I wanted to hear from you guys what you would have done in the following situation.
I recently hired a painter to strip the wallpaper and paint a master bath remodel I had done. I met with him, checked his references, and we agreed that he would start on a Tuesday.
He shows up on tuesday at 9:30 and starts to strip the wallpaper with a liquid stripping agent. After about an hour of getting nowhere he goes to get a wallpaper steamer. He comes back with the steamer and all seems to be going well, so I left to check on another project. Before I left I went over everything with him, explained what I expected and asked him when He thought he would be finished so that I could schedule the other subs. He tells me Thursday. Ok I will schedule the other subs for friday.
I was unable to get out to the project untill Friday morning, however the homeowner called me thursday night. They wanted to know why the painter wasn’t really making any progress. I told them to give him a chance to finish, the wallpaper can be a little tough to get off. I pull up to the job on friday morning and the painters are nowhere to be found. I gave him a call and he says that he did’t want to work aroud the plumber and electrician so he would be out on monday.
I made it out to the project on monday afternoon expecting the painters to be there, but surprise suprise no painters. I quickly get him on the phone and he gives me some lame excuse as to why he is not there, I tell him that he is two days late in completing the project and that I would like to meet him at the job now. He shows up apologizes for not being there and tells me that he will spend the rest of the afternoon there to get it ready for paint tomorrow. I found out from the homeowner that he left right behind me.
Tuesday morning comes and I am at the project babysitting these painters. They seem to be doing ok. I asked him when he thought he would be done with the whole project, stressing first that I did not want things rushed, and he tells me this afternoon. How, I wonder can this guy get the joint compound on the wall let it dry prime, 2 coats of paint on the wall, and two coats of paint on the trim. He tells me he does it all the time. So I gave him the benefit of the doubt and let himm continue on till about noon. At noon I had to leave and he still had no paint on the wall. I told him that I would like him to be here when I returned in three hours so that we could discuss the project. He says ok.
I get back at three and they had painted the bathroom walls, trim and beadboard. The walls had bubbles in the paint and they painted the beadboard horizontaly so there were drips and runds everywhere. I pointed these ou to him amd be tells me no problem I will fix them. No sooner did I finish Talking to him that his helper starts painting the beadboard fo a fourth time in the wrong direction. So he takes him off of the beadboard and tells himm to paint trim. All the trimm he painted is now covered in lap marks. After telling him four times some of the issues I had with the paint job and having him try to fix them I asked him to leave and That I would pay him for what he had done.
So he left and the next day I was able to get my painter in there. I met my painter ou there and noticed that all of the trimm paint was coming off just scraping it with your fingernail. The original painter never sanded the gloss trim so nothing was sticking. I immediatly went out and canceled the original painters check.
So the original painter calls me today and I tell him what happened and why I canceled the check and that I would send him another but it would be for less than this check. He tells me that he is going to sue me and hangs up.
I think I did the right thing, I gave the guy a chance to fix the problems but he wouldn’t do it. I am willing to give him a check because he is entitled to something just no the full amount.
Sorry it was so long. But I appreciateyour feedback.
Tim
Replies
when he left the first time, you should have fired his lazy, lying #### then.
my helper is steaming off wallpaper as we speak
I'm supposed to be checking in on my daughter's semester abroad program but Breaktime wins out
from your description sounds like your painter may owe you money
you sound more than reasonable to me - document all you can; pictures? & client statement - maybe could get one from the painter who is to make this right
why does it sound too familiar to me
pains me
suit will not happen & hope it ends there
Sub-contractors are driving me crazy, too. One flooring guy installs the wrong floor after failing to keep five appointments. Shows up and does the job without telling me. Another carpet layer tried to tuck in an inch and a half of extra thick Karastan. Opened all the baseboard corners, left dirty hand marks completely around a buttercream painted room. Looked like ring around the tub. New plumber on an addition this winter. Told him the building would not be heated, make sure there is no water in the pipes. You know the rest. Broken pipes found after sheetrock and paint. It's impossible to find decent painters. I show up at this nice home to find a crew of painters sanding down green painted shutters in the kitchen and garage. White kitchen and finished garage. Green dust everywhere, probably lead, we didn't have any shutters on this job. I go inside, and instead of trying to cut the ceiling and wall, different colors, he has overlapped 2". Don't worry he says I'll cut the last coat in and you won't see it. I won't see it if I go blind. An electrician and his helper show up at the shop to install some 220v drops. The kid wires the male plug end to the drops. Good thing nobody touched one when he juiced them up.
