Well, this may sound a little strange but after being a carpenter for the last 8 years I’m finally building my first house. Not one that would ever grace the pages of Fine Homebuilding, but still pretty cool none the less. Most of the work I do is concrete form work on commercial structures; buildings, bridges, the occasional pier (the kind you tie ships to) etc. Although I have your basic framing skills including stair and rafter framing, I am lacking extensive homebuilding knowledge. So throughout the course of this building adventure of mine I’m really counting on all of you to guide me through the various pitfalls I’m sure to encounter. Presently I’m in permit limbo, having just submitted last week, so in the meantime I’m scouring the plans trying to get an idea of how I’m going to do some of this work. So, for now I’m setting up a game plan for the footings and foundation and pretty much have it all worked out except for one thing; I’m wondering about grounding for my electrical. I’m thinking what I need to do is run an extra bar in my footing (continuous) and 90 it up in two places,6 feet apart, and have them protrude from the footing. Am I on the right track? How far up should they stick out? Also, I’m considering buying the IRC and NEC code books. I don’t think I’m going to be building many houses, do you think it’s necessary?
Discussion Forum
Discussion Forum
Up Next
Video Shorts
Featured Story
The "She Build" initiative is empowering women in Seattle, WA by ensuring they have safe, healthy homes.
Featured Video
Builder’s Advocate: An Interview With ViewrailHighlights
"I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.
Replies
Buy the books, or try the library, or best of all, save the money for beer and ask your questions here....
Expert since 10 am.
are you doing your own electrical?
You are in the similar boat I was in couple years ago when I was building my house. I had about 8 years framing experience. However it was extensively with residential, and I was quite familiar with how most of a house goes together.
I did have plenty of questions however and most were answered here at break time.
Good luck, books are always worth having
Sounds like you're going to be learning a great deal in a big hurry.
I'm in a similar situation, starting over with many new materials now, after forty years in the trade. It's going to be interesting and, I hope, fun to build a new home with ICF forms and other odd things, for the first time.
I've asked a bunch of questions on this forum over the last few months and found at least one person who really knew their stuff, each time.
There's a wealth of real experience available here, that's for sure.
Here's one suggestion, to help you get the answers you need. Separate your posts into numerous paragraphs, as I've done here. That will help anyone who reads your posts to follow your thoughts more easily.
It's a visual thing mainly, but it's also a way to break it up mentally too.
It's like breathing. Your wouldn't want to take one breath and hold it until you'd completed your thought, right? That's what it's like, reading a post with no visual breaks.
I hope that this post provides an example of how that all works. It's an exaggeration, I know, but it's meant to indicate how visual punctuation helps to separate and clarify thoughts.
Best wishes for a great experience, building your first home. From my own experience, it's the best of the best for any carpenter, both building it and living inside.
Concerning the code books, you didn't say what state (etc) you live in. Different localities use different books, and your state, county, etc, may likely have added amendments to the IRC or whatever model code (base code) they use. Take a look at this link to find out more about that. You could also ask someone at your local inspections/building/etc dept. For example, we use a modified IRC 2000, but just a generic copy of the IRC would not do so, I'd say buy the appropriate residential building code book for your locality. Concerning the NEC book, buy it if you do not intend to hire an electrician. Assuming your work will be inspected, a code book is often similar in price to the cost of one re-inspection fee - or at least that is the way it is where I live.
To add what someone said above, since you will undoubtedly have a number of Q's over the next year's time when you post a Q, don't just think about what you need to know, think about what we need to know about your project to answer your Q and provide that info. At least adding your location to your BT user profile is a good first step. Also, avoid mixing completely separate topics into one thread, and give your threads meaningful titles rather than stuff like "I have a Q" or "what do you think about this". :-)
Regarding producing really meaningful posts, a picture (photo) is worth a... you know, and simple a drawing often helps a lot. A very basic drawing program like even M/S Paint can often be used, of if you happen to have access to a scanner, a scanned sketch often works well too and is quicker.
BTW tell us a bit about the house - how big, what style, the lot, etc. What phases of the work do you plan to do yourself?
Although you have already submitted your plans for approval, it's still not too late to get some design ideas as far as interior and exterior finishes and design elements. One thing that annoys me is that I more often than not see these houses built with no design theme - little bit of this, little bit of that, etc.
