I have an access lane to the rear of my property that runs through a flat low area- and becomes almost impassable for most of the Spring and following any heavy rain. Soil is heavy clay, and because of the lay of the land, improving drainage significantly isn’t really possible.
Because of the placement of septic lines and field (not to mention trees and landscaping), I can’t really relocate the lane elsewhere.
I need to improve the lane for more dependable vehicle access year round (need to get back there at most several times a month, usually much less), but don’t want to spend a fortune doing so. My sense- possibly wrong- is that just dumping lots and lots of stone would be expensive, and it wouldn’t take long for it to sink in, resulting in expensive annual maintenance.
I’d like to keep this low $ and DIY. I have a small, tired dumptruck and a healthy 4wd loader/backhoe to work with.
Thanks
Replies
I have that wonderful clay soil as well. It goes from gunky when wet to brick when dry. I have about a 400' drive that was put in using just road base material. I think the key is to put in drainage pipes under to keep water from going over all the time. I had some sinking in the lower spots but a few more inches of base fixed this. Road base material is about $125/ 8yds delivered in TX.
Is this "low, flat area" the lowest on the lot?
What I getting at is: can you dig a drain line from the drive area to someplace else?
Is there a municipal drain anywhere close by?
Is this "low, flat area" the lowest on the lot?
Yup, its as low as I go, at the bottom of gradual slope.
What I getting at is: can you dig a drain line from the drive area to someplace else?
The lane is on the edge of my property and is the beginning of a fairly flat area for several hundred yards, all of which are on state land- and digging on state land is a no-no.
Is there a municipal drain anywhere close by?
I'm in a very rural area- no municipal drains anywhere in this township!
The existing lane was cleared by the previous owner, who also built the shed in back that I need access to. I have no idea what his reasoning for placing the shed back there was, but I think making the road usable should be cheaper than building a new building.
=====Zippy=====
Is the road the WHOLE flat, low area or is it just part of the flat, low area?If it's only part of the low, flat area, I would suggest planting some deep rooted wetland prairie plants (it IS full sun, right?) in the areas that aren't the road. You should see serious improvement in a season, especially if you put in forb plugs.Cupplant, queen-of-the-prairie, bigbluestem, grey-headed coneflower, purple coneflower and indiangrass are some of my recommendations. Cupplant has a root system that can extend 10 feet. The grasses have a fibrous root system that can also reach that depth. Should help break thru the clay enough let the water perculate to the aquifer, where it belongs.It is time now to deal with the most agonizing decision of your evil career. What to wear? (How to be a Villain by Neil Zawacki)
Low area is just part of the lane, but probably a 75' - 100' part.
Unfortunately, the lane is not in full sun. It runs on a north-south axis with moderately dense hardwoods on the western side (state land), and thinned hardwoods on the eastern side (mine). I've been clearing the dead & dying elms out and planting various shade lovers in the area but Bambi and his 5,000 evil twins seem to eat as fast as I plant. :(
=====Zippy=====
Here is the URL (web address) for the booklet Tom talked about:
http://www.na.fs.fed.us/spfo/pubs/stewardship/accessroads/accessroads.pdf
It's 56 pages and I was able to retrieve it OK. You probably need broadband access though...Matt
two feet of sand, six inches of sand/clay, six inches of limestone, compacted. have roadway at least foot higher than surround elevation.
Where you located? I can get a few friends to come down and take care of bambi and the cousins. I am in Bergen county. We dont mind traveling for bambi. I have 4 guys, all very respectful, let me know.
I am in Salem County, just about the middle. While my property is probably not worth your effort, the state land that I adjoin is a WMA- in other words, them's goverment deer that's eating my plants. Hunting on the WMA is open to anyone with the right permits, but I doubt you'll make much of a dent in the population!
Let me know if you want specific information about the area.
=====Zippy=====
I like your natural approach. Most of the problems presented on this site can only be solved with manufactured products and chemicals, so I'm conditioned not to think of natural solutions. Planting thirsty trees like poplar, cottonwood and willow might also be helpful to get rid of moisture while breaking up the clay. BTW, the original poster being in NJ, he might be able to get truckloads of oyster or clam shells to surface his road.
I like the natural approach as well, especially given how little use this lane will likely see. I will probably end up with a combination solution: plantings, some ditching, and geotextile covered with something, but probably not 18" of something.
Oyster shells are generally not available, as they get returned to the bay for seedlings to attach to. Clam shells are available and are used somewhat around here, BUT they are not as cheap as they were a few years back, and there was recently a mini-scandal where a few loads were found to contain some unexploded ordinance. Apprently they were dredged from an old practice bombing range....
