I have a customer that needs an engineer to advise them on some repair work. (When I get some pics, I’ll post them). Problem is, I’m out in a rural area. I’ve got a couple of leads, but I might have to find someone from a quite a distance away.
How do I go about doing that?
Replies
Call them on the phone.
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
What is this telephone you speak of?:)Yes-it may come down to getting the yellow pages of cities a couple of hundred miles away and calling. Guess I'm just brainstorming for ideas.
Well, I've been talking with a pair of PE's near Atlanta, then recommended to the client that what he really needs is a particular PE in Seattle. Georgia's gotten weird about building permits for untraditional homes. While they don't require licensing for GC's.
How complicated is your issue? Generally, photos/description posted here will result in solutions. State stamps get more complicated.
PAHS works. Bury it.
Edited 6/11/2008 10:00 am ET by VaTom
> While they don't require licensing for GC's.<
that changes 7/1
that changes 7/1
What took so long? One PE told me y'all were the last state.
How long have they been requiring an engineer's stamp on simple residential construction? Structural and HVAC.
I'm used to dealing with building officials who have no idea what I'm doing, but requiring a stamp sure complicates the issue when you can't find a PE who has a clue. PAHS works. Bury it.
when you can't find a PE who has a clue.
Must not be looking very hard - a PE "without a clue" would not be a PE, they couldn't pass the test.
Must not be looking very hard - a PE "without a clue" would not be a PE, they couldn't pass the test.
Not quite.
As I mentioned, 2 were consulted, who knew a network of others. I was brought into the conversation late. Far as any of them know, there's no PE in Ga who understands heat movement through mass. Or apparently wants to learn.
I believe it, after hearing the misconceptions of those two. One all but called me a liar. I'd done preliminary work already. The BI knew more from his reading, wasn't concerned about the house over-heating (unlike the PE's, who couldn't understand why he wanted to see heating capacity when over-heating was all they could imagine). BI unfortunately has to see a stamp. Otherwise would have no problem using my numbers.
Which conforms with my experience here. Which is PE's want to sell what they know. Anything different, forget it. Broad generalization, 100% of my experience. This is common, across the country. May not apply to you.
I've tried to get thin-shell concrete engineering from several PE's. Absolutely not. One in Idaho, one in California (a bridge designer) will do thin-shell. I know bigger firms can, or they wouldn't be designing airports. For heat movement, I only know of the one guy in Seattle. There's been much discussion in thin-shell circles over the problem.
Either of them something you want to tackle? There's work available. I even tried to get my retired BIL, certified for public works in Arizona, interested. Nope, much as he finds my houses interesting. One of the Atlanta guys did give me a number for a PE there who "might" know something about thin-shell.PAHS works. Bury it.
Which is PE's want to sell what they know. Anything different, forget it.
That's true - one of the rules for PE is that they can only do work in areas where they are trained and skilled. Not to say it doesn't happen, but PEs are prohibited from doing work outside their area of expertise. Which is why I can't help you, unfortunately - it's not my field.
I thought you were making a general comment about PEs - I missed the part where you were talking about a specific field of practice. Sorry about that.
Misunderstandings happen. As do explanations.
My primary gripe is with structural engineers who don't want to deal with well-established structures. Like 50 yo thin-shell. I know the guys who were designing then died, but that's no excuse for the expertise to be lost. I've got the books, lack the knowledge to understand them.
The reason the bridge engineer will talk thin-shell is 'cause his father did a lot of it, furthering the legacy. The Idaho guy apparently makes a very nice living, with almost no competition.
Then the Atlanta PE's who claim they're HVAC engineers (in addition to structural), but refuse to deal with a slightly different type of HVAC (passive).
What happened to service? Clients are willing to pay.
I asked my preferred local structural PE about a New Zealand technique, used within a hundred miles from here, of displacing fill with polystyrene blocks to reduce loading. He said he'd heard of the technique used successfully, would have nothing to do with it. So we built single-story, with engineering I already had.