When I started building homes, the first thing I did was get the best mechanical subs I could find.......and allowed them to do their thing....in a normal house it's pretty much samo-samo.
I worried about the stuff I knew ...carpentry, tile, etc.
Each sub gets a set of decent prints......gives you a price.
You sit down with him and listen to what he's got in mind.... if you approve, tell him you'll let him know in advance when it's his turn to show up. If he has a problem, show up ...otherwise stay out of his way.
Let him know you will inspect his work (as will the inspector) and as soon as it's approved pay him....not too soon and definetly not too late.
Do the whole thing yourself and think.......is all this extra time gonna pay off or would it have been less expensive in the long run to hire a sub.
peace.......a great excuse to start a war.
Thanks all for the input. I plan on doing as much of the work myself as possible.It's a weekend cabin, nothing fancy, 22'X28' with a gambrel roof. Two levels, two beds, two baths, kit, din, liv, util. I get plans and a shell package and the rest is up to me. I'll try and post an elevation and floorplan later.By the way I'm building up at Lake Cushman, Wa. It's right next to the Olympic mts, and up the hill, S.W. from Hood Canal.
"I'm wondering about grounding for my electrical. I'm thinking what I need to do is run an extra bar in my footing (continuous) and 90 it up in two places,6 feet apart, and have them protrude from the footing. Am I on the right track? How far up should they stick out?"
I think that you are mixing apples and hamburger.
First of all electrical services vary drastically from location to location. Both by specific code amendments and also local practices. Also the power company often has special requirements, althought they might not affect the ground electrode system.
Thus I suggest that you contact the inspector (if any) and the POCO for what details that they want.
IF you have a qualifying metallic water pipe, concrete encased electrode, metal frame, or ground ring then THOSE MUST BE USED. In residential construction you probaly don't have the later two.
Here are the requirements for the first two.
"(1) Metal Underground Water Pipe A metal underground water pipe in direct contact with the earth for 3.0 m (10 ft) or more (including any metal well casing effectively bonded to the pipe) and electrically continuous (or made electrically continuous by bonding around insulating joints or insulating pipe) to the points of connection of the grounding electrode conductor and the bonding conductors. Interior metal water piping located more than 1.52 m (5 ft) from the point of entrance to the building shall not be used as a part of the grounding electrode system or as a conductor to interconnect electrodes that are part of the grounding electrode system."
"(3) Concrete-Encased Electrode An electrode encased by at least 50 mm (2 in.) of concrete, located within and near the bottom of a concrete foundation or footing that is in direct contact with the earth, consisting of at least 6.0 m (20 ft) of one or more bare or zinc galvanized or other electrically conductive coated steel reinforcing bars or rods of not less than 13 mm ( 1/ 2 in.) in diameter, or consisting of at least 6.0 m (20 ft) of bare copper conductor not smaller than 4 AWG. Reinforcing bars shall be permitted to be bonded together by the usual steel tie wires or other effective means."
You only need one connection and you don't need a separate rebar.
That said I am not real comfortable with the idea of having to handle the ground electrode conductor and keep it protected until installing the service.
I don't know if the inspector will buy this or not, but I would like to see one end of a connected rebar bent up and have it go into a box that is faces the inside of the foundation walls or the outside wall, above ground.
Then after you strip the foundation walls you will have an above ground place to make a connection to the grounding electrode conductor.
See ufer.jpg.
The 2nd show the ground electrode system connections with the different types of electrodes that you might have.
If you use a Ufer (concrete encased) electrode there is no need for ground rods.
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Thanks for the info. So... bond the grounding electrode to a 20' continuous no.4 rebar and i can use the galvanized steel water supply pipe (which happens to be near my electrical service). In my area I believe were supposed to have two grounding electrodes spaced 6 feet apart. I will contact my building dept. and ask them as well. I just don't want to miss anything that needs to be in my footing... j bolts, tie downs, ufer bar...etc.
This may be contrary to the experience of most posters here, judging from the grousing about inspectors that's so common, but the inspectors in my area have always been VERY helpful. That goes for building, plumbing and electrical. Nice guys, willing to come to the site and go over prospective options, plans, etc. My experience is that if you engage them early and often, things will go a lot smoother. The advice you'll get here is great, but no matter how good it is, you'll still need to get the inspector's OK in the end, so why not get his view at the beginning? Get your money's worth out of your permitting fees and use the inspectors to your advantage.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
I realize this is off topic, but why do ufers work? It seems to me that the concrete around the bar has the effect of insulating it from ground?