The level of incompetence I'm seeing lately makes me want to quit contracting, before I just shoot somebody. I think you did the right thing. Sounds like you maintained your cool, acted professionally and with respect. Even though it wasn't due. Slim chance he will have the means to follow through with a law suit. You have been more than fair. These days you have to act more like doctors and dentists. Write down every possible detail and make sure they sign. You can't take anything for granted, even something as simple as a painter knowing how to use a brush. May as well do it yourself, it would take less time than it does chasing and our blood pressure would drop.
Wow, I was gonna complain about sparkies showing up three weeks late and doing only 85% of the job
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Too late but I'd double check with my bank for future reference. In some areas, including mine, you can only stop payment on a check for things like loss of check etc. Stopping payment over a dispute is considered fraud...
Other than that, I agree the guy oughta be wearing a butcher's apron on the job.
>>"Stopping payment over a dispute is considered fraud...
That's pretty strict.
Most places it's only fraud if you didn't intend to pay at the time you gave the check (like closed account or NSF would pretty much do it). State technically has the burden to show your intent to defraud but as a practical matter, it's on the maker of the check. If you can show dispute arose after you handed over the check (like a defect discovered the next day) you have a very good shot at being in the clear.
Most cops (at least locally) hate to get involved in civil disputes. Just becomes civil lawsuit on top of suit (fraud allegation turns into suit for malicious prosecution, throw in defamation, round and round she goes . . .).
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
I'm sure it varies by locale but I can tell you that I personally have had people arrested for stopping payment on checks (albeit very large) and on the very rare occasions I've had to issue a stop my bank has told me that they will only issue a stop if I attest that the check was lost etc...
Anyyyyyyyyway...
How did you get someone arrested?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
IIRC, all I did was call the cops and sign an affidavit stating that I received the check and that payment was stopped. No excuses were allowed, short of MY reporting it lost.
In the case of bounced checks, which I had a few large ones (again IIRC) in CT you have to send them a registered letter with return receipt giving them at least 10 but no more than 30 days to make it good, and you cannot accept a partial payment. I think it's likely many PDs won't go through the hassle of persuing it for you but ours is veryyyyyyyyy good. They actually sent a Detective once to MA from CT to collar a guy who stiffed me for a few grand. Had him call me from the lockup to arrange restitution...gotta love it ;)
Always made sure to do anything I could for those guys...
>>"I'm sure it varies by locale but I can tell you that I personally have had people arrested for stopping payment on checks . . . .
Works for me. Wish it was like that here. More people might actually accept checks. ;-)
If it works that way where the OP is, maybe go after the painter for extortion or obtaining property by false pretences in accepting the check. ;-)
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
In my opinion you were far too patient. Should have cut him loose the moment you found out he left right after you did. Now you look like crap to the homeowner no matter how it comes out. You did the right thing firing him and canceling his check. DanT
It takes a certain amount of faculty's to run a business or even paint, not much for the latter IMO. Faculty's that the man does'nt possess.
It would take even more conviction to follow through with a law suit knowing full well he would'nt stand a chance in front of an arbitration board or a judge
Give him what you think is fair and send him down the road
He must get around.
2 weeks ago I just striped some wallpaper from one of his jobs.
The lower part was painted. The HO said that the first time he did not repair it. Then it repaired it and painted over the wet DW.
Similar on the upper part that was painted. Put it over existing painted paper. And did not do any repairs. Pulled it off and did some repiars, but it still showed where the old border was and what was and wasn't WP.