As I know almost nothing about you, none of this rant is personal. Care to enlighten us as to what your field is? Surely not glass block walls... <VBG>PAHS works. Bury it.
What happened to service? Clients are willing to pay.
I can't say for certain, but I suspect that liability concerns are a primary consideration. If a PE does a design for you and the structure fails, he is liable, often even if the contractor did not build it to the design. Prime example of this is the convention center in Pittsburgh - recently a section of the floor dropped to the roadway below. Turns out the contractor "saved a few pennies" because it was "overengineered". Nonetheless, the PE was held liable (the contractor too, but the PE was also held liable, even though his design was fine).
It's gotten so bad that some people practicing engineering in my discipline (electrical) are refusing to get licensed. They have to be careful not to call themselves "engineers" (which is illegal if one is unlicensed, except for the industrial exemption) and to avoid the "practice of engineering", which is clearly defined by law. For many fields within electrical engineering, it's not that difficult to avoid the "practice of engineering", as long as you aren't working on anything that affects public safety.
Care to enlighten us as to what your field is?
Sure. My degrees are in electricl engineering, primarily in high speed digital logic and communications. I have done power engineering work (hence the license - it's required for that), but mostly have worked in the defense, consumer electronics, communications, television, and industrial fields. So I have designed things like mil spec comm systems, cell phones, cordless telephones, factory automation products, HDTV transmitters and receivers, etc.
I am fairly well versed in structural engineering of residential structures, but I don't practice that professionally. Mechanical engineering, too, but mostly both of those have arisen out of my own curiousity and "issues" faced with a series of old houses.
A great source for referrals for structural types is the eng-tips forum. However, they insist that one be an engineer to access the forum and are pretty agressive about enforcing that policy. If you would email me a brief description of what you are looking for, I could post it for you and forward the replies.
Thanks.
Liability concerns are well-founded, but that's precisely what E&O insurance is for, no? Just gotta get paid enough to cover your overhead and make sure you don't stray from your coverage. That's the business part, not engineering. Why many, like my BIL, never seriously considered self-employment.
I haven't needed to show any engineering to a plan approver here since the first house. That's why I was surprised about Ga. Structural proof makes sense when you've got a 2-300 ton roof. HVAC's another matter.
This is passive annual heat storage (PAHS) at work. Requires a very large insulated mass. Possibly the Atlanta engineer would have accepted my numbers on heat loss and gain for the house, but he insisted on the same for ventilation earth tubes which I don't know how to perform.
The plan approver there didn't ask for anything but proof that the house wouldn't get cold. That's easy. Unfortunately proof of earth tube performance was required to get the engineer's stamp, which the state blindly requires. Earth tubes have other, far more important, issues than heat loss/gain, but nobody's officially concerned.
PAHS and earth tubes are the critical features. The proposed house is very similar to mine, reinforced concrete with bar joists. Common commercial construction. Thin-shell concrete is a separate issue. I'll send you an email later, thanks. PAHS works. Bury it.
Our local AHJ requires a NY architect or engineer's seal on prints for anything residential over 1500 sf. I don't have a clue about how they justified the threshold.
As with anything political, there is an "old boys' club" syndrome happening, in that certain "trusted" plans designers' prints are OK without the wet seal.
I did a set of prints for a guy here building a 75' x 45' two-story-at-one-end shop/warehouse/garage with apartment in the second story, with ICF walls extending 12 feet above grade, seismic considerations, etc., and got a local guy to review my work and do the stamp and seal. He was not in the yellow pages.
Phase two for the project is the house, and the owner likes this, for which I am doing a cost study, just to see how things might work. At 35 feet in height, but at only 1,460 sf of finish, we won't need a review and seal, and the permit costs are a whole lot less than if we did it at 1501 sf.
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"A stripe is just as real as a dadgummed flower."
