I just received the new cabinets for my shop and poker room.
The ones in the poker room are made of select cherry. I plan to stain them to match the other cabs throughout the house. These “other cabs” appear to have a lacquer topcoat (since lacquer thinner seems to remove the finish). A number of these “other cabs” also appear to have failing finishes that looks like the topcoat is coming off.
The ones going into the shop are made of the next lower grade of cherry – having an allowance of pitchpockets and small knots. The hemlock woodwork in the shop has a different color stain than the rest of the house, and is topped by a water based poly.
And I also just got a new Apollo model 1000 HVLP system. Never used one before. Got all the fancy attachments to go with it.
I assume I’ll top the poker room ones with clear lacquer while at the same time repairing the other failing areas. Never sprayed lacquer before.
My questions are:
1. Is there a type or brand of lacquer that is less less odorous than the usual variety? I would like to spray these things indoors. And then, is this type or brand of lacquer compatible with being vented via the not-completely-hooked-up yet dust collector? Meaning the collection side is open near the machine while installed to vent outside. It’s a 900 cfm model.
2. What would be a more durable finish to use on these shop cabs? I don’t expect to beat them like one would normally expect in a true shop. This shop is more of a lab/hobby shop. Although it could be exposed to some form of hostile chemical from solvents, pesticides, fertilizers, cleaners, etc. And would that finish be further compatible with this HVLP system and someone having never used the stuff before? Is a water based poly a choice?
Thanks.
Replies
Sounds like a great opportunity for me to plug a product I've fallen in love with.
Kem Aqua - from Sherwin. Your concerns: odor - almost none. I've had a hard time putting my finger on it, but finally decided if it smelled like anything, it smelled like a really weak ammonia. But it is weak. You can fumigate an entire floor and stand in the LR ten minutes later and there's no smell left.
Venting - not completely necessary, but I've got a ten dollar box fan I grabbed at Target that moves a little air around. Helps things dry nice and quick too.
Mask - I wear one, mostly out of habit, partially because lots of particles of anything can't be all that good on you. I'm also the sensitive type. Literally. Everything gives me a rash, so I can imagine what even a water borne lacquer would do to me if I breathed a lot of it.
Durable - it's sold as an industrial finish. It's acrylic, it's hard, if you let it sit for 24 hours before pounding on it, it's about as abuse resistant as anything else I've tried. Certainly more so than conversion lacquers I've used.
water borne poly - also an option. I finally figured out how to get a beautiful job out of polycrylic in a spray gun. Its the scenario that would screw up most other finishes - spray it somewhere cool and humid. Cures out like glass. Got a "garage" spray booth, a job that needs done yesterday, and it's raining? There you are.
Anyway - that's the nutshell. Your HVLP ought to be a great match for spraying either. There's a handful of tips I've gleaned from playing around with Kem Aqua that would save you headaches if you decide to pursue it - if you want to know more drop me an email.
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain
Kem Aqua - from Sherwin.
Good to hear product raves. How do you remove it? PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Wet - alcohol and a rag
Dry - Angle grinder"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain
I've been reading about Kem Aqua on the Sherwin website. It sounds as if it's what I'm looking for. I like their application criteria for various types of applications including HVLP.
Two follow on questions:
I'll be putting this on cherry. I see several old articles in Fine Woodworking about various techniques to avoid splotching so characteristic when staining cherry. The method that seems most appropriate in this situation uses a danish or linseed oil covered by two coats of shellac. Assuming complete drying of the shellac, can this Kem Aqua be used over it?
Getting back to the original question about the "other cabs" in the kitchen that have spots of failing finish. Can this Kem Aqua be used to top the existing lacquered drawers and doors?
The great thing about a dewaxed shellac is how well it bonds - to just about everything. That asset makes it a fav for a lot of refinishing shops. Incompatible finishes? Shellac between. Contamination? Seal it with shellac. It's also what gets it used in some stain killing paints. So to answer your question, yes, it will go on shellac.
Now I'd add, having done this "double finish" tomfoolery on cherry before, that the linseed oil, even when dry, in my experience still didn't like the shellac so well. I got better results when I omitted it and went straight to the lacquer, albeit after a good months dry time. I do suspect the the drying time could have played a role - not because I didn't think I allowed enough time, it should have been sufficient, but the way the shellac reacted would have made one think the oil hadn't dried - if you didn't know the time that preceeded it. Anyway, weird things happen.