=====Zippy=====
Having had to put in and maintain temporary access roads to many a wet and muddy construction site -- courtesy of England's glorious weather -- the main thing is to put a layer of fabric down first -- even old carpet will do it.
This stops the mud squeezing upwards into your road base material and the roadbase from sinking into the mud!
Drainage is important but if there's nowhere to drain the water to then try and cut the road at a slope and put a ditch on the low side -- this will help. 4'x 4'x 4' soakaway pits at intervals along the ditch will also add storage for run-off water.
IanDG
I wrote an FHB article on driveways about 6 years ago. I can't remember the issue, but you can search the index. Generally, the approach is to dig out the clay and replace it with big stone. The stone spreads out the loads in a cone projecting downward at 45 degrees from the point of contact. You need a sufficient depth (and width) of stone so that the heaviest projected load is spread out to a psf that's less than the bearing capacity of the underlying soil. Without an engineer to evaluate the soils, you're guessing at the required depth of stone.
The bad news is that wet clay has some of the worst bearing charactaristics on the planet. The good news is that you can sometimes use cheaper material than crusher run. Mixed bank run, where you've got cobbles, gravel and sand can be an effective and fairly cheap base. So can shale if it's available locally. If you dig out the clay, you should place a geotextile between the road base and the surrounding soils. The geotextile prevents the native soil from migrating into your expensive stone.
Alternatively, you can keep dumping and compacting fairly large (3 to 4 in.) stone in the area until it refuses any more. This would probably be a multi year project, with unpredictable results. When the road is stabilized, top it with a layer of DGA (dense graded aggregate, a crusher mix of gravel and fines). Inch and half DGA provides better bearing than 3/4 in. DGA, but it's a coarser finish. Andy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
The existing lane was cleared by the previous owner, who also built the shed in back that I need access to. I have no idea what his reasoning for placing the shed back there was, but I think making the road usable should be cheaper than building a new building.
Sphere can give you some good advice about moving the shed. He has experience!
Or, figure about 1 ½ tons/cu yd for crushed stone, around $9/ton at the quarry here, on top of geotextile fabric if you don't want to be adding stone almost forever. USDA has a great booklet "A Landowner's Guide to Building Forest Access Roads" which I unsuccessfully attempted to upload a scan from.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
I googled that title and came up with the USDA pub- very informative, although a lot of their techniques may be overkill for the limited use my lane will see. Their description of "log corduroy" was sort of already in the back of my mind as something I had seen. They also seem to echo the many recomendations for using geotextiles.
Funny how I tried all kinds of word combos on google before and came up with nada....
=====Zippy=====
Dig out 12 to 18 inches of the soil. Lay down fabric and fill with AASHTO #1 until 6 to 12 inches above the surrounding grade. Do 8 to 12 inch lifts and run over it with some heavy equipment. This is the stone that I typically spec for undergound seepage beds for stormwater. It will let the seasonal water rush underneath and still give you support. If there is a concentrated channel get some plastic pipe. (ADS) light and easy to install. Let the stone settle for a season and then top with some stone that is easier to drive on. Modified 2A or the like.
Find a nearby quarry that sells tailings - stone ranging anywhere from two to 12 inches in diameter. Buy enough filter fabric in a 12' wide roll to cover the area twice. Put down one layer of fabric over the low area and extend it out somewhat onto dry ground (I'd consider 20-30 feet each end). Cover that fabric with a 12-18" thick layer of the tailings, and place another layer of fabric over the tailings. Then cover the second layer of fabric with 4" to 6" of processed (crusher run) gravel. This should be cheaper than 1-1/2" crushed stone and will hold together better.
FWIW, I spec'd a similar solution for a 7500 sf house that was being moved to a new site, and right at the final footing grade, the excavator hit a layer of saturated fine sand that was essentially quicksand. You stood there, it looked dry, but you started sinking fast. We placed filter fabric, 18" of 2" crushed stone, more fabric, and a full rat slab right on top of the second layer of fabric. They were running concrete trucks over that and not moving it at all. Held up the house fine, it's been four years and no movement.
Jon E. (PE if it makes any difference)
zip.... Jon E. wrote the menu i would use.. especially in regards to the use of geotextoile filter fabric..
to repeat, here's what Jon said ..
<<<
Find a nearby quarry that sells tailings - stone ranging anywhere from two to 12 inches in diameter. Buy enough filter fabric in a 12' wide roll to cover the area twice. Put down one layer of fabric over the low area and extend it out somewhat onto dry ground (I'd consider 20-30 feet each end). Cover that fabric with a 12-18" thick layer of the tailings, and place another layer of fabric over the tailings. Then cover the second layer of fabric with 4" to 6" of processed (crusher run) gravel. This should be cheaper than 1-1/2" crushed stone and will hold together better.