When I got the first layer off I started feeling damp mud in one area. And this had been done for a least a week.
In another I gotten somethign sticky and white on my hand. Think that it was wet primer.
I would leave the check cancelled. You could pay him a lesser amount or none at all. There is a standard in construction that all of us follow. There are some very high standards that I would assume that most of the people on this forum use and some minimum standards which govern the trades as a whole. It sounds to me that this guy didn't follow the minimum standards. He can only sue and win if he can prove that the work that he perfomed met the minimum standards set by his peers in the painting trade. it doesn't seem like any of these standards were met. Chances are that he won't sue due to the overwhelming costs that would be associated with it but wierder things have happened. The thing I would be worried about would be a lien on the house that he worked on. Just a couple of thoughts....
Paperhanger is totaly right. The only thing you did wrong was to keep giving him more rope to hang himself. This guy was trouble from the start.
As the guy who is employing him you need to know when he will complete his portion of the job. His total disregard for the quality of work and for other trades will not give him a solid foundation for a law suit against you.
I used to think unskilled labor was making painters look bad now it turns out "painters" (heavy quotes there) are making us look bad.
Cancel the whole cheque,
Jon
I was thinking about this thread today (while painting no less) and thought, wonder who the references were and what were they thinking? DanT
I don't think he is entitled to anything. You should probably be charging him for having to correct his mistakes.
Just MHO.
i'll go with that
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I'll third the motion.
All those in favor say Aye!
Aye!
blue
Tim, best of luck on the outcome of this problem. I hope all turns out well for you.
I think you learned a valuable lesson. Never turn a new hire loose on a job you cannot be at or monitor constantly. Your job as a contractor depends on you being in control of and guaranteeing your high quality of work. Too many times I've seen small operations overextending themselves to their own detriment.
A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Edited 5/18/2006 6:23 am ET by calvin
There's nothing I love more than threads about incompetent painters. So here goes. You can generally tell in the first 5 minutes of his actually doing any painting whether a painter is any good or a hack. Sometimes, a quick chat will tell you, because he's gonna say something stupid, like I can prep, prime and paint the room in the same afternoon. There's no benefit of the doubt involved. Like the laws of physics, some things just can't happen, and he's just told you he intends to defy the laws of physics.
As soon as you know that, it's over. You know this painter is going to botch the job. You know there's no way anything else can happen. So why would you possibly let him continue? A REAL painter (because the hack is not a real painter, just a moron with a paintbrush) does his work properly from the second he starts until he's done. He doesn't priime like pig and tell you he'll fix it later. He doesn't look at paint until his prep is complete. And the minute he starts making excuses, he's telling you he's a hack and you make the choice of letting him continue or not.
Personally, I think you owe this hack his check. You hired a hack, found out he was a hack and still had him continue. He may have sucked, but it's not his fault you chose to let a hack do your work. He let you know 20 different ways that he was a hack, and you still invited him back. If you fired him in the first 10 minutes, then you protected your job. As soon as you let him back in the door, you accepted this hack as your painter and you got what he delivered. Whose fault is that?
SHG
For every complex problem, there is a solution that is clear, simple, and wrong.
-H.L. Mencken
Bad day or what?
I had to give the guy a chance to fix the issues I had. I believe mass state law says something to the effect that before a contractor can be fired he has to be given the chance to fix the issues. I gave him his chance and then fired him.
Thanks Guys
Live and learn I guess. I know he doesn't have a leg do stand on and I really don't expect to get sued.
I know he doesn't have a leg do stand on and I really don't expect to get sued.
Since when did that stop anyone!
I feel for ya, makes you look bad in front of the customer all while your actually trying to give them what they deserve.
I'd stop calling the guy a painter though, doesnt sound like he is one.
Doug
been reading some of the responses to your post. For once I feel lucky! I can relate to the frustrations that go along with subs, but my paint sub is top notch. Shows up,does great work,and never leaves a mess. I cannot say enough good about the guy and his crew.