An yes again, I've shot KA directly over solvent lacquer. Since I use it in remodels - example. You put together a basement that got water damage. This wall good, this wall bad. Bad wall replaced, new trim, KA sealer and KA topcoat, but topcoat everything so the sheen is the same (more better of the original hasn't been flattened). Sticks great, sucks down tight after a day. Which is another thing. An hour after you put it on, it's dry. Dry to the touch, you think it's done. It looks a little plastic - like poly. Wait a day. Come back the next morning it's just pulled itself down nice and tight and looks like a million bucks. "If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain
Dry - Angle grinder
Ummhmmm. So you mean it's really tough stuff. All finishes have a life span. This one sounds like it will obsolete the cabinets. No?
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Well I honestly can't answer that one. I'm sure it has a lifespan too. In use it has been very durable. Test pieces I was unable to scratch with my car keys. I hounded my SW rep for a waterborne lacquer long enough I finally got it. I was the first dude in town to start using the stuff about a year ago, and thus far everything I've used it on has done great. There's a second place using it now - and they make commercial cabinetry. They obviously use more than I do. I get it in 5's, they special order 50 gal drums. But to me that's a notch in the win column. A big shop putting it on all the cabinetry they ship out. IMERC asked me once about using it as a floor finish. I asked and was told no it wasn't designed for that. I didnt get technical specifics as to why, so I just have to trust that theres some reason, but I'd like to try it somewhere small someday just to see."If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain
Well I honestly can't answer that one.
Thank you. You haven't had the opportunity to respray after several years. But if KA will stick to just about anything, you're assuming that you could at least re-coat successfully?
When I was last commercially building cabinets we used a nitrocellulose lacquer formulated for the automotive industry. Extremely easy to work with, fast build, and came off easily. But that was the best part. Kitchen durability left something to be desired. During that period I watched another (larger volume) shop try out several waterborne finishes. We didn't switch. Had the opportunity of revisiting one of my kitchens last year. It was at least 2 yrs overdue for a refinish, after 14 yrs. Owners were still thrilled. Most of it looked fine. High wear areas didn't.
My history with Sherwin-Williams products goes back to the '70s. Sometimes great, sometimes not-so-great. Has KA been around for awhile?
Regarding floors, I can only imagine 2 potential problems, abrasion and/or separation. Both of which would also be a cabinet problem. You've informally tested abrasion resistance. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
You're pretty on the ball there chief. I am assuming some facts not yet in evidence, primarily due to timeline. I do not believe KA has been in the market for a long time. I was only able to get the stuff about a year ago, which is no indication of when it became developed or first available. Just when I got it. As to the floor - the cogs are still churning a little, but I almost wonder if it isn't separation. My theory, thus far, if it is that hard and durable, then hard = brittle sometimes and that can be a downside, but the hole in the theory there is I've sprayed doors, cabinetry, bookshelves, mantles . . . and thus far (read: insufficient long term test period) that has not been an issue.
Now I've got some stuff I did conversion varnish on maybe five years ago, and it's just garbage. At the time I had hopes that would be the next best thing, but that product showed signs of making me less than happy within the first year. Undoubtedly a brand issue rather than a product issue unto itself."If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain
I use enduro coat from http://www.compliantspraysystems.com Its made for spraying by an HVLP ( though I use a LVLP). I just discovered the amber tinited finish they sell. It definately gives the appreance of a o/b finish but with out the order of a o/b finish cuz its w/b. I never noticed any order from this stuff.
Darkworksite4:
Gancho agarrador izquierdo americano pasado que la bandera antes de usted sale
You're pretty on the ball there chief. I am assuming some facts not yet in evidence, primarily due to timeline. I do not believe KA has been in the market for a long time.
How does that go? "Once burned, twice wary."
Eat a couple of problems that weren't really your fault and you get suspicious. That's one reason I tune in here. Product testing isn't anything I want to do on a finished item. Wish I had the definitive solution, but that's why I ask questions. So far, my next kitchen (for us) will get lacquer.
Don't know if it's germane, but the bubble brains I ran the shop for used that same automotive lacquer for years before I wandered in. First kitchen I sprayed got a complaint call within a week. Water spotting. So I wiped it down and told them to call if it happened again. Two days later I was back out. Bosses assured me that it'd never happened before and they must have changed the formulation.
