Finger-jointed Studs & Light Green
I took time to walk though a home being built in an edition. ALL the 2X4 wall studs were fingerjonted. How much difference in cost and long term quality between those and “real” wall studs?
I saw the bottom plate being a light colored green lumber rather than the treated green I see at the home stores. Is it a new kind of treated wood?
Also, the plumbers were there. They said that copper was basicly out and the Pecs plastic tubing is mostly “what everybody” is doing these days. I saw lots of the plastic tubing coming out of the slab and going to one main header. I asked if the floor was going to be heated and the plumber said that was just the connection point for all the other runs… It’s not this tubing I’m concern about, it’s the connection points. Will they stay sealed?
Thanks,
Bill
Replies
I'll try to satisfy a part of your curiosity and let others take up the slack.
I don't know what the light green lumber is. I keep hearing we will soon be seeing some new stuff. The ACQ that dominates PT now is terribler for all concerned.
finger jointed studs don't bother me iof they are more stable than half the natrual lumber we get now that twists and yanks all over the place.
HYPEX and PEX is the new golden standard for water and heat lines. It will tolerate freezing better and is far easier to run. The only joints are at the manifoild and at the delivery end, both of which can be tightened if there ever is a leak because they are left in accessable locations. Copper could pop a joint anywhere in the walls or floor.
another advantage of the system is that with all supply lines home run to the manifold, you are less likely to lose your hot water when somebody flushes the toilet
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The green tinted lumber may have been dip treated. It has a light green color to it.
I will remember before I forget.
Still...
Is dipped different in quality and treatment than Pressure Treated?
Thanks,
Bill...
Yes it's different.
Same sauce just different process. Like dipping a fry into ketchup, just gets on the outside of the fry some will soak up through the endgrain though.
It's the made in Taiwan of lumber.
I will remember before I forget.
That light green PT lumber is MCQ. It's what's going to replace ACQ.
We've been using borate for bottom plates here for a long time. That stuff will turn your clothes and hands purple.
Besides turning your hands and clothing purple is there any other down sides to the stuff?
Doug
I haven't seen or heard about MCQ. Probably have to wait until the stockpiles of ACQ are sold out around before we get it.
I haven't worked with Borate either, sounds like it tie dyes your clothes.
I replied because I have seen a Dip Treated ACQ on shelves, here and in Tennessee. No good for being exposed to the weather they say. I will remember before I forget.
I'll bet the light green is Borate treated. We been using for a couple of years for sill plates since ACQ came on the market. Won't corrode your fasteners. Not suitable for outside (deck) use.John
J.R. Lazaro Builders, Inc.
Indianapolis, In.
Finger-jointed studs are just another way in which Universal makes the most of every piece of wood. Finger-jointed studs are made by bonding shorter sections of lumber into longer lumber using structural, water-resistant adhesives. The use of shorter segments reduces warping and adds strength. Made for vertical use only, these studs can be used interchangeably with unjointed studs.
Universal offers an extensive mix of finger-jointed studs made from SPF or SYP, in lengths ranging from seven feet to twelve feet. The studs are available in any precision-end-trimmed length you need.
Tested and Approved
The quality of Universal’s finger-jointed studs is assured, because the studs must comply with visual grade rules and undergo regular testing within the plant. They are sampled during production several times per shift and tested for bond strength and adhesive durability.
The grades for these studs are based on the same rules as those for unjointed lumber. Design values are also the same. But the wood in the joints actually meets stricter requirements—our structural finger joints must exhibit strength values that are more than twice the design value for the grade.
SBCCI, BOCA, ICBO, and CABO all accept the use of structurally finger-jointed lumber for building design in the U.S.
©1999-2007 Universal Forest Products, Inc. All
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So, andy - Have you used the things? where do they break? Do they twist?
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I've used the finger jointed studs. Like Andy's link says- for vertical use only. No sills, plates.
They break at the glue lines, it doesn't take a whole lot of weight. I field tested one. I will remember before I forget.
