Upcoming project will have fireplaces on the first and second floor of an addition. I was initially designing with the masonry mass inside the bldg envelope for cost/durability issues in cold climate (upstate NY). But the spaces are not huge and the mass is intruding on the rooms too much for my liking.
I’m now thinking about moving the mass to the outside of the envelope. I’ve also seen drawings where it straddles the wall…1/2 inside, 1/2 outside. How do you detail such a thing? Particularly regarding the foundation and the cellar?
Steve
Replies
Straddling the wall is very bad from an energy efficiency point of view. Slightly better is putting the masonry outside, but then you have to deal with a poor draft due to the column of cold air that will hang inside the chimney.
Is using insulated metal pipe an option that would allow you to keep the chimney inside? It's not as good as masonry, but not bad considering your alternatives.
This is a very historically-minded client and she wants masonry. It's going to be rumford fireboxes. The interior surfaces will not be exposed masonry except for around the firebox, with very tradition mantles.I've not dealt with putting in a masonry fireplace before, and am having a hard time visualizing the foundation details and the details on up through the framing, particularly if the mass is straddling or outside. I'm looking for a good reference for how to spec that on the drawings.Steve
Edited 8/20/2009 8:00 pm by mmoogie
If I remember correctly this is a two fireplace two story
plus peak height deal right?
There is going to be substantial mass, by the time you face it
(with stone I assume) both inside and out.
I don't see any issues with draft regardless of envelope
position. One inch air space around the flue allows it to
heat up quickly (to draw properly) on top of providing required
fire code burn time.
Then the four inches of masonry, then your facing. just not much
to worry about.
It should function fine regardless of building envelope.
Yep, two story, two fireplaces, (three stories and three fireplaces if I let her get her way, but thankfully budget should rule that out) My biggest concern is the space issue. The guy who is building the fireplaces says the mass needs to be 3' x 6'. That plus the hearth takes a big chunk out f a 24x24 addition. I would rather have the mantle either flush with the interior surface of the exterior wall, or 12-18" into the room and flanked with bookcase/window seat units.I just have to decide which way to go before the foundation gets poured.I'm working on the foundation drawings for the permit, and would like to draw what's really going to happen, rather than something that'll have to be revised and signed off on by the engineer again.Outside would be several thousand dollars more, of courseAttached are exterior pix of the mass inside vs. outside.Steve
For design purposes, I'd have it pop out into the room 12'18" like you said.
Flush would work for a modern minimalist design.
shelves or built ins on both sides make it look like it belongs there.
So many people stop short and it just looks half complete. "There are three kinds of men: The one that learns by reading, the few who learn by observation and the rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."Will Rogers
It's a shame to cover all that ext. trim with a chimney.
Hey nice design, massing and detail - but . . .
In the North, you're going to have to have the chimney inside of an 18th-19th century styled house. Period.
That outside chimney looks like a southern house - I live here, and I know.
Forrest
As far as the foundation, we pour a 12" thick footing for a masonry chimney. Can be tied into the house footing if it's on an exterior wall, or stand alone for a interior chimney.If I had a choice I'd opt for an interior chimney every time. The airsealing, expansion/contraction, masonry clearance, freeze/thaw issues when you put a chimney on an exterior wall are a nightmare.Put it inside. No question in my mind.
I agree with you on all counts. Let me post the upstairs and downstairs floor plans. Maybe I'm just being too fussy about the congestion. The living room just gets a little choked off and I don't like what's going on in the upstairs bedroom very much.Steve
Very confusing - the second floor does not appear to me to align with the first, which seems to be 24' on your grid top to bottom. Or are the plans not to scale on the grid?
Are you sure you have these the same size?I agree with your *tightness* in the living room and would look toward the possibility of 'doubling back' the stairway (you can easily have a sloped ceiling over the powder room toilet (bottom of stair) for a bit. That will enable you to compact the plan a bit - the coffee table is on the fireplace hearth! You would get off the stair toward the left of the stairway right about where the toilet for the MBR is shown (that can move I think). The sitting area in the MBR would be reduced in width but you'd have a much better feeling of space in the bedroom itself
Also you can reduce the second floor masonry mass of the chimney if they would consider a wood stove there (just saying).
If some of these options won't work move the mass outside (all the way) as you say with a 24 x 24 addition you're running out of room.
Jeff
Edited 8/20/2009 11:29 pm ET by Jeff_Clarke
Jeff,The second floor drawing has a bunch of stuff around the edge showing the roof and and entablature trim that I neglected to make invisible when I snapped the second floor screen grab, so it looks like it's a different size when it's really not.hmmmm. interesting thought about doubling back the stairs. I originally had the stairs doubled back, but you entered through the living room, not the foyer. Just yesterday I changed it to the L layout and liked what it does for the foyer. Hadn't thought of rotating it 90 degrees.Woodstove upstairs, while giving the appearance of more room, would actually require more space than a fireplace would, I think.Steve
Jeff looks correct about the hearth not being accounted for. Then there's the chimney blocking the view from the kitchen if
you move it outside. Tough call.
>>In the North, you're going to have to have the chimney inside of an 18th-19th century styled house. Period.<<You are of course, correct. Take it further, though, in a house of this era, fireplaces were on their way out. They were being replaced by coal stoves and coal-burning fireplaces. There aren't a ton of Greek Revival fireplaces out there. Lots of chimney cabinets and parlor stoves. I agree with you on the look. An outside chimney stands out as wrong, but in a historical vacuum it looks nice.What's driving my ambivalence is the interior space issue. It's making the floorplan a little cramped. Not impossible, but not effortless feeling.Steve