I live in Montana. For those unfamiliar with the landscape here the trees that grow around here are pines, firs, spruces and poplars. Firewood choices are really limited.
I get to choose between cottonwood and pine. Of the two which is better? I’ve burned a grundle of pine but very little cottonwood. I can get some cottonwood really cheap, like the fuel to get it here in a 30′ side dump. The pine I’d pay a bit more for.
Who has burned both? What’ca think?
Thanks,
Lee
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Replies
neither one is that great. haven't burnt a ton of pine (just 2x4 scraps and stuff) but cottenwood burns quick and not very hot......
If you want heat, that you need to burn hardwoods.
Dense hardwoods simply are not an option. Pine or cottonwood, that's pretty much it and pine works, I've been burning it for years and you can heat with it. I'm just wondering how cottonwood at roughly half the cost works out.Thanks, Lee
In my years of heating with a LOT of species, I have to add to all the other posts that, mixing is a GOOD thing. Burn some of both..a too hot fire from just pine can be tempered by some not so dry aspen.
When ever I had a pile of just one species I once had 4 cords of ash, that was the exception...I found it lacked something..just a straight run of red oak, seems to need some other wood to "help" it now and again.
In your case, I'd mix it. BTW, places that toss shipping crates and pallets have a LOT of differnt woods in them...I just scored some 4x4x10' long cherry and curly maple today, from CU's copper supplier...my new bed, not fire wood.!!!! Motorcycle dealers have mahogony crates ( some do)...etc. Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Money don't talk, It Curses
(the other Bob)
"In your case, I'd mix it. BTW, places that toss shipping crates and pallets have a LOT of differnt woods in them..."
Duane,
You hit it right there. I've got tons of cottonwood (and box elder) on my property, and they burn like $hit in my 285,000BTU wood burning forced air furnace, even after years of drying. Pretty much don't burn, BUT they do burn when I add Honduras Mahogany and other similar kiln dried hardwoods I get from work for free into the mixture.
Jon
Hey stranger! Long time no post huh?
Yeppers, I used to score the "chocks" or 4x4 4' indonesian woods that my hardwood supplier would have laying around the yard and warehouse...awesome scores sometimes, some woods I never did know what they were, excepy HARD, Heavy and so loaded with silicates that the jointer would cringe when I began cleaning them up.
Ofcourse there also was scads of lesser neat stuff too..I burnt most of it before the move here to KY, but I saved a lot of IPE ( at 4x4) and some type of asian Beech..or sumptim. I just never have the time to actually do anything with them, so they, remain lumber spacers..HAHA...ironic to me.
Good to hear from ya. Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"We adore chaos, because we love to restore order"
Mauriets Chavailier Escher
Hey stranger! Long time no post huh?"
Been Busy. Fly out to NY to do work on some of the family homes on Monday. Might stop by Andy C's if I can swing it and check out his landmark house. So is your place done yet?
Jon
"my place done yet?"
What kinda drugs are YOU on..? LOL
I can see an end insight...but it is a slow road to travel. I seriously am looking at 2 yrs to get it to the point that I can kinda relax, and not go running around stomping out little bugaboos that crop up every now and again.
I bit off a lot here..my mind was willing , but my flesh ( and wallet) have gone weak...been a helluv summer on the "paying work" it really wipes ya out roofing in the extreme heat we had..it takes a toll on the body / mind relationship.
To add insult to injury, I realize my ears and eyebrows are growing hair faster than the hair on my head...either I am scratching the wrong places, or I am approaching the day where I become my father, or both.
Best to ya Jon..give Clifford a kick in the butt for me! ( kindly of course) Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"We adore chaos, because we love to restore order"
Mauriets Chavailier Escher
Dense hardwoods simply are not an option.
Is there a demand for hardwood firewood in your area? Seems like someone could make some money by hauling a semi load up there.
I can remember when I was a kid one year there were a few folks who were running loads of hay and firewood between MO and IL (wood from MO, hay from IL). At the time, firewood was expensive in IL while hay was expensive in MO (dry year). So they'd bring in a load of firewood and then haul back a load of hay.
Current gas prices would certainly have an effect on the bottom line though nowadays. Plus, you're hauling a goodly distance to get it to MT.
jt8
"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one getting burned."-- Buddha
Current gas prices would certainly have an effect on the bottom line though nowadays. Plus, you're hauling a goodly distance to get it to MT.
