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firing a client

bstcrpntr | Posted in Business on July 19, 2006 12:29pm

Have a client that has paid his deposit on the original bid that was done off of sketches he and I did.   Have not started project.  It has a two week window that starts the first of august.  He has been calling me everyday for about an hour a day we talk on the phone.  CHANGES, and MORE CHANGES, can we keep the same deadline. 

He doesn’t want me to subout anything, says he will help.

This is a cost plus project, I personally don’t believe he will save a dime if I have to teach him to do things while I am on his clock.

I have a face to face with him in 2 1/2 hours and I think I am gonna fire him. 

basic scope of what he wants now is

2200 sq feet of tile

new carpet

remove drop ceiling and some walls in basement and hang drywall and refinish and paint everything  bsmt is 2500sq ft

and the original $14,000.00 bathroom remodel.

I have his cabinets for bathroom ordered and all other bathroom stuff, but I can’t do this in two weeks.

He is not my only job going on right now

all thoughts appreciated

 

I hope Chuck Norris never potato sacks me!!!!

bstcrpntr —   I hope to grow into this name.

Reply

Replies

  1. MikeSmith | Jul 19, 2006 12:52am | #1

    best... as jeff buck would say...  you let your customer grab you by the belt loops

    i would be reluctant to back out of this... at the same time we both know it ain't gonna work unless you get back in the driver's seat

    if you can do that .. and build the job the way YOU want to build it ( subs or not )

    then you can salvage this

    it sounds like your customer is pretty excited about the project ... or am i missing something ?

    Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
    1. User avater
      bstcrpntr | Jul 19, 2006 01:00am | #3

      He is the most excited client I have had in two years, no qualms on prices, no one else even asked to bid this work, got it solely on reputation.

      I want my beltloops backI hope Chuck Norris never potato sacks me!!!!

      bstcrpntr ---   I hope to grow into this name.

  2. MSA1 | Jul 19, 2006 12:59am | #2

    Customer wants help? If you can put up with, that theres an extra charge for holding class at work everday right? Nothing wrong with a customer hanging around but I run my business the most effecient way I know and thats usually not with the HO helping.

    In bring in Subs because I believe its the best value for me and the customer. No sense in me spending and hour setting a valve or drain that my plumber can install in 15 min.

    1. User avater
      bstcrpntr | Jul 19, 2006 01:04am | #4

      I want to sub some of the tile floors out while I tile and redo the bathroom.

      I have plumber lined up, diong the minor electric myself. 

      He is ok with subbing as long as it isn't subbign stuff I normally do for customers myself.

      If it is not up to my standards, it won't be accepted from a sub, so whats the big deal? It is still my reputation if this goes sour, and I won't let that get affected.

       I hope Chuck Norris never potato sacks me!!!!

      bstcrpntr ---   I hope to grow into this name.

      1. MSA1 | Jul 19, 2006 01:11am | #5

        I agree. You have a standard and you must keep it up. If a customer says below my standard is fine I have a problem. I build the best I can and thats that. Same with my subs, they need to produce what I want to see or they dont hang around.

        You're right, there are some things I do myself and dont sub out and thats not a problem, but my helper helps not the homeowner(unless its friend that i'm helping out).

        1. User avater
          bstcrpntr | Jul 19, 2006 01:15am | #6

          Guess I am just going to tell him to give me back my beltloops.  Then sit him down and explain that I won't till or spray his field if he leaves my tile alone.I hope Chuck Norris never potato sacks me!!!!

          bstcrpntr ---   I hope to grow into this name.

          1. MSA1 | Jul 19, 2006 01:18am | #7

            Good Luck.

  3. davidmeiland | Jul 19, 2006 02:18am | #8

    My first thought is, don't back out. He has not been hostile or refused to pay or anything like that.

    The problem is your fault. You needed to act early to rein him in on scheduling, and you needed to act early to set the terms (i.e. "I will sub X, Y, and Z, and maybe PD&Q if needed--that's how it works and I have great subs so chill out"). At this point you can still set all the terms, but do it face to face and be prepared to get a little humble as a preface to doing so. Regain control and do the job.

    1. User avater
      bstcrpntr | Jul 19, 2006 02:39am | #11

      you may be right.  He has pushed me to 7:30 so I have 45 mins to get humble and complete my strategyI hope Chuck Norris never potato sacks me!!!!

      bstcrpntr ---   I hope to grow into this name.

