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Ken,
I live in a part of Alaska where we are using the ’94 UBC (it’s Uniform Building Code). As mentioned my others, blocking is only req’d every 10 vertical feet unless there are soffits, floors or other elements attached. There are, however, alternatives to 2X blocks, though they may not fly with your local inspectors. I called ICBO last year on this for an interpretation. I was told that even batt insulation is adequate for fire blocking as long as it is held in place so it can’t settle. There’s also drywall, plywood and other materials that are acceptable.
Tom Laing
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Fireblocking a 10' wall left the BOCA and CABO codes a long time ago. It really doesn't make sense to expend time and material on closed cavity construction but better to put the effort toward firestopping vertical to horizontal connections that would allow the free passage of fire from one level to another. Conventional platform framing will contain fire extremely well as fire has a difficult time progressing into a closed space when it can't effectuate a draft. Fire spreads more rapidly through doors, windows and stairways than the framework. In looking over the Final Draft of the IBC, I see it's in there with an 8' requirement both horizontal and vertical. It's not in the Int. 1&2 Family Dwelling Code.
As far as cutting, notching, toenailing and 2x2 ledgers, when done right it works. It's still permitted in the code and sometimes may be a solution to a problem. It seems to me the fine art of jointing and hand nailing is being lost to production not to mention tennis elbow.
Fireblocking, joist hangers and nailing are among the top items that fail in a framing inspection. For the most part it's just oversight, but thats why we have inspections.
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Keith,
Inspectors around my parts are thought of as pretty hard on all, but every home I go in has dozens of obvious code violations...One walk through the cellar...starting with the plumbers drain system...I run out of fingers and toes to count the deviations from code...
So much for inspection....Consumers must demand the level of work quality they desire and set up contractors to compete to deliver it....
Free markets,
J
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AJ,
There's a lot truth in what your saying, but you have to look at it this way, it's extremely difficult to set a standard for the consumer as far as quality goes. That standard is set by the trades, but level is set by the consumer. If their first priority is price, then we know where quality goes.
And these inspectors that are "hard on all", get no respect from me and generally are nothing more than "hardons" themselves. They either have lost or never had the insight of their mission. Many times these guys lack practical experience in the trades and training in the profession. I have several expressions I use during my training classes for prospective inspectors and contractors. "Stupidity is a major factor of arrogance and your career will be short lived if you place your arrogance on a magic carpet for your power trip" and another is that "your greatest critics will be your local contractors". I guess this is really a topic for another day , but I wear a bullet-proof vest on this subject.
Gotta go, swinging the old hammer today, it's how I keep in "touch" with the trades and maintain my edge. Keith
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Keith, I somewhat disagree. I think all the inspectors should be hard on all! I welcome that climate. Why? Because I'm way tougher on myself than any inspector. And when the inspector find stuff, it's usually right. I just hope he finds it on all the competition too!
The one thing I won't tolerate though is if he pulls a personal prefereence out of his a--! I will fight that type of inspector all the way to the supreme court. Usually it only takes one trip to the city hall, and a chat with his boss, though.
Don't ever cave in to something that is not in the book! I know, everyone warns "oh just do it anyways, 'cause the inspector will nit pick your jobs, otherwise". I say "so be it, that's his job!" Since I already nitpick my own jobs, I don't have much to worry about!
Blue
*Blue,signing my name to your post again.J
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Blue, I don't think you really disagree with me that much but have misinterperated the intention of my statement which was in light of AJ's post. I was refering to the "few" that give inspectors a bad name. But I do have a real problem with the phrase "hard on all", if an inspector is competant, knows the trade and it's respective code, maintains a professional attitude then he's not being hard on anyone. It's all a matter of doing the job and how you do it.
It sounds as though I've conducted my business in the same manor as you have and I respect a contractor who wants to treated fairly. It's because of my dealings with those "few" I got involved with learning the codes. And now as the head of a municipal construction department those same ideals have brought respect and professionalism to myself and my staff. I only hire inspectors that have practical or professional experience. I like to think we share the same views and realize communication is a key element in working together as a team. They also know they better be able to back themselves up with the code sections pertaining to any violations and personal preferences don't carry any weight in my office.
While we can't please everyone, I find that most contractors that have a problem with code compliance are among the "few" on that side of the "fence" and in the end are really just "hard on" themselves. I enjoy working with contractors that understand code compliance is part of the trade and doing business. I am not insulted or offended when questioned on an issue, it keeps me on my toes. Keith
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Keith,
Would you log in to the thread, "Bridging, is it necessary" and give us your opinion on the subject?
I'd be especially interested in knowing if and when it is necessary to bridge joists that are 2x6, 2x8, 2x10, and 2x12, and what is the span that requires bridging for each if it is necessary.
What do your inspectors look for? What are acceptable alternatives to bridging?
Also, how about strongbacking? When is it required? Should the upright member of the strongback always have the same width as the joist? How about the member that lays flat?
P.S. Watch for MILKBONE MATH FRAMING CHALLENGE, coming soon to a new thread.