I remember a study published in 'Alternative Sources of Energy' periodical (yes, I remember the '70's) - bottom line was that you didn't have to haul firewood very far before you burned more energy in your truck than you gained in the wood - those mags are still around somewhere - 'bout time to dig them out again, looks to me -
"there's enough for everyone"
I remember a study published in 'Alternative Sources of Energy' periodical (yes, I remember the '70's) - bottom line was that you didn't have to haul firewood very far before you burned more energy in your truck than you gained in the wood - those mags are still around somewhere - 'bout time to dig them out again, looks to me -
Not to discount the tree huggers, but I'd be more concerened about burning more $$ than energy to haul it. :)
I can remember a thread last summer talking about hauling hay to TX and it was just not possible to do it because of the gas prices. Nead a freaking barge to make it affordable. good luck finding a canal from IN to MT though ;)
jt8
"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one getting burned."-- Buddha
You were mentioning areas with wood and questioning areas with out . You had guessed Ark had an abundance. North West Ark is blessed and is mainly our main stay of land use.
I would not have guessed Montana would have any problem but then others might not have guessed that there are few trees in parts of OK . In fact miles and miles of no trees. East Arkansas is not really blessed except in Cypress which only yeilds 28.5 at 12 percent weight but is an average of 150% moisture by volume green which to me in simple terms is 75 percent water melon! <G>
Tim
gotta think pine is signifigantly better, but I've only burned off-cuts of framing lumber -
burned a fair amount of cottonwood - definately a third tier wood - gotta get it dried out, fresh will be more water than wood, then it burns nice, hot, and fast, leaving no coals - it's fine mixed into a load of better species -
If you are going to depend upon the wood for heat you will go through a lot of it. And if you have been burning pine you know that all ready. Cottonwood is no better but if its your only choice than you have to us it.
If you do a search for wood density, you can get a pretty good idea. BTU output is pretty much linear with dry density.
A quick search turned up this chart: http://www.woodsgood.ca/woodDensity.htm
Poplar & cottonwood I believe are common names for various related trees in the Aspen family (not an expert here, but most of the cottonwood, aspen & poplars I've seen, cut & burned seemed to be quite similar). So, this chart lists Aspen at 26 pounds per cubic foot, and lists Pine (no species given) at 21-34 #/cu ft.
You could search around for more specific info, but looks to me like they're in the same ballpark. If one is significantly cheaper than the other, I'd go with it.
Here in NH, we use hardwoods for burning in the house (most run over 40#/cu. ft.), and save the softwoods (white pine, hemlock) and poplar for making maple syrup. Burns hot & fast - have to fill the firebox every 7-8 minutes!
The big thing with any wood, but especially the pitchy woods like pine, is to make sure it's dry.
Don
Thanks Don, a difference between pine and cottonwood is resin. Pine has it and cottonwood does not. I know that the resin adds something since it is volatile. I guess that what I'm getting here is that pine is the first choice, cottonwood second.Aspen, poplars and cottonwoods all belong to the genus populus. I'm sure there's some difference in cubic foot weights but probably not enough to sweat.Lee
My handy-dandy Pocket Ref by Thomas J. Glover says:
Aspen: 17 million BTU per cord
Cottonwood: 16
White Pine: 15
Ponderosa Pine: 19
Lodgepole Pine: 17
Pinon (?) Pine: 31 (!!!)
THe black cotton wood here is usually free, but it takes 2 years to dry.
Any chance you can trade someone a custom piece of furniture for a couple cords of oak/hickory? When they drive up to pick up the item, they can bring the firewood with them. I think Arkansas has a lot of oak and hickory. MO/IL has fair amounts of oak.
I'd really HATE to have to heat with cottonwood. And as someone else has probably already mentioned, pine can have pitch issues. Can lead to buildup in the stovepipe. Here's my favorite BTU site (which I posted in one of the other wood threads). Scroll down for the table of different woods.
http://ianrpubs.unl.edu/forestry/g881.htm
They've got Cottonwood as 15.8 million btu per cord. Various pines run 15-17. Red Oak 24.6. White oak 29.1, hickory27.5. Osage Orange 32.9.
I've seen your pics on Knots. I think you just need to network a bit and make a trade.
jt8
"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one getting burned."
-- Buddha
Would you have to split the wood yourself? Do you own a powered log splitter?