Gene Davis 1920-1985
Sometime in the 70's, an existing house had a timberframe gluelam structure built over it and added to the side. Quite a few years back, the ridge started sagging and posts were added to correct it.The job I am doing for them involves taking a sliding door out and replacing it with a window. The door will not open because of weight from above. The pressure is from a rotting exterior gluelam post which was put down off center on a pad without a base. The post holds an exterior beam which is twisting and is toenailed to the post. The post is rotting and has belled out and settled down approx. 3".I need someone to spec out what connectors, post and base I need to use. I need an estimate of weight and a good jacking strategy. The homeowners have noticed some settling;dips in the floor that didn't used to be there etc. Given the history of the house and that it has so many bad construction details, they are spooked and would like to have someone assess the whole structure.I'll try to get some pics posted tonight. We're out in the sticks without any real Code/permit issues, it just has to be done right.
Craig, distance shouldn't be an issue unless site visit is required.
We had a local PE do drawings about how to remove some critical posts in a 19th century barn. He took our information, gave us a drawing. Worked fine if slightly odd-looking with the steel added. I learned quite a bit about fasteners. PE never set foot on the property.
Maybe woodturner could help you out. I'm no carp, zero experience with gluelams. Reinforced concrete and structural steel I understand better.
Bit of a challenge, eh? Looking at the structure as a whole, fixing everything, sounds like an overdue plan.
A GC buddy here dragged me out to see the remains of somebody's attempt to meld 2 historic houses. He likes me to consult 'cause I have a very different perspective from him. Together we do pretty well.
After a bunch of head-scratching, I inquired about the budget. $100k. I asked what the highest priority was 'cause that clearly wasn't going very far. Now, an ongoing project whenever the HO has an extra $50k or so. Foundation and roof are now fine, drainage good. Almost unbelievable how much work something like that can require.
You've got a good start by understanding what you don't know, need help with. Looking forward to the photos. Even if I won't be much help.PAHS works. Bury it.
Talked to my lumberyard guy. He said some of his suppliers might be able to spec out the post repair, but the homeowners might still need to meet with someone on the rest of the house.Sounds like you have an interesting project going.Thanks for the advice and encouragement. Here's the pics. I thought I took enough pics to cover everything. Gotta remember the camera doesn't see everything I do.First one is a wide shot of the house.(I feel like I'm showing slides of a really, really boring vacation)Second shot is the 7x7 post. The 7x16 rafter beams(which I don't have a picture of) are notched over the 3x16 beam. The beam is attached to the post with 3 or 4 toenails. The beam is out of plumb by 7/8. I don't know if it rotated somehow or if it was always that way. I'm uneasy about jacking on the out of plumb beam.Last shot is the rot on the bottom of the post. Don't know how deep the pad is. Looks like it hasn't settled any.
Yeah, I try to have fun. Rez likes to razz me about once attempting to use an '81 Oldsmobile for a cupola (electric windows!). No engineer involved on that one, which ultimately wasn't successful. But nobody got hurt. Currently in storage, awaiting a shorter building. Maybe thin-shell.
I digress.
My first rule, when attempting the difficult, is redundancy. Have a backup in place. Less chance for catastrophe.
Can't say I learned a lot from your photos, other than it's a nicer house than I expected. Good news for the budget. Very good that you realize the initial installation wasn't necessarily plumb and level. Doors that don't work are another matter.
Please keep us apprised with your progress. Promises to be an interesting thread. PAHS works. Bury it.
'81' Olds cupola--I'm thinking backyard Drive-in movie screen.I didn't realize what a sorry job I did of taking pictures until I downloaded them on the computer.I hear you on the redundancy. I don't want to go from hero to zero in a few seconds.If it were just a matter of replacing the post, it wouldn't bother me so much. It's that I am suspicious of how it was built in the first place and don't fully understand what is going on with the door being pinched.Thanks
'81' Olds cupola--I'm thinking backyard Drive-in movie screen.