I bought a few of them when Contractors warehouse closed down. About everything was sold off, and they were at 90% off, so they were about $.22 each. Problem was they had been outside and were frozen together. I broke a few trying to pick them off the pile. If you drop them they break. All in all though, they are straight and stay that way, and worked well for a basement bathroom frame up. I live in tornado alley, and we get some high winds too sometimes. I'd be very hesitant about, well, absolutely against using them on outside walls. I'd easily use them for interior walls though.
That sounds pretty close to my experience with them. A GC I frame for got a big load of them for next to nothing. We used them for interior non loadbearing walls. THe walls were flatter than comparable walls with regular 2x4's.
I laid one down on the floor, a few 2x's under one side then stepped on one. Broke very easily. On edge I couldn't get one to snap. Like Boss said. I will remember before I forget.
I never had one break that way either. Still unsure about them. Mine are all gone, but there are some cutoffs left for the chiminea. Maybe I can test one of those for fun and amusement.
We take the cutoffs from the truss plant and make finger jointed lumber with them. I've played with some of it to see how strong the stuff is. If you lay it down flat and step on it, the finger joints break fairly easily. Kinda like breaking a board with a big knot in it. But put the board on edge and I've never been able to break one.The boards do seem straighter in general, as you would expect them to. I think that's partly because every piece is hand selected. You can't just dump a whole bunch of short pieces into a hopper and let the machine sort 'em out. The guys have to pick every piece, so really bad ones get culled.The downside (to me anyway) is that they look like heck. As I'm sure you know, not every 2X4 is exactly the same width or thickness. So you get pieces that are 3 9/16" joined to pieces that are 3 7/16". You also get some SYP joined to SPF, and quarter sawn pieces next to flat sawn pieces. So overall they don't look pretty.We've had our joints tested for tension. They test well enough in tension that we COULD use them for truss webs if we wanted to. But we don't, as we figure the customers wouldn't accept them.
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I was framing with them in 02. Whenever it rained, the ones that got exposed before installation would sometimes break at the joints just from being picked up.
Piffin,
We've used the quite a bit and they work just fine. The last time we used them though we did crown them because they weren't as nice as usual. We always crown studs, but stopped when we use finger jointed.
Hardi looks nicer on the walls that get finger jointed studs. We only use them when we get to 9' or 10' walls.
I just got John Spiers book on engineered lumber and the next time we have a tall wall like this one http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/10043887/145769872.jpg we'll either use the TrusJoist LSL studs, or the Boise Cascade versa-stud.
I just read today that the state of Michigan is investigating FJ studs in fire situations. We'll see how this turns out.
I will remember before I forget.
i've always crowned studs too and I'm suprised how many guys never even have considered it!
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Do you crown in or out? I've never really thought about that, but I don't frame much at all.zak
"When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John Ruskin
"so it goes"
Cabinet installing goes better if the crowns are out...base cabinets are tight to the wall at the bottom and easy to shim at the top and wall cabs are tight at the top and easy to shim at the bottom.Don't know if there are any other issues to consider.
I was kind of guessing that crown out would be the best way, but I'm still mulling it over.zak
"When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John Ruskin
"so it goes"
It sure can be a pain to get shims in behind base cabinets at the floor and even worse to shim the top of wall cabinets...when the crown is turned in.
There are several benefits.
Most important with cabs or other rooms where tight tolerances are more important, from a finishing POV.Also though, it is easier for the framer to do when platform framing. On flat deck, a rown as little ias 1/8" can make the stud rock up at end 1/4" so it has to be forced down or the plate lifted up to flyush them when stitching togeether with the gun. By crowning up - which is generally also out, then the crown does not bother the frame nailer.for hanging sheet rock it is best to have them all cropwn one way rather than alternating which can cause more nail or screw pops in the finishfinally, if you don't crown a frame just doesn't look as good with random variations wandering around, a wall freshly framed can look like it has errors in layout to the naked eye.
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I also do it that way and for the same reasons. To crown in, the wall would rockin' on the deck during nail-up, so it works out all around.
Tell everyone to do it that way.