FWIW, I spec'd a similar solution for a 7500 sf house that was being moved to a new site, and right at the final footing grade, the excavator hit a layer of saturated fine sand that was essentially quicksand. You stood there, it looked dry, but you started sinking fast. We placed filter fabric, 18" of 2" crushed stone, more fabric, and a full rat slab right on top of the second layer of fabric. They were running concrete trucks over that and not moving it at all. Held up the house fine, it's been four years and no movement.>>>
the only thing i would add to that is to bend the ear of your county road supt....
he should be up on the latest rural road const. methods and what to use for native materials...the geotextile fabrics have revolutionized road and earth constructionMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Nobody has mentioned getting broken concrete.
Here in Seattle area, it is dear now as Sea Tac airport is doing a 3 billion (3E9) yard fill for a 3rd runway, so its easy to get rid of broken concrete here for now. Until then, and likely after, it is easy to get broken concrete delivered. Since you have the machinery, everything else is easy.
Liked the 'old carpet' response as I've a few sq yards on the ground in the back yard myself.
Another good source, if you were trackedloader vs 4WD, would be roofers. A lot of my backyard drives are old roof tear offs under enough rock to keep from getting flats. Flattened out with tracked loader then covered.
If there are any composite shingle mfg nearby, the cutout from 3-tab are great to use also.
edit: oops, forgot to mention wood chips. Tree cutters in your area will be only to happy to supply you with however many hundred/thousand yards you need. Called a few tree cutters here a few years back and after 80 yards in 10 weeks had to put up locked chains across the road in addition to 'closed' signs to keep from gettin more.
Edited 1/9/2005 8:31 pm ET by JUNKHOUND
Zippy,
I build roads using soil cement. The local concrete plant gives the scraping-tailings away and all I pay for is the hauling. Lay 4" on top and disc in. Grade flat and compact. Top off with gravel.
My pond goes over part of my road at times and large trucks can get through without even a rut.KK
Nobody has mentioned getting broken concrete.
I can remember a neighbor having broken asphalt dumped on an easement behind our house. Township or county was ripping out a section of roadway and was happy to have a location to dump a few trucks worth.
The neighbor in theory was going to try and level it out a bit. He did spread it out, but it was a bumpy ride for a few years. I was back there a year or so ago, and it was just about right. But I suppose a load of gravel overtop of the riprap would have made it fairly smooth from the start. And that built up the easement probably 6" or so.
jt8
A friend of mine paved his 1500 ft. driveway with millings from a nearby road job. The material cost was only that of the trucking. He spread it out with a D-4, and compacted it with a good sized (10 ton?) vibratory roller. It's held up nearly as well as asphalt paving for 10 years now.
AndyAndy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
that is the kind of deal I like to find. I don't mind putting in some sweat equity if I can get something at a substantial discount. 1500 ft of asphalt or concrete would have cost a fortune... I'd rather pay the rental on the Cat and roller.
And then you run by a carpet store to load up on free, old carpet to use as underlayment :)
jt8
Edited 1/11/2005 4:59 pm ET by JohnT8
A few posters here have mentioned what amount to demolition material from roads or what have you.
Are there enviromental issues involved here?
Is that approved fill?
Just curious, I seem to remember reading from time to time about people using "non-approved" fill, or job site using fill that is tested and approved by DEC, EPA etc.
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
I don't know about using it for fill, but they use the stuff for roads! Seriously, I don't think milled road asphalt is different in any way that's an environmental issue from asphalt fresh from the plant. Maybe it's got fewer volatiles, but I can't imagine much else. That said, I'd feel hinky burying it. Concrete, I'd bury without a second thought. I've done that with every foundation I've ever backfilled.
AndyAndy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
Are there enviromental issues involved here?
Hmmm.. I don't know. As Andy already mentioned, asphalt is asphalt and concrete is fairly harmless buried (until you unexpectedly hit it with the backhoe). The country roads hereabouts tend to be gravel & oil, so I guess you'd have some oil residue , but I wouldn't think it would be enough to contaminate the ground water or anything.
jt8
Here is a link to article I remembered reading. This is for a stream crossing but you should be able to borrow from it.
http://www.progressivefarmer.com/farmer/land/article/0,19846,643769,00.html
Consider using a geotextile installed underneath crushed rock that is well graded (i.e., has a wide range of pariticle sizes). Depending on the condition of the underlying soild and the type of geotextile used, 6 to 8 inches of crushed rock might be adequate.