Gentlemen,
After waiting several weeks for my doors, they’ve finally arrived. They’re prehung and I wondering if I should try to install them myself or a hire a contractor.
Four doors and one of them is 6-0 double door, which I’m sure will be more complex than the singles.
I’m willing to invest in a good level and I have a couple brad/finish nail guns and a helper. What’s the best tool to cut the jambs. Handsaw?
The openings will recently framed by a pro, so I think they’re pretty sqaure. This is in my basement, so the floor is concrete.
Could someone give me a rating on how hard this project might be? I’ll be buying both the Taunton books on door hanging if I decide to do it, but a contractor might be a good option too.
Thanks!
Patrick
Replies
Should be a DIY job if you are as carefull as you sound. I stand one in the rough opening first to see if the floor is level, if it isn't I use a tapered shim to raise the low side, make a mark on the shim at the edge of the jamb or casing, then remove the door and use the marked shim to tell me how much to cut of the long side of the jamb. I use a long back saw for this but any saw will do if you are careful.
I then make sure the hinge side of the rough opening is plumb, if it isn't I install shims where the hinges will be to make it plumb. I always like to install the hinge side tight to the stud so I can use longer screws in the hinges to really secure the door.
Reinstall the door, square and plumb it and shoot it.
Let's not confuse the issue with facts!
First off....if you plan to hire it out, hire a carpenter. A contractor is going to charge you for acting as the middle man. Although intended a bit tongue in cheek, somewhere along the way contractor and carpenter became synonymous....when in fact, they aint.
Just a couple quick points should you decide to do it yourself:
I'm assuming they're not hollow core doors if you had to wait on them. If so, I recomend against hanging doors with nail guns. Actually, I recomend against such even if the doors are hollow. Who says no-one, including yourself, won't swap them out for solid doors somewhere down the line? (I'm sure I'll take some grief for the above sentinment....but I believe it is that important.) Ten penny finish nails by hand.
I typically remove the door from the jamb when begining and nail the hinge side dead plumb and flush to wall surfaces. Then pop the door back on its hinges and use it to keep a constant reveal as you nail off latch side.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
I like to remove the door and set the hinge side nice and plumb, using either a long level or a plumb bob. Make sure the head is level; cut a jamb leg if needed.
I then reinstall the door, and shim the strike side to get an even margin all the way around.
Use at least a 16 ga., 2-1/2 " finish nail to nail the jambs. 15 ga. holds a little better, but I usually use the 16ga. myself.
Thanks for the info guys!
Maybe I will attempt this myself. It's good to know that I at least sound careful -my Great Dane tries to be careful but it doesn't always work out...
My floor is reasonably flat and this will be a good excuse to get a nice level. Should I get a 4' or 6' for this project?
I'm planning on spending the better part of the weekend getting these "squared" away. It seems like I should plan on nailing the hinge side first (before non-hinged side is nailed in and the door are installed). Is this correct?
JDRHI:
Your guess was correct, these are solid core 3 panel doors. I haven't decided about whether to hand nail or air. I've not had a problem removing brads/finish nails driven by air in the past. But maybe doors are different?
Shep: I'm curious to know you one would use a plumb bob for this project. could you tell me how you use it for hanging the doors? Better than a level?
Thanks for the help!
Patrick
Edited 3/9/2006 5:22 pm ET by Corrib
Edited 3/9/2006 5:23 pm ET by Corrib
Edited 3/9/2006 5:52 pm ET by Corrib
" It seems like I should plan on nailing the hinge side second (after non-hinged side is nailed in and the door are installed). Is this correct? "
No, it is NOT correct. Plumb, shim, and SCREW in the hinge side first. The hinge side carries the weight of the door and a solid core door is pretty heavy. In order to support it, take out at least one of the screws from the top hinge after taking the door off the hinge. Replace that screw with one of the same diameter but at least 2 1/2" long so the screw can go into the stud framing. I like to also do the same to the middle hinge as well. Since the bottom hinge is in compression you can skip this step there. Just a couple finishing nails is Ok.