Concrete is hydroscopic (I know that is not the right term, but close) and will wick moisture. That is reason that sill plates are suppose to be rot resistant.And you have a large surface area. So while one square inch might not be that great of conductor the whole assembly is. But I don't have any numbers on it.It was developed during WWII to protect amo bunkers..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
I'm sure you heard this already...drive an 8ft copper rod into the ground by the service drop, clamp on a ground line and run it to your panel; and/or run a ground line to the water main coming into the house.
Thanks, everyone, for your advice. I guess I want to avoid pounding an 8' rod in the ground just 'cause it sounds like a PIA. I'll definitely check with the building dept. as well.
"I'm sure you heard this already...drive an 8ft copper rod into the ground by the service drop, clamp on a ground line and run it to your panel; and/or run a ground line to the water main coming into the house."That is completely wrong.First it is not "and/or" on the water line. IF THE WATER LINE QUALIFIES AS A GROUND ELECTRODE IT MUST BE USED. But a water line can't be used as the sole ground electrode.A ground rod, IF USED, must either be tested to be less than 25 ohms or two ground rods are required. The test requires specialized tester or procedure and is not commonly done. So TWO ground rods are used. But that is only if you are using ground rods.And the Ufer (concrete encased electrode is required unless you can't do it.Here is wht the handbook to the code says."Section 250.50 introduces the important concept of a ``grounding electrode system,'' in
which all electrodes are bonded together, as illustrated in Exhibit 250.21. Rather than
total reliance on a single grounding electrode to perform its function over the life of the
electrical installation, the NEC encourages the formation of a system of electrodes
``that are present at each building or structure served.'' There is no doubt that building a
system of electrodes adds a level of reliability and helps ensure system performance
over a long period of time.
This section was revised for the 2005 Code to clearly require the inclusion of a
concrete-encased electrode, described in 250.52(A)(3), in the grounding electrode
system for buildings or structures having a concrete footing or foundation with not less
than 20 ft of surface area in direct contact with the earth. This requirement applies to
all buildings and structures with a foundation and/or footing having 20 ft or more of 1/
2 in. or greater electrically conductive reinforcing steel or 20 ft or more of bare copper
not smaller than 4 AWG. However, an exception does exempt existing buildings and
structures where access to the concrete-encased electrode would involve some type of
demolition or similar activity that would disturb the existing construction. Because the
installation of the footings and foundation is one of the first elements of a construction
project and in most cases has long been completed by the time the electric service is
installed, this revised text necessitates an awareness and coordinated effort on the part
of designers and the construction trades in making sure that the concrete-encased
electrode is incorporated into the grounding electrode system.".
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Sorry. We have both on our house, and for some reason I thought one or the other would have the same effect."Insanity is trying the same thing over and over and expecting different results" "Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds" A. Einstein
The a metallic water supply pipe is one of the best ground electrodes available.But the code reconizes that it may be replaced with plastic at sometime in the future. And by a plumber (or homeowner) and not by an electrican.Thus they require a secondary electrode when a water supply is used as a ground electrode.
.
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
lydensden,
Please consider an ICF house instead of a traditional stick built house. With your experiance it would be a natural. plus there are some real benefits that a stick built home will never have..
price wise locally contractors are building ICF's for the same cost as stick building and pocketing the added 2 to 8% premium.
Thermal efficency is far greater with an ICF house than with a stick built house.. cheaper to heat and cool.. safer as well, two hour fire rating and 200 MPH wind rating..
Easily meets all codes and planning requirements.
Then to add a little bit use timbers from a local sawmill instead of lumberyard wood.. savings potential is enormace.. in actaul cases over 90% savings with a superior strength..(and far more desirable)
Just for a quck example.. a solid hardwood timber such as oak, maple, or whatever that is 9inches wide 7 inches deep and 8 1/2 feet long is about $20.00 Put a few of them together and your home is suddenly a timberframe which makes it far more attractive.. Something that's really simple to do and I'm sure you can do an excellant job even without any previous experiance or skill..