OK, risking further digression, here it is, dangling from a cable. Lacked a few inches of successfully making the ascent. Further tensioning the cable started to deconstruct my rooftop tower. Oak's strong, the Cat was stronger, cable did fine.
Caution is good. Those who don't have any idea of what they don't know are dangerous. You've got movement, something caused it. Unlikely it was the gluelam experiencing mc movement. <G> You need to follow the load path.
Woodturner, maybe you shouldn't look. LOL It was a day my 2 buddies and I treasure. But the remainder of the old boat was heavier than I'd thought.
PAHS works. Bury it.
Would've been grand. Everybody meets guests at the door. Not many honk, roll down the window and wave.
LOL... wrong tense.
Will be, not "would've". It'll happen. Just need a shorter building. That one has 4 floors. No idea what I was thinking... But originally planned for another half floor on top. I really don't have a land shortage.
Was gonna cut off the whole back end but then I remembered a MadMax movie scene (Thunderdome). Access through a car trunk. I removed the pan there too, gonna be a roof hatch.
Caution: cutting a floor pan off a car is an incredibly nasty fire-prone job. I set up fans, wore a serious respirator, and liberally used a fire extinguisher (cut 4", extinguish, cut 4", ...).
No chance, after all that, I won't use it.PAHS works. Bury it.
Sawzall goes through cars like butter.
Joe H
Gummed up badly on this one.PAHS works. Bury it.
Love to see it when your done.
Find me a local tire baler? LOL That's a technology I'm not going to invest in, but find fascinating. Perfectly adapted to subterranean construction. I've discussed it with one baler manufacturer, who's helped a Colorado guy with his new-fangled tire houses.
Now that's an engineering nightmare. <G>
It'll be an interesting thread. DW tells me I should live so long as to realize all my plans...
Hey, Va pays $1/tire to end-users. This is serious stuff.PAHS works. Bury it.
How are the bales used? Have they been used in places that have codes?
Hey guys,
There are different balers, making different sized bales. Mikey Shealy http://www.touchtheearthranch.com/tirebales.htm pioneered using them for houses. He's a tire-house fan, who was always looking for an alternative to pounding the tires. Several links from his site.
His bales are ~ 100 tires, 2000 lbs, 5'x5'x2½'. Mikey designs houses from his place near Colorado Springs. Far as I know, most of the houses are in Colorado. Permits approved in Las Animas and Ouray counties. They talk about 21 bales/semi, costing $450 delivered 280 miles, likely more with today's diesel prices.
He's had structural engineering done and tested the bales by intentional band breaking. They don't move much once compressed. My interest wasn't primarily residential, at least to start. Struck me as ideal to bury.
I spoke with the guy who manufactures the balers that make Mikey's bales. Nothing anywhere close to me. Tried hard to talk me into buying a baler, he's gung-ho on promoting bales for residential construction. Makes sense, as he sells balers. But not to me.
I've got access and zoning issues here, and don't really need another enterprise. Much as I'd sure like to get some bales. First time I'd seriously considered building with tires. There are 2 more-or-less earthships here, both incredibly expensive before they got completed, after suffering from seriously bad planning.
The concept of Virginia paying me $10k or so to permanently use 100 tire bales gets my attention. Don't imagine I'd have any trouble getting a permit here. PAHS works. Bury it.
How much does one of those weigh?
Do they come out in blocks, or rectangular thingees? How many tires to a bundle?
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Doesn't look like something that would blow away?
Joe H
The pressure is from a rotting exterior gluelam post which was put down off center on a pad without a base. The post holds an exterior beam which is twisting and is toenailed to the post. The post is rotting and has belled out and settled down approx. 3".
Is that the post in the picture? I can't see any 3" movement, where is it?
Is that beam that is twisting a solid timber that has taken a twist? Or is it tipping because the post is leaning ? Looks like it droops along the eve, are the last 3 beams all low, or is it just the pic?
What is supporting the ridge? That beam next to the chimmney the ridge? Is there any movement there? The siding looks ok as far as I can tell in the little picture.