Tracked down the company chemist in Ohio who said they hadn't changed anything for over 10 yrs and what was I spraying? He was horrified to hear it was wood. Wasn't formulated for that at all. Solvents went into the wood and couldn't escape, preventing the film from fully curing. Upon checking, the previous 20+ kitchens all had the same problem. Nobody ever bothered to figure out why. This, in upscale housing, unbelievable.
Sanding sealer (SW) solved the problem for future use. A gawd-awful breathe-it-and-die catalyzed finish fixed the problem kitchen. Heaven help the refinisher. All the previous kitchens continued to be ignored.
I've spent quite a bit of time with a luthier friend trying to figure out finishes. Stringed instruments get considerable wear on the finish. Jury's still out.
For floors, have you significantly dented KA'd wood? If it cures highly inflexible, that'd be a problem. I wouldn't assume so, but I haven't used it. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
"I've spent quite a bit of time with a luthier friend trying to figure out finishes. Stringed instruments get considerable wear on the finish. Jury's still out."
You might want to check out this article.
http://www.targetcoatings.com/home/technician_rolfe.html
And also the coatings available from Target Coatings if you're not familiar. Here's a water-borne lacquer with substantial resistance to abrasion and chemical resistance, too.
http://www.targetcoatings.com/products/coatings/oxford_spray_lacq.html
Note that although it's water-borne and cross-linked, it'll burn-in on additional/subsequent coatings. And so..... has the repair-ability and appearance of solvent-nitro while offering better performance.
You might want to check out the entire Emtech and Oxford series coatings on that site. As for me.......I'm still deciding which finishes shall become my "standards". My jury is still out on the matter, too. The downside to cat-lacquer finishes like MagnaMax is the no-repair-abilty or recoat once they've cured. I think that's the same thing I heard you reference with "making the cabinets obsolete", if I'm not mistaken. That sort of thing bugs the snot outta me. If I use some of those finishes which serve me well as far as production and delivery time goes, I've just condemned the client to great expenses (total strip) when (not if) finishes need renewing or repair. In households with a number of kids, physical damage is to be expected/anticipated. In some instances, it would then be cheaper to toss the cabinets, doors or trim and replace with new if cat-finishes are involved.
I've had clients ask me recently to put some more finish on an oak desk they purchased via a manufacturer because the finish was so thin. They weren't all that happy when I reported that it would require a total strip, recolor and then finish…because cat-finishes had been used. Same thing holds true for the vast majority of manufactured kitchen cabs these days. Buyer beware. Don't go thinkin'/assuming you're gonna haul 'em home and just toss on another couple coats of finish. I've been asked on several occasions to add some more finish to kitchen cabs too (before any wear-thru had occurred as to avoid such) and had to deliver the bad news.
Am I my brother's keeper? Well, yeah. To a large degree, I guess I think I am. At the very least I think I owe it to the client to explain the choices and let them decide if they want the very toughest or most expedient finish (read cheapest/fastest production times and costs) or if they'd like to have a finish that offers decent performance along with greater ease of repair. And so, that's what I do as a rule. I do a brief education and then let them decide. I sleep better that way. I'd be POed if my new car came with the hood welded shut and the wheels welded on, too. <G> Hopefully, I'll find a couple of finishes that will eliminate the need to ask at all. I'll be using some of those Target Coatings in the near future.
FWIW, I'm also in the habit of leaving finishing notes on my pieces in an inconspicuous area for the next guy. Stuff like which coloring and finishing products were used. Only takes a minute and can eliminate a whole lot of expense and frustration in the future.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Note that although it's water-borne and cross-linked, it'll burn-in on additional/subsequent coatings. And so..... has the repair-ability and appearance of solvent-nitro while offering better performance.
You're right. That was interesting. Thanks. Forwarded it to my friend. Don't know if he knows of the product. Been awhile since we've spoken. His specialty is a fledgling mandolin line. Repairs have been the bulk of his business. For me, I'd love to find something more environmentally friendly. Environmental, as in nicer to spray here on the mountain and have less concern what I was dumping outside in my woodlot.
The downside to cat-lacquer finishes like MagnaMax is the no-repair-abilty or recoat once they've cured. I think that's the same thing I heard you reference with "making the cabinets obsolete", if I'm not mistaken.