After the hinge side is installed, put on the door and shim the latch side so you have a constant reveal top to bottom. Nail off with 2 1/2" finishing nails.
I also like to make sure there is shim material directly behind the top two hinges to insure that the screws going into the stud framing does not deflect the jam. In fact, being somewhat anal, I try to have shims directly behind all fasteners.
Chris
I have a Stabila 78" door level, and a Tajima Plumb-Rite plumb bob. Actually, I've got a full set of the Stabilas, but that's besides the point.
I usually use the level, but sometimes I use the bob when I'm feeling bored, or something. I know guys that only use a bob for setting doors.
The Tajima gets held to the top of the hinge jamb leg with the built-in pin. Pull out the plumb weight so it almost touches the floor. Then just measure the distance between the string and the jamb, and shim and nail so they're parallel.
The longer the level, the better. I used to use a 2' or 4' level, holding it against a straight edge to get the jambs plumb and straight. The 78" makes it much easier, since I no longer need 2 hands to hold the level/straightedge.
It's not rocket science. A little time and care, and you should be able to set the doors. Worse comes to worse, you get out a recip saw, cut the nails holding the jambto the framing, and start over.
I have only hung around 30 doors give or take a few, but here's my advice. First, leave the double door for a pro, they can be very ticky. I felt Chris had a lot of good advice too. I use the technique I read a few years ago in F.H. I use a 15 gauge nailer with 2 1/2" nails a 4' level, and a Shark (japanese saw) to cut the jambs because it cuts clean and flexes.
Start by checking the hinge side for plumb. Set the door in place (you can avoid having to cut the jambs by setting the door on scraps of finish flooring as you hang it.) I shim the door in place on both sides taking special care to put shims below each hinge and to get that side as plumb as possible. Don't forget to check that the door is flush with the sheetrock on both sides. Next, I drive a nail beneath, not through the shims on the hinge side. This holds the door in place and allows you to "dial it in plumb" by tapping the shims in our out as needed. When you get the door plumb drive nails through the shims, one on each side of the jamb. Later you can shim behind the top hinge and drive a 3" screw if it is necessary, it may be with solid doors, but not hollow cores. Close the door and look at the top reveal, you may have to trim a bit of the latch leg to make it even. (The reveal is the distance, basically shadow between the door and the jamb, you want it to be uniform.) Next, check the reveal along the latch side. Use a few shims along that side as needed to make it uniform, this side does not need to be level, it just has to look right.. Remember to nail through the shims.
I would start with an inconspicuous door first and work your way to more visible doors. It takes a few doors to learn good work from bad work. After a while you can hang a door in about twenty minutes.
Shep.
Why work so hard?
EZ D.
Haven't tried the foam. I'm kind of an old-fashioned guy; I don't like trying new things unless I'm pretty sure they'll work. But I have foamed basement windows in place, and doors shouldn't be much different.
I'm going to be calling you soon. I've got some money burning a hole in my pocket, and want to get the Repeaters.
I can't even talk about foam.
Bring some coffe.
YCF
I'm always interested to hear feedback on the various books. I glanced through the Katz book last night, but I haven't had a chance to the look at the McBride book. Since I don't know what I'm looking at, I'll trust the advice recieved here. Is the McBride book the one I should use for reference?All of the doors were specificied by my builder (hinge sides etc) and he framed the openings as well. So, I'm not too worried about that. I've considered having him do the doors as well, but I want to learn the process myself. However, the devil is in the details as they say and I know finish work is really what sets a quality job apart.Bill is right about my laundry room doors. I'm not a big fan of bifolds, so I went with the solid double door instead. I guess it functiions the same as a bifold.JDRHI: Thanks for the tip about the nails. These are solid core doors, pretty good quality, I think, as I purchased them at a lumberyard, instead of a big box. I also think I'm going to use screws on the hinge side and see how handy I am with a nailset on the latch side.As far as the screws, I'll use one or two in the middle and top hinges
Will I need shims for the hinge side? Also, should I plan on adding some nails to hinge side as well.Thanks for the good and interesting conversation. I especially enjoyed the suggestion of foam, but it's kinda scary. I used the expanding stuff once and I was NOT pleased with the result.Patrick
Edited 3/10/2006 10:38 am ET by Corrib
As far as the screws, I'll use one or two in the middle and top hinges Will I need shims for the hinge side?