Which slider is binding, looks like there are 2? Is the far post done any differently? Are the posts both plumb, or is the closest leaning toward the ridge?
Joe H
The post is the closest one. There are blocks which once supported the decking nailed to it and are now about 3" below it. When checked with a laser, that's about the same difference between the post heights. The post is about 1 1/4" out of plumb (tipped toward the ridge). The beam is rotated away from the ridge. The rafters are notched--not birds mouths, but notched around the beam.The other post is plumb and has no rot at the bottom. Same details, but in protected drier spot. The beam there is tipped outwards, but not as bad. I can't see any signs of movement there.The beam under the ridge puzzles me. I think it might have been added when additional posts were put under the ridge after it started sagging.The sliding door with the problem is the closet to the post with the sagging rafters over it. The beam is a glue lam. I'm thinking it was never really plumb. I think you're right, the post tipping toward the ridge is making it worse.
The pic labeled rot is puzzling. The post looks mostly intact, I don't see 3" of rotted material that would account for the appearance of the eve.
Has that concrete sunk that much? Seems it would sink in the corner due to the way it's loaded, but it looks to be level.
It's a mystery, but if it was mine I'd be replacing the post, maybe get it up off the ground a bit so it's not getting wet. Looks like some staining in the background, although nothing extreme.
Looks like a sidewalk along the bottom of the porch, is it funneling water under the porch?
Joe H
I'm puzzled by it too. The stud wall behind the post is setting on a stem wall. The concrete the post is setting on appears to have been placed at the same time and there is no difference in height between them.I brushed away a lot of powdery,punky wood to look at the concrete. I'm guessing that as the post rots, the weight mushrooms the rot out.The deck joists are supported by an untreated stud wall with plywood and synthetic stone over it. In some places, either the sidewalk funneled the water under or there is a leak in the stone which the mortar is falling out of. Some places the stud wall is good, some bad. Another problem which needs to be addressed.The porch deck is 2x6 with spaces between. With a little wind, rain or snow can get directly to the post. The post is on the N. side of the house and likely has drifts against the wall and piled on the deck.Good questions. It's making me think things through.
Seriously, Blue, this is a real issue with some people.
I have found that certain specialized services do not advertise in the Yellow Pages. Even the business versions. Even internet searches don't produce.
They are busy enuff with word of mouth referrals or in house projects, that access to them is near impossible.
I found in S. California there was a Blue Book of such people. Expensive little sucker, but worth every penny.
There in Michigan, I recall the Thomas Register.
After being in Denver for six years, I still have not found any version here. Maybe IMERC has one?
Someone wants to actually find an engineer?I was thinking let them stay hidden
Barry E-Remodeler
Try posting an ad on Craigslist.
It's kind of funny about these sort of things. If I start cold calling engineers, I expect them to wonder about me. If someone answered a craigslist I would wonder about them even if they were very good.Technology and the ability to deal with people at a distance sure complicates things.
Your Craigslist ads must attract a different class of professional. Around here, it's a very legitimate and wide ranging way to find professionals in every field. Sure, there are some flakes, but that's true even in the Yellow Pages.
KS may be different, but in CA, anyone offering professional services on Craigslist has to provide a license number - and it's just a couple of mouse clicks to the appropriate licensing board to verify the license.
I may have to get with the 21st century. Thanks.
Assuming that you are in Kansas, call the Kansas Society of Professional Engineers and explain what type of engineer you are looking for.
Great! Thanks
Craig, try this website: http://sections.asce.org/kansas/kansASCE.html.
For what you are asking, start with the Structural Technical Group Chair. His email and phone number are listed there. I would drop him a quick email to see if he is aware of anyone in your area that could help your customer.
Hope that helps.
Impossible is an opinion.
Thanks, I think it will help a lot. I got a referral but he would have 8-9 hrs of windshield time. Maybe this will help me find someone closer.