The finger jointed studs have been around here for a while and work well for re-modeling, (staight) but I don't think they are passed for structural. (so someone told me)
crown out
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When I hung the wallboard in my family room, I discovered that the crowns were mixed in the wall between it and the furnace room. It was so bad, I wound up screwing 1x2 steel studs to the sides of the wood studs and attaching the rock to the steel.That's a load bearing wall, and lately I've been wondering if the crown is actually the studs bending under the load.George Patterson, Patterson Handyman Service
Yeah, that was the way I was taught and after using Hardi for the last 10 years, I'm glad I was taught that way.
In John's book he mentions that on cabinet walls they always crowned studs. What?! Only then? But he's an east coast guy :-) hahaha
Fingerjointed are a good compromise. Although don't leave them out in the rain for a few weeks, they can fall apart. That last batch I mentioned we had did that, wait, I think we used them on my brother's house. Some of them fell apart that had been stacked out in the yard.
Thanks, Andy,
That a lot of information to consider. I have to agree about the use of this type of product on inside walls. Too bad that the homes I've seen this used in, used it in all the outside walls... Most likely not a problem until some twisting wind hits and the outside masonary crumbles leaving the frame to snap like matchsticks...and people underneath the pile.
Bill
My house was built around 1986 and all the studs are finger jointed. There are two sizes. A finer one with fingers about 5/8" long and a coarse one that are an inch long, signifying at least 2 mills were making them at the time (or maybe 1 mill with 2 different machines). There are up to 4 joints in a stud and the glue is a dark brown/black that was probably set by radio frequency as there are some studs with clamp marks on each side of the joint. They never twisted or bowed that I can remember (lived here since 1990) and I've never given them any thought. I wish the floor joists had stayed as straight.
Bill,
I don't know diddly-squat about finger-jointed studs, except they allow you to use smaller scraps of lumber to make studs, which makes them "green" according to the fans...
The light green treated lumber is the new PT lumber on the market. Get ready for the entire PT-realted industry to flip on it's head, folks. No need for hot-dipped anything pretty soon...
I will cut and paste an email I sent to a colleaguge about the new products, rather than retyping it here:
---------------
Osmose (http://www.osmose.com/acrobat/micropro_brochure.pdf) has found a new way to grind copper into micro-sized particles, and infuse it into the wood using a different solvent (less toxic) - think of a giant coffee grinder. Arch (http://www.wolmanizedwood.com/hd/products.shtml) (makers of Wolmanized wood) have found a way to completely eliminate copper - replacing it with 3 un-pronounceable chemicals. A third company has figured a way of heat-treating wood so that the structure changes, making it useless to insects, rot, etc - and much more stable to boot. Bottom line: These products will be on the shelf this year (already out in many areas of the country - even through Home Depot), rendering all of the hot-dip, galvanic worries nonsense. You can use plain old crappy aluminum connectors again. That’s big news. Also, crappy woods like SYP can be stained more easily, expanding the options for PT decks.
Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
Your Friendly Neighborhood Remodelerator
The "Osmose" brand name is familiar. Maybe I'm confused, but - Wasn't Osmose treatment used to make fire retardant plywood ? And didn't it have problems with thermal degredation?
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Hi Boss,
I'm not an expert on this... but I believe there are three major lumber treatment companies. I believe Osmose is the company, so you probably have heard of them. MicroPro is the name of the new wood treatment. Also, Wolmanized wood is well-known, but they launched a new kind of wood called L3 (L-cubed). Apparently this L3 doesn't even turn the wood green like the old PT chemicals, but they dye the wood so that store employees won't get the stock confused with ordinary lumber, and so that buyers will realize its PT, and won't be skeptical.
The consumer is a strange creature, no? Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
Your Friendly Neighborhood Remodelerator
osmose dopes make some good products, but Justin was still in diapers back when the fire retardent plywood thing happened in the late seventies.Heck, his momma might have still been in diapers back then. we're aging too fast Boss.
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I thought I was remembering correctly. We had some cases where roof trusses were made of Osmose FRT (Fire Retardant Treated) lumber. When the lumber got hot it started to disentegrate. Lotsa lawsuits over that, as I recall. Fortunately, I haven't done a FRT job for a long time. They sure are a pain.
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