I'll use screws on occasion.....usually through the hinge itself....but not until I've got the jamb dead on, exactly where I want it. (Usually, not until after casings are applied.)
As for shims....unless the R.O. is only marginally larger than the unit and has been framed perfectly square and plumb....yes...shim behind the hinges themselves.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
I don't like it the first time either.
My last construction job (Union County NJ) required to enlarge 200 openings and install handicap accessible doors.
Foam and only Foam.
Why take the door apart and try to put the door back again?
Learn from the "first time" mistakes and use them to work smarter. Don't give up on a simple idea because you don't know how to use the foam.
Some times this simple idea can be the best way.
YCf EZ Dino.
I don't sell foam. :)
Edited 3/10/2006 1:14 pm ET by dinothecarpenter
If you are going to foam, may I suggest:
Disposable latex gloves, you will use a lot of them.
Paint thinner to clean the stuff off your hands, tools, clothes, cat, etc. You will use a lot of this too.
Foam is a pita, but it's worth the trouble for the results. With practice it does get somewhat neater.
Foam is a pita, but it's worth the trouble for the results. With practice it does get somewhat neater.
Foam is pitta and nasty.
When and IF you learn how to use it without making a mess,
The results are unbelievable.
Edit.Line removed. ----------------------------------------
Same with VHS double sided tape.
Same with hot melt glue.
But all this methods need practice.
Out before...
YCf D.
Edit to remove one line that don't make any sence after few hours.
Edited 3/10/2006 8:08 pm ET by dinothecarpenter
I agree with JD on the screws and shims. Its VERY rare to find an opening that is true enough not to use shims behind the hinges; the hinges are real stress points. When you start, install a couple of shims and shoot a gun nail below them. It holds them tight enough to do your adjustments. When you're done, nail through the shims.
As for screws, WHY??? You're going to nail the casing to both the jamb and the stud; that's a lot of shear strength. If the door sags, a long screw in a hinge hole can help.
Another point, the pre-hungs I've hung lately (even "high end" products) have had very short hinge screws at both the door and jamb; replace them if necessary (at least a 1" or 1 1/4"). Also, the hinge mortises are often too deep or not deep enough. The door should not bind on the jamb when closed. If you shim the hinges for more clearance, use plastic laminate scraps, not cardboard.
Have fun with this, its not that hard!
Norse
There are several different foams available .You need the one for windows and doors that dont expand like the original Great stuff. That will bow anything if enclosed. Great Stuff does have a foam made for windows and doors. Fiberglass wont stop air infiltration like the proper foam.
I haven't decided about whether to hand nail or air. I've not had a problem removing brads/finish nails driven by air in the past.
It's not a matter of being able to remove the nails in the future. My point was that should you upgrade from a hollow door to a solid door down the line (which wouldn't require removing the jamb) nailing that might be sufficient for a lightweight door may not be sufficient for a heavier solid door.
I don't believe the pins shot from a finish gun are strong enough to hang doors with. I know there are probably far more guys hanging with pnuematics nowadays than by hand.....but I still prefer hand nailing. Doors take a beating, and even slight shifts in the jamb can greatly affect their performance.
It takes about twenty nails to hang a door. The time saved using a gun is not worth the sacrifice in strength.....in my ever so humble opinion.
Take it for what its worth.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
Do it yourself and you'll be doing yourself a favor by learning rather than just paying someone else to do it. You don't need more than one book, "The Doorhangers Handbook" by Gary Katz available through Taunton press. In my opinion, you should have already been reading this before you even ordered the doors. You should get at least two levels, one short for between the side jambs and one six footer to plumb things up. Read and reread Katz's book and you will get it sooner or later. If you want stuff to stay, and since it's your own home, I would recommend using screws rather than nail gun but thousands of doors are hung daily using just a nail gun so it's your choice.