  4. User avater
    skip555 | Jul 19, 2006 02:23am | #9

    are you billing him for the hour a day you spend on the phone ?

    if not time to start .

    1. User avater
      bstcrpntr | Jul 19, 2006 02:38am | #10

      haven't billed him for that yet, but plan on telling him that from now on I will be, that is definately going to be brought up tonight.  I had that planned, as part of the I am not gonna quit but planI hope Chuck Norris never potato sacks me!!!!

      bstcrpntr ---   I hope to grow into this name.

      1. BryanSayer | Jul 19, 2006 03:02am | #12

        Try and impress upon him how important it is to settle on the plans so that you can order the proper materials (like tile with 3 month lead times) and so that you can give him a fair fixed price. If he wants to help, tell him he can clean up and maybe do demolition (wasn't there something about removing a drop ceiling?) But tell him that the way you keep on schedule is to do or arrange the work according to the plan.Maybe if necessary set him up with a designer, so that he isn't using your time.

  5. DougU | Jul 19, 2006 04:30am | #13

    I learned early on that changes and corners is where the money is. Let him make all the changes that he wants, but charge for them. I love changes!

    As for the schedule, what did you tell him when he asked if you can still keep it? If you said yes then its your fault, not his.  You needed to let him know if the time line is still reasonable, if you didn't then why would he be the one in the wrong?

    Whose running this job

    Doug

    1. User avater
      JeffBuck | Jul 19, 2006 04:32am | #14

      I love changes!

       

      aka ...

      "cha-ching orders"!

       

      I like to make them as painful as possible after the final scope and design is nail down and agreed upon after the million-ith revision ... once the work starts ... unless something pops up and its necessary ... it's gonna cost.

      'cause one way or another ... each and every change costs me at least a day's time.

      Jeff    Buck Construction

       Artistry In Carpentry

           Pittsburgh Pa

      1. User avater
        bstcrpntr | Jul 19, 2006 05:19am | #20

        "cha-ching orders"!

        I like that.  I also agree that once you start cha-ching orders cost a whole day.

        That's a lot of time on a two week job.I hope Chuck Norris never potato sacks me!!!!

        bstcrpntr ---   I hope to grow into this name.

    2. User avater
      bstcrpntr | Jul 19, 2006 05:18am | #19

      When I started talking of "trying" to keep his schedule is when he started his I want to help routine.   He has the money to do what hwe wants to do.  I could get it all done in two weeks if he would turn me loose to run the job.

      I am running the job.  Just want to find a nice way to explain things to him.

      The meeting for this evenign was pushed since he locked his keys in his car.

      I did prepare a bill "to date" to help him see the time i have involved.

      He showed me pics of what he wanted, I sketched something up and gave him a number.  I do not do the ,'what color do I want, or do you like this tile" type questions.  Those are for him.

      Would hate to get done and he love the craftsmanship but blame me for crappy color choices.

       I hope Chuck Norris never potato sacks me!!!!

      bstcrpntr ---   I hope to grow into this name.

      1. DougU | Jul 19, 2006 05:35am | #24

        bst

        I think I'd hang onto this guy, sound like you  can make good money and snag some referals at the same time.

        The part about him wanting to help would maybe bother me but you have to feel that one out yourself, might work for ya.

        I have a BIL that's a doc, you know, they can save lives so of course doing this stupid carpentry stuff is easy for them, he always wants me  to give him a price with him as a helper. I tell him  that without him it'll be $500, with him, $700! He's tight and thinks he can control the money flow, he does but not like he  thinks! :)

        Doug

        1. peteduffy | Jul 28, 2006 05:43am | #31

          Similar to that, there's a sign in the ACE hardware:

          Labor rate: $50/hr

          If you watch: $75/hr

          If you help: $100/hr

          I have passed that on to some of my clients when they start to get in the way.  I usually don't mind them watching, since most times they're just curious [and in awe of what I'm doing :) ]  But when they become "helpful" I tell them about the sign.  The humor helps, but the point gets across, and I get back to work.

           

           Pete Duffy, Handyman

      2. User avater
        bstcrpntr | Jul 28, 2006 03:08am | #29

        An update to my original.

        Job will be starting Monday.  This gives me more time for what is now the first phase.  The second phase will start close to the end of the first one.

