble with filling in a hole behind the siding with foam. I do it all the time.
I have the attic open in my house as I rebuild one bedroom. I had my electrician in to rewire the lighting in the front of the house while they could get in without destruction. They left holes everywhere. I did not worry about drawing in air for the furnace! I sealed the suckers with my foam gun. I'll be sealing off the space by the masonry chimney chase with mineral wool and flashing tomorrow.
I would rather build into my annual budget for a heat exchange duct system than have a hole in my wall driving up my heating bill.
Every house I work on gets SOME foam or other type of penetration sealing on it as part of an energy conservation awareness system.Quality repairs for your home.
AaronR ConstructionVancouver, Canada
I see no trouble with filling in a hole behind the siding with foam. Every house I work on gets SOME foam or other type of penetration sealing on it as part of an energy conservation awareness system.
You completely missed the point.
I wasn't arguing against sealing infiltration points. But if an atmospheric combustion furnace needs a combustion air supply, it's far preferable to get that air from the furnace room than from the living room or bedrooms, drawing that air throughout the entire house in order to reach the combustion chamber.
Moving the leak farther from the furnace saves no heating cost, but creates drafts which might lead an occupant to turn up the thermostat, resulting in higher heating costs.
P.S. I don't ski.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
Edited 3/16/2008 12:44 pm ET by Riversong
RS, i believe you missed my point as well.
Having a hole in an area which is not directly related to a requirement for make-up air is poor building practice, and I'm sure you would agree.
For the most part, new houses I have seen are only better than old houses because materials have the benefit of newer technology. Poor craftsmanship is poor craftsmanship.
As I said: eliminate all the leaks you can find, and design in a ventilation make-up system using heat exchangers where you need it.
That's not moving the air entry further away; it's putting it where it's needed and getting it out of the living space.Quality repairs for your home.
AaronR ConstructionVancouver, Canada
i believe you missed my point as well.
It was just that your point wasn't relevant to the original post, which was about using a clever tool to find and seal air leaks in an existing structure, without considering the overall impact of doing so.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
Riversong,
Do you recommend against sealing up uncontrolled air leaks?
Ron
Do you recommend against sealing up uncontrolled air leaks?
Et tu? Read my response above to AaronRosenthal.
For new construction, it's irresponsible not to build as tight an envelope as possible and then design in a ventilation system to supply a minimum of 0.25 air changes per hour (more in a toxic house).
For existing housing, sealing infiltration leaks is the least expensive strategy for reducing heating costs and its not likely that an old building can be made tight enough to compromise indoor air quality. But to maximize comfort, seal leaks first in bedrooms and living spaces to reduce drafts and in kitchens, baths and laundry areas to reduce moisture exfiltration, as well as any penetrations into the attic to reduce stack effect losses and potential moisture problems.
However, short of a blower door test, there's no way to determine whether a house has adequate natural air exchange beyond monitoring indoor relative humidity. In a loose house, the more leakage the drier the air. In a tight house, the humidity tends to get too high. 40% RH is a good target.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
Riversong,
OK, I agree completely with what you said in this post, but there was nothing in the original post to indicate whether the burner, if there is a burner, has or has not got a dedicated air supply.
There was nothing there to justify you jumping on him implying that he was incompetent or ignorant.
And, that's vous, to you.
Ron
There was nothing there to justify you jumping on him implying that he was incompetent or ignorant.
And there was nothing in my post which suggested the OP was either incompetent or ignorant, only that he may have made a foolish mistake thinking he was being clever.
We've likely all done that at some point (such as your seeing demons where none exist).