You have some very good ideas already.
The ez way now. Use Foam.
Don't take the doors apart.
1. Screw 2 horizontal straps 1x3 on the opening.
2. Place door against the straps.
3. shim the bottom of the door.
4. Spray the foam.
5. In few hours you can use few nails, just in case.
Read the book by Gary to get the whole picture.
YCF Dino
Edit. Place 1/16" spacers between the door and the frame.
Practice with the foam before you use it. If not used properly,
you have a mess in your hands. Don't touch the foam. Use gloves.
Good luck.
Edited 3/9/2006 8:16 pm ET by dinothecarpenter
Foam, had a bad experience with foam. Installed an exterior door and wanted to insulate around the frame. I had some spray expandable foam and sprayed this around the door frame. When this dryed I couldn't open the door. I did leave the trim off to accommodate any foam expansion to prevent the jams from moving. I had to dig all the foam out to get the door to work properly. Will probably try and use fiber glass bats next time or use less foam.
Semper Fi
I know all about it. :)
Foam can be very tricky the first time.
But if you learn how to use it, you can install doors in few minutes.
YCF D.
Lots of good advice here, one other thing you can do is remove all the stop moldings first, after you have the hinge side shimmed and nailed, put a couple long screws positioned in the jamb so when the door stop is nailed back on they will cover them up. Also if you decide to run a long screw through one of the holes in the hinge, buy some 3" brass or anodized screws. I've seen so many guys use 1 black 3" drywall screw and it looks like crap. I always carry gold deck screws they match up nice with the brass hinge hardware screws. I get them at ACE hardware, HD usually doesn't have em'. By me anyway.................
Thanks for all the help!!!
Thanks for all the advice. After having a few after work beers, I picked up both the Gary Katz book and the Windows and Doors book from Taunton. So, it looks like I'll be doing some reading.
I figure I'll do all the single doors first and if things go well, I'll attempt the double door. The double door doesn't have an astragal and opens to my laundry closet. It latches with bullet catches. Does this change the installation?
If I take the time to make everything level and shimmed, every should go okay. Right? (Maybe easier said than done?)
On a related note, I have a door that needs to lose about 4 inches of length and have an air grate installed (for my furnace). What's the best to trim the door? I have a pretty big table saw and sliding jig, but I could use a circular saw too. For the air grate opening, I'm thinking jigsaw. Any thoughts on the right tool for the job?
Anyway, thanks again. One of these days, I'll post some pictures of my basement with everything finished. Everybody here has been a great help!! Thanks again!
Patrick
I would simply use the circ saw to cut the door. applying a strip of tape to eliminate tear out. I have several home made jigs I use for when I need perfectly straight cuts, but you can also clamp a straight edge ( ie level)
also if your door is hollow coor which I'm guessing it is you will most likely need to insert a new solid wood end strip as the existing one is probably only about 1 1/2" although I'm not sure how all this is affected by the grate that you mentioned.
Also as far as the levels that you mentioned. try to get yourself a 78" level. I've used the 4' level with and without straight edge up till recently. and getting Stabila's door jamb set is one of my recent favourite purchases. get a good level, make sure it reads true. alot of cheap levels ( and some not so cheap ) don't read true even right off the shelf. I 'm assuming you know how to check level for true, as many people don't.
Double full swinging doors for a laundry room? Usually you see bi-folds, or mainly single doors to such spaces.
For double interior doors, one of the doors is called the operating door, the other is a stationary door. You need to determine this before installing the lockset. The strike plate and mortise are on the stationary, the lockset is on the operating door. To ensure the stationary door is held in place, flush bolts are usually mortised into the top and bottom edge that engage in the head jamb and floor. This keeps the stationary door closed when the operating door is latched, otherwise you could pull the handle and both doors would open.