We had a couple of cottonwoods that I tried to split once. I only got through 7 or 8 rounds, using a maul, wedge, and sledge. It was ridiculously hard to split.
The power in my splitter is in my swing. I hope this stuff either comes in usable diameters or is easier to split than you say. But, hey, we've got a campfire pit outdoors, worst case scenario--- cottonwood gets the fire pit and we get some pine for the buildings.Lee
Heck, Lee, I tried to talk a friend into hauling hardwood up to ya, but I haven't heard back from him. He is going to be traveling from IA to ID in about a month. He's moving his Mom from ID to NE, and was considering taking his truck and 5th wheel trailer instead of renting a UHaul when he got there. I told him it seemed a shame to haul an empty trailer alllll the way to ID. ;)
jt8
"Real difficulties can be overcome; it is only the imaginary ones that are unconquerable. " --Theodore N. Vail
Well, dang it, we'll just have to keep fishing for another person willing to lose a ton of money hauling firewood cross country.I still have hope because in every village there resides an..., oops, gotta watch it around here or I might be joining others in the Detention Hall.Lee
Well, dang it, we'll just have to keep fishing for another person willing to lose a ton of money hauling firewood cross country.
I had talked to him on the phone a couple days ago. Actually, I think he's always wanted to see 'big sky' country, and the northern route to ID wouldn't have been THAT much longer than the NE one... You know, I think his only real objection to the idea was that he hadn't been stockpiling, and that his 5th wheel trailer could hold a He11 of a lot of firewood :)
Both he and his Dad use firewood during the winter, and they typically get it free for the taking (as in, 'please take this fallen oak tree out of my yard'). The summer 2004 wood will be getting burned this winter (they air dry in loafing sheds), and it sounded like him and Dad hadn't stocked a surplus in 2004.
I'll send him the link to your webpage, but I think those Swedes like simple lines (their house looks Shaker style to me) rather than that wonderfully fancy stuff you've got on your site.
jt8
"Real difficulties can be overcome; it is only the imaginary ones that are unconquerable. " --Theodore N. Vail
Hmmm, now that I think about it i'm not sure I've ever sold anything to a Swede, a Dutchman and Dutchwoman but never a Swede.Well, tell your friend to bring me firewood and I'll give him the Lutefisk festival calendar which includes about 15 stops in this state, I guess it just takes that much travelling to get rid of the stuff, fish and lye, whatta combination.Lee
Lee, the BTUs are about the same but the cottonwood will be harder to split and take longer to seasaon. The pine will have resins that can foul the flue faster with creosote if you don't dry it well and burn it hot. The cottonwood will have a higher ash content so you will be making more trips out of the house too.
Overall, I consider it to take more work to use cottonwood, aspen, or poplar than to use the pines and spruces, for about the same heat energy. Another factor for me here is that with the wet climate I have, these woods can go moldy by the time they dry which is discouraging.
So there are reasons why people give away these woods.
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I've heard about the splitting issue, apparently the poplar will absorb a maul without splitting. I had a guy tell me to go after it when it's about 0 degrees, it's more brittle then and easier to split. Well, it's gonna be the wood of the year this year. It's too cheap to pass up coming in around a third of the price of pine. Hmmm, will I be cursing all poplars in four months? We'll see.Lee
I suspect cottonwood is similar to aspen. If so it burns hot and fast when dried properly. In nothern michigan we have lots of aspen and I cut and split whatever is down on my property. Mostly I burn it during the fall and spring when I want a fast fire to take the chill out but not roast me out of the house. I like burning aspen since it burns clean with no resin buildup in the chimney. I avoid pine since the pitch makes a greasy smoke that can lead to large amounts of creasote deposits.
Thanks Armin, I would guess the two are very similar too. It's cottonwood this year, I hope it works out, the price sure is right at around $15 a cord in lengths.Lee
I usually burn most of my furniture attempts...
-------------------------------
People are entitled to their own opinions; People are not entitled to their own truth.
Jacob
Man, have I got a LOT of firewood for you! (heh heh)
If it didn't cost so much to ship it, I have about 5 years worth of firewood just laying around.
Anyway, getting back to the discussion... I heat my home with a wood burning stove, and pine has worked well for me (we have an OVER abundance of pine around here). Hardwoods are much better, but pine has served me well. You just have to clean the chimney a lot more. James DuHamel
He who dies with the most toys.... Still dies!
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