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
Robert,Your response brings up something I've noticed in my discussions about tightening up houses. Most people (lay, non-cnstruction people) seem to think in terms of stopping infiltration when it comes to tightening houses. I tend to think more in terms of controlling exfiltration. Ignoring wind-driven infiltration for the moment, isn't infiltration largely a supply of make-up air demanded by the exfiltration of warmer, more bouyant air via leakage in the building envelope? That demand can also come from combustion appliances exhausting air out the chimney.We can't stop the combustion appliances from consuming air and shouldn't prevent them from exfiltrating their harmful combustion by-products. But we can isolate that demand-supply loop from the rest of the envelope and then work on cutting the demand for make-up air for other areas of exfiltration from the building envelope.I start my air sealing-efforts at the top of the thermal/air boundary and work my way down. Plugging a hole, if it's below the neutral pressure plane of the building will only re-distribute the demand for make-up air. My goal is to plug holes working from the top down, pushing the neutral pressure plane as far down the envelope as is practically possible.Steve
So what you are saying is that my house BLOWS...That's why it SUCKS!
Ignoring wind-driven infiltration for the moment, isn't infiltration largely a supply of make-up air demanded by the exfiltration of warmer, more bouyant air via leakage in the building envelope?
Sure, but we can't ignore the diagonal pressure plane caused by wind.
It's kind of like the decision of whether to seal the walls at the inside or the outside - either one will work to stop air movement.
But, because wind will tilt the neutral plane, and because of moisture/mold and radon infiltration issues from basements, a better strategy is to seal leaks high and low, basements and attics.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
>>It's kind of like the decision of whether to seal the walls at the inside or the outside - either one will work to stop air movement.<<Not exactly the same. Pressure dynamics work to exhaust bouyant conditioned air out the top of the house, the bottom not so much. Plug a hole at the bottom, the heated air will still exit the holes at the top, depressurizing the house as well. Much the same as putting a lid on bucket with a hole in the bottom won't stop the water from leaving. May slow it down a little bit and make it glug on the way out, but eventually it's going to leave.By sealing leaks low, are you saying to seal the basement off from the living space?Steve
By sealing leaks low, are you saying to seal the basement off from the living space?
I was refering to sealing the foundation, sills, band joists, etc. But sealing between floors would be a good strategy if the basement is unconditioned space and needs air for combustion appliances.
And I think my analogy holds. Air can't exit unless it can enter to replace it. And the less infiltration (and less heat loss through windows, et al) the less thermal stratification which drives the stack effect.
I agree, though, that the ceiling/attic junction is the most important place to seal.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
Robert,>>I agree, though, that the ceiling/attic junction is the most important place to seal.<<And I agree that stopping infiltration is a good thing, keeping in mind the need for combustion air and for adequate air-exchage rates. All I'm saying is that people seem to fixate on keeping cold air out, when keeping warm air in is an essential, and I would argue more critical part of the program. There is no such thing as cold, only an absence of heat. >>Air can't exit unless it can enter to replace it<<No house is so tight that there aren't places for make-up air to get in. And tightening the places where the heated air is most likely to exit (the top of the envelope) will reduce the suction pulling make-up air in through the cracks. Though wind will of course drive it in at times. But when it does, the house will become slightly pressurized, which it will be unable to sustain once the wind pressure subsides. The pressure imbalance will eventually drive air back out of the house. Since the air in the house will be stratified to some degree, wouldn't it be better to to have the pressure relief at the bottom?, keeping the stratified warmer air in the house as long as possible?Steve
Edited 3/16/2008 5:03 pm by mmoogie
And there was nothing in my post which suggested the OP was either incompetent or ignorant
That is exactly what you implied, based on your assumption as to furnace type.
Your usual arrogance shows again.
Joe H
The only arrogance here is your making unwarranted interpretations of my words, declaring them to be THE TRUTH, and then refusing to take responsibility for your own perceptions.
All the cheap tract homes I worked on 15 years ago either had sealed combustion, or at the very least, make up air duct work to the furnace room.Maybe in the south they don't worry about such things, but the OP is in the Dakotas...I would think Riversongs comments are irrelevant...but I could be wrong (though that would be absolutely shocking ;o) )We are all speculating here, at least, which should be reason to be to ready to eat crow.I hope the OP sets us straight.
Very handy little gadgets. Mine was $35. Primary reason I bought it was to scan various machine parts to forecast problems. Very interesting to use in a house also.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!