See this link as an example of the bolts. http://www.doorware.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=FBR&Category_Code=FB
As far as the astragal, they normally don't come with interior doors, though I install them after installation for some measure of privacy, and it gives the operating door a hard stop to seat against. I usually attach it with a dab of glue at the tops and bottoms, as the edge bolts are usually mortised in by now, and shooting nails will strike the bolts and make a mess of things. Shoot brads where the bolts aren't.
As far as attaching the door to the jambs and door stops, I normally remove the stock stop (I hate those staples) prior to installing the door and replace it with new molding nailed in to the door with about the thickness of a business card between the stop and door. When installing the door, I shoot screws thru the jambs where the stop will be and into shims. I prefer screws, as it gives a bit of forgiveness factor if you need to adjust the gap.
A longer level is more accurate. I always use a plumb bob to set the top and bottom shims and a level to set the middle. When the door is installed, I add shims to the top and bottom of the hinge side for added support.
When replacing a hinge screw and using a longer screw, don't use drywall screws; they might snap. And replace the screw closest to the middle of the door; the outer screws are too close to the edge and may only bite drywall.
Good luck.
"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." Invictus, by Henley.
"For double interior doors, one of the doors is called the operating door, the other is a stationary door. "Not necessarly.He said that they had buillet catches. Too independent doors.
The bullet catches are on the top of the door and just scrape the head jamb to keep them somewhat in place if there are no locking mechanisms (there's not even a recess for the catch to latch into.)
Traditionally, in order to latch a double door, one of them must be locked in place. Why have them if they are going to flop in the wind? The bullet catches are not quite useless, but will not prevent the door from opening if nudged against. Often I will remove them after installing bolt and locksets, as they tend to mar the finish of the head jamb over time, and IMHO aren't needed once the hardware is installed.
"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." Invictus, by Henley.
One thing I don't see in the other posts is dealing with cross sight or a twisted plane of the wall. You'll see this when the jamb is nailed flush to the drywall and the door closes flush with the top or bottom and sticks out or in at the opposite end.
I start by nailing the hinge side plumb and flush with the drywall but only enough to keep it in place (you may have to move it). No need to remove the door, just put a board on the floor about the same thickness as your bottom reveal and let it carry the weight while you work with the jamb. Shim and nail the strike side top and bottom and test for cross sight by closing the door. If its flush with the jamb top and bottom, finish shimming and nailing (gun nails are fine, put a little opposite angle to them instead of straight into the jamb). If its not flush, you'll have to start tapping the jamb in and out until it is flush. Do it on both jambs in opposite directions to minimize how much it sticks out or in at the drywall at one point. Most jambs are 1/16" wider than the drywall so you'll have little trouble with the casing.
Regarding the Katz book, get your money back! He gives some very bad track-rat advice. This is your house, not a tail-gate warranty.
Norse
Regarding the Katz book, get your money back! He gives some very bad track-rat advice. This is your house, not a tail-gate warranty.
WOW! I thought I was the only one who wasn't cray about Mr. Katzs' methods. While I've never read any of his books, some of the advice I've come across in various FHB articles by him just leave me shaking my head.
Didn't he write an article a few years back on hanging doors without shims?
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
I noticed you're hanging the doors in your basement and two things occurred to me. Number one is to make sure you're hanging the doors correctly so the door swings opens the proper direction. Typically the door swings open and into the room. I've walked through some houses recently where the door swing was wrong. One house had the main bathroom door opening into the hallway.The other thing is if you're finishing the basement yourself and you've placed the door rough openings improperly the room will have the feel of an amateur remodelor.Doors are typically positioned so they open against a wall (rather than in the middle of the room)..^^^^^^"and that's all I've got to say about that"
I remember that article.
I didn't think it was fine homebuilding then, and I haven't changed my mind since.
But I expect my work to last.
Lots of good advice here and I may have missed this suggestion but use screws on the door stop line while you're doing your adjusting. Drill clearance hole so the jamb doesn't jack from the screw, but moves in and out as you desire as you add and subtract shims.
Hope the hinge side is plumb so you can start there without shims. If that side goes well the rest will follow.