        He has decided what is priority and what is not, hence the phases.

        He has understanding about what he is asking for and has great potential as a customer.

        The second phase is not on a time schedule for completion and is about three times the size of the original job I bid for him.

        Thanks to all who encouraged me to stay with this one.I hope Chuck Norris never potato sacks me!!!!

        bstcrpntr ---   I hope to grow into this name.

        1. Hiker | Jul 28, 2006 05:10am | #30

          Congrats!!

  6. Mooney | Jul 19, 2006 04:45am | #15

    Oh but I love you guys doing the "customer experience " .  Wheres Jerald?

    shakin  head

    Ill read the thread now .

    Tim

    1. Mooney | Jul 19, 2006 04:50am | #17

      I still dont know what to say but dont listen to me .

      Tim

    2. User avater
      bstcrpntr | Jul 19, 2006 05:20am | #21

      You lost me there.

      I would love to hear what Hayes has to say.I hope Chuck Norris never potato sacks me!!!!

      bstcrpntr ---   I hope to grow into this name.

      1. Mooney | Jul 19, 2006 05:34am | #23

         

         

        You lost me there.

        I would love to hear what Hayes has to say.

         

        Well , ... you would have to read the slow times thread . I just had figgured you had. Sorry. To me your thread post and that thread makes it a classic. For me any way. Read it if you have time .

        Nothing disrespectful about Jerald at all , just cracked me up is all.

        Tim

        1. User avater
          bstcrpntr | Jul 19, 2006 05:49am | #25

          Did you mean the thread "how to survive the slow times?" n my screen it is under my thread, do I have the right one?I hope Chuck Norris never potato sacks me!!!!

          bstcrpntr ---   I hope to grow into this name.

          1. Mooney | Jul 19, 2006 05:54am | #26

            Yes

    3. Hiker | Jul 19, 2006 01:38pm | #27

      As a "customer experience" guy, when I sign a contract with client, we discuss money and changes quite extensively so there is little if any confusion.  One statement that is always made and is clearly detailed in the contract is "if you decide to make any changes, a change order along with associated cost of the change and impact to schedule will be signed and paid for prior to commencing any additional work." 

      Then I proceed to let them know this is done to protect us both.  I, the contractor am protected by the  contractual addition of this work to the project and you the home owner now have a contractually revised cost and schedule for the change.  These changes help maintain control of the project.

      In terms of dealing with the time that a needy client with changes requires, that is easy.  Add an hour or two or three to the fixed price change order to account for that time.  Frankly most clients would not notice the difference between a $350 or $400 or for that matter $450 change order unless you add a line of 1 hour labor $50.  All our change orders have a lump sum price for the change-no detail.

      I have found that most clients cannot understand hourly billing rates and material markup so I just don't go there.  All our pricing is fixed lump sum. 

      This guys sounds like a dream, I would keep him.

      Bruce

      Edited 7/19/2006 6:39 am ET by Hiker

  7. maverick | Jul 19, 2006 04:50am | #16

    I had to cut a guy loose just recently. I gave him a bid then all the changes poured in. I finally told him the original bid was for things I do often, all the extras although not out of my scope were a PITA for me and were not freebies.

    That coupled with the bad vibes I was getting made me scare him off with my ammended bid

    1. Mooney | Jul 19, 2006 04:52am | #18

      Ok Ill do it .

      If you were alone on his job with him it can start a great relationship as long as you are getting paid but I dont think thats whats going on. Ive worked with owners before and I didnt find it too bad as long as Im on the pay roll.

      Tim

    2. User avater
      bstcrpntr | Jul 19, 2006 05:21am | #22

      I gety good vibes from this guy.

      I know he will be tickeled when we are done.

      I also believe he knows lots of people.

      Gonna try not to fire him.I hope Chuck Norris never potato sacks me!!!!

      bstcrpntr ---   I hope to grow into this name.

  8. User avater
    PearceServices | Jul 19, 2006 02:53pm | #28

    It sounds to me like you are reluctant to install the tile. 2200 square feet can be tough on the body. I would prefer to sub that too.

    Maybe you could tell him that based on the amount of floor tile, you need to hire helpers for that portion of the job. Then bring your sub in. You can help with the layout, and look like you are running the crew. While you are pretending to run the tile install, you can bang out some of the other work.

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