*Ken,Your brains are need in "Roofing Questions"Volleyball outdoors in a month or so...Skiing has been great of late.Jack
*Im in for one milkbone!Blue
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The framing inspectors down here in San Antonio are now using the 1994 UBC (Unified Building Code?). It used to be that you didn't have to fire block the walls if the studs were less than 10'
Someone mentioned to me that the new Code requires fire blocking for 8' walls and if the walls are 8' to 12' that you need two rows of fire blocking.
Anybody out there know the new codes?
What are the Codes in your area of the world this year for fire blocking?
Do you need to fire block differently for a two story than a single story?
Second question. When ceiling joists hang from a beam, joist hangers are probably the strongest connection. How about pressure blocking as an alternative? Codes in your area for this?? Third method. 2 x 2 ledger nailed flush to bottom of beam then notch joists for it. Permissible in your area? Codes?? If yes, permissible for 2 x 6 joists?
P.S....The Milkbone Math Framing Challenge will be here soon. Just got computer back from Whitney Houston. ( She was late in getting it back from Sam Houston)
*'94 UBC section 708.2.1 does not require fire blocking for stud spaces except for spaces 10' or more (floor levels, dropped ceilings etc.)2x2 ledger isn't worth much as it will tend to rotate and pull away from beam. Getting the proper edge distance for nails could be difficult, although I didn't look up the specifics. Usually you want to keep an inch or so away from edges. Also, the quality of a 2x2's isn't usually very good, and even a single knot or area of steeply angled grain can make them practically worthless structurally.Whether pressure blocking will work would depend on the loads applied and how the joist is attached to the block. I assume you'd end nail into the block after passing thru the joist. Toenails are not all that strong. You or your designer would probably have to do a calculation to justify the use of pressure blocking. I'd avoid considering it for all but the shortest spans. I assume they are not being used for floor loads.For simplicity and strength, I'd stick to joist hangers. You're not as dependant on wood not splitting or an occasional bad nail job. Fancy cut joints are becoming a thing of the past in framing carpentry with good reason.
*Ken, the milkbone challenge has me fretting, I'm down to my last few bones cause jOe ripped me oof!You have some interesting ideas. Ken has properly squashed the 2x2 idea. I hve no idea what a pressue block connection is, although it might just be a verbage thing. Either way, it won't pass without a joist hanger here, and every hole better be filled! I disagree with gary's assertion that a toenail is weaker. Than what? I love toenails. A properly installed toenail will draw and hold the connection tight, and provide the same shear strength.Correct me with data if I'm wrong please (I'm spewing field observations).The firestopping code that you cited seems very intense. Are you talking residential firestopping?Blue
*I'd thought a toenail was about half as strong as a fase nail. But maybe this is a function of 16d v. 8d nails?
*50% was what I thought it is.Instead of an allowable 95 pounds, you'd get less than about 50 pounds per nail, depending on size etc.Uniform Building Code.
*Blue, pressure blocking is as follows: install rim joist,install block tightly to beam perpendicular to joist, run two vertical rows of at least 12d commons ( 3 each row for 2x6,4 for 2x8, etc...) into the beam, the rows should be about 10 inches apart, then place the next joist up against the previously installed block and nail thru the joist into the edge of the block, install the next block against the beam tight to the last installed joist and fasten as described above, install next joist as previously, etc...........It works well if installed properly. Gary, for what good reason is there no more fancy joint work being? Geoff P.S. the other reason the 2x2 is a bad idea is the notch, it reduces the working depth of the joist, and can cause splitting.
*Fancy joint work doesn't fly anymore because th sizes of lumber has been downsized to the point that their is nothing left to mortise and tenon, etc.Newfangled hardware like joist hangers has made the need for fanciness outdated.Blue
*Why would you choose pressure blocking over hangers? Looks? Dislike of handnailing 100's of little bitty nails?
*Fire blocks are required here for all exterior walls, with stud cavities of more than 8". One row will suffice. For platform framing, you will need blocks for both stories. The attic does not have to be blocked, if it is not a living space.Don't forget the drywall blocking!!! Remember to block for towel bars, sinks, and showers as well!All joists must be attached by joist hangers which are stronger than any lumber joint. And Blue is right, all holes must have nails in them. We also require blocking between the joists, horizontally, every 8'.I used to build homes in the upper midwest, where blocking was not a requirement. The rationale was that since the fire department was volunteer, by the time they got them out of the taverns and on to a truck, and at the site, the home would be gone.
*Platform framing of walls has fireblocking built in (the plates!!!) So I guess I fireblock.J
*Ken,I live in a part of Alaska where we are using the '94 UBC (it's Uniform Building Code). As mentioned my others, blocking is only req'd every 10 vertical feet unless there are soffits, floors or other elements attached. There are, however, alternatives to 2X blocks, though they may not fly with your local inspectors. I called ICBO last year on this for an interpretation. I was told that even batt insulation is adequate for fire blocking as long as it is held in place so it can't settle. There's also drywall, plywood and other materials that are acceptable.Tom Laing
*The deck acts as a break also.AJ, how do you know so much about framing, if you do tennis courts. I admit I know a lot about tennis courst too. They do have lines, and a net on them, don't they?Blue