Exactly. Not something I consider acceptable. I no longer manufacture cabinets, am not even currently accepting furniture commissions, but I'm vain enough to think that my products would/should outlive the finish. Don't presently have a spray booth so everything's been an oil finish lately. Looks/works great, just tedious.
At the very least I think I owe it to the client to explain the choices and let them decide if they want the very toughest or most expedient finish (read cheapest/fastest production times and costs) or if they'd like to have a finish that offers decent performance along with greater ease of repair.
Don't know your clients, obviously, but the problem I see is asking the least knowledgeable person to make the decision with only a brief education. I do a lot of decision-making based on what the client's house holds. Including, sometimes, a decision that it won't hold anything of mine.
Interesting about leaving a note. You're right about saving the next guy some grief, so long as it hasn't been too long inbetween. Otherwise, the colors have usually shifted somewhat anyway. I've been successful in avoiding tints, other than in repairs, so less of an issue for me.
The major problem I have with newer finishes is removal requiring anything more than a solvent. Destroying the patina that took years to develop is not something to be taken lightly. Particularly with cherry, as our original poster was wanting to finish.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
" the problem I see is asking the least knowledgeable person to make the decision with only a brief education."
I hear you loud and clear. :-)
I figure it this way.........Since neither of us can see into the future concerning what may or may not happen, I let them decide aobut which avenue they'd sooner travel.......the one where a u-turn is possible or the one where it isn't. That way I know they can't hold me responsible for making the "wrong" decision with their money. Just covering my butt, so to speak.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
That way I know they can't hold me responsible for making the "wrong" decision with their money. Just covering my butt, so to speak.
Fair enough. By the way, my friend John was highly amused with the Target testamonial. Seems he's known Rolf since Rolf lived in Richmond, Va. They both were on a symposium finish board last summer. And he doubts he'll
"ever have to resort to learning to use water bourn finishes, but if I do this could come in handy."
Thank you again.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
I would like to spray these things indoors. And then, is this type or brand of lacquer compatible with being vented via the not-completely-hooked-up yet dust collector?
Unlikely it's an explosion-proof fan. If you want to go that way, don't use anything with a flamable solvent.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Yeah, this collector's engine is not explosion-proof.
But I'm looking for such a motor/blower to use in the hood over the photography sink. My google searches haven't been very successful. Any suggestions?
But I'm looking for such a motor/blower to use in the hood over the photography sink. My google searches haven't been very successful. Any suggestions?
You using something that will require an explosion proof fan? I'd have thought that any tiny exhaust fan would suffice. Surplus Center has several.
http://surpluscenter.com/community.asp?UID=2003031823141350&catname=electricPAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
"Yeah, this collector's engine is not explosion-proof."
Stone,
I don't know what makes an electric motor "explosion proof" per say. But most dust collectors (as well as most stationary shop equipment in general) have "TEFC" motors. That stands for "Totally Enclosed Fan Cooled," They are completely sealed. I can't see how one could set off an explosion.
Jon
Here's my opinion...
In your situation, the only products you should be looking at are waterbased, like a couple of the guys have suggested. There are several good brands, and they are all getting better....personally, I stick with the Swedish formulas from companies like Becker-Acroma and Sadolin. I was in a major kitchen plant a month ago, surprised to find they are all waterbased now.
There is no way I would ever use a dust collector to vent a spray finish operation; with water based, you can use a regular fan set upwind, but I always turn off anything electrical that may kick on while your spraying, especially furnaces. With most of the waterbornes I know, you can put out a fire with them when they are liquid, but they may still explode when atomised into tiny droplets, and I figure better safe than sorry.
Re: your old finishes...if they strip with lacquer finish, then they are nitrocellulose.....that probably puts them at an age where the parts that haven't started to fail, are going to soon. Personally, I wouldn't consider spraying over them with any product except nitro.....but then, I would never use nitro on anything at all now, and especially not if I didn't have a proper spray booth.
sidenote: I don't have the same issues with catalysed products some of the other people have mentioned; no, they won't stand up for a hundred years, but they will last the expected life of most products, and I have never had a problem repairing (respraying) a damaged, but already cured finish, as long as I sanded and cleaned them properly. Paint is a bit more challenging than clears, but I've never had an issue. Lucky maybe.
cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, N.S