About to flash that chimney on the house in MS that I’ve been blathering about since Jan 09.
Dug out the mortar to a depth of 1 inch, as wide as the space between the bricks after removing old flashing.
Is there a caulk gun product that I can pump in behind the flashing that will hold as well as mortar? I don’t relish that job of mixing small qtys of mortar to fill kerf then having to keep it damp for several days while it cures. Temp will be in 90’s & it will be a PITA to cure stuff correctly.
Don
Don Reinhard
The Glass Masterworks
“If it scratches, I etch it!”
The Glass Masterworks
“If it scratches, I etch it!”
Replies
bump
The Glass Masterworks
"If it scratches, I etch it!"
bump again
The Glass Masterworks
"If it scratches, I etch it!"
Quick Help Question. See OP.
Don
The Glass Masterworks
"If it scratches, I etch it!"
I/we routinely use geocel clear for that. But I use a grinder and diamond wheel to cut the kerf for the counter. If you wallered it out too much, you may need to repoint it with mortar and either inserrt the flash in the wet or come back and kerf and caulk.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
View Image
Sphere: Already wallered it out as wide as the mortar joint - 5/8 inch by 1 inch deep. Used diamond stone cutting disk on Bosch worm drive mfg w/ lead frame & enough torque to drive a semi. My G-d was that thing heavy! Created enough dust that neighbors thought they had been teleported back to OKie Dust Bowl.
Realize, this flashing failed literally the day after installed about 7 yrs ago. Flashing too small, left gaps between counter flashing sections on slope because too small. Rain blew in between them first storm, lead to the rotted rafters & other roof structure I've been repairing since March.
Plan to have custom flashing sizes made by local sheet metal shop that does this sort of thing. Kind of committed to doing it the hard way - but what the Heck - been doing it that way all my life.
Varoom, in next post after yours, suggested way to do job w/ mortar, using admix instead of water in mortar mix. Sounds like a decent approach.
It's noon & just been up on roof for 30 min to measure for having flashing sections fabricated. Hotter than the vestibule to the 7th furnace of Heck up there. Looks like this job gets done at 0600 or after 1600. Thass OK - keep me off the streets & out of sleazy bars!
Thanks. I was afraid what you said would be the answer.
DonDon Reinhard
The Glass Masterworks
"If it scratches, I etch it!"
I'm guessin ya didn't have to remove all that mortar. I often just recut the existing a bit higer and deeper to get my "flags" or reglets in a new groove.
I take a scrap of copper and jellyroll it for a plug to hammer in and then caulk it up with the geocel.
Make the jelly roll tapered. Insert the pointy end and hammer it in, it forms a good plug then. Takes a bit of practice to SIZE the plug right, use the scrap to measue the depth of the kerf, and that is how wide you cut ( or a tad less) then the number of wraps depends on the width of the groove/kerf.
Rivet the bottom tips of the flags to the one under it, keeps them from flapping in the wind. Also cut the flange that goes into the kerf at a slight angle before installing, puckers less on the over lap.
I've not set in wet mortar so all I just said applies to installing in cured. Tho you may still need plugs to hold the flag in while you point.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
View Image
Sphere: Bail me out on a term here. What's a "Flag"? I'm assuming it's the exposed section of the step. All the rest made sense. I am having "Z" sections fabricated so I have a vertical section at the back of my kerf. Probably should run a masonry (Or is that Masonary, Piffin?) nail through the back of the Z in the base of the kerf to hold it in place while mortar cures.
BTW: you just 'splained to me what those small coils of sheet metal were that were in the old work.
I figure that I'll have to place each individual piece of counter flashing, mechanically hold in place w/ a couple small masonry nails at base of kerf, then point w/ mortar.
The step counters are 12 inches long w/ a 6 inch overlap to ensure that there are no gaps. Roof has a 22 ft run w/ 6 ft rise - about a 3/12 slope. Not very steep. To ensure that I get complete overlap, I've had to go two bricks high, or about 6 inches vertical on the steps.
Can't afford copper - going w/ heavy gage galvalum. When I asked about copper, they thought I wanted to buy a member of the local police force!
Thanks.
Don Don Reinhard
The Glass Masterworks
"If it scratches, I etch it!"
A flag or reglet is the counter flashing, not a step flashing. A triangle with a brick flange on the top, that gets stuck in the kerf.
The other two sides have a slight "kick" not a hem that stiffens the piece and springs it tight to the chimney and step flashing.2 brick on a 3/12 is common and galvalume will be fine. I dunno about the mas nails in the joint, but it may work OK. Bend your ZEE open to make it a spring in fit may hold it till the mud sets up. Still I'd rivet the bottoms.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
View Image
Sphere: Taken! Gotcha on the flags. I'm using step flashing, also, to run up the roof deck, atop the shingles. Will rivet the bottoms of the flags to the one below.
Glad that I stepped into the correct solution w/ the height of my flags by going higher than the originals. Appears that the last roofer just bought off the shelf stuff that wasn't high enough to give adequate overlap. They are also longer than what was on there. Last roofer didn't use step flaashing, but placed a single, long piece of base flashing between the shingles & felt. The outer edge of this piece was bent back almost flat, creating a thin channel that was supposed to direct the water down to the last shingle & then out onto the open roof.
I have taken Hazlett's advice & put a WR Grace adhesive membrane up the chimney behind the flashing & out onto the roof to catch anything that sneaks around the flashing. I could only find the membrane 8 inches & 36 inches wide, so I bought a roll of the 36 inch & stretched it about 28 inches out from the chimney, under the felt.
This is going to be one thick mother right at the chimney base when complete.
Thanks a humongous bunch.
Don Don Reinhard
The Glass Masterworks
"If it scratches, I etch it!"
Can't afford copper
Now that doesn't make any sense.
A 3' x 8' sheet of 16oz copper is right around $100 right now and in quantity, a 3' x 8' sheet of 26 ga galvanized can be had for around $10.
The time to fabricate the pieces you need is the same in galvanized or copper.
The time to install the pieces onto the chimney and roof is the same in galvanized or copper.
If the number and size of the pieces is small, a shop might have enough scrap laying around to make them without cutting up a new sheet. The biggest materials eater is new baby tins for the shingles... those add up fast.
So, in essence, the price difference between a "lifetime" job and a 20 year job is about $90. Like I said, it doesn't make any sense.
If you want a fast setting mortar, check out the Ready Mix products in the 10# cardboard boxes.
What is a baby tin ???
The pieces between the shingles along the object being flashed. I make them 5" x 4" and 9" long for asphalt shingles.
Might be another name for them, but that's what they are called here.
If I have a picture, I'll add it in a bit.
Here we refer to those as step flashing pieces .
Same size usually .
Ah.
Step flashing to me is the finished part over the "pieces".
Pretty neat that the same thing goes by different words in different parts of the country.
Does the copper oxidizing leave streaks on the roofing material over time? I've seen older masonary buildings with green streaks running down the cornice from flashing above. I agree it will last a lifetime,just seems like something that a homeowner might pick up on. If so,how long does it take for the oxidization to start ?
Copper goes from bright new to brown in a few weeks, then stays brown for over 20 yrs before that real green patina gets going.
Some green will wash down , but it takes a long time to create a stain.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
View Image
So if you have a light colored roof,would you see any streaks after it turned brown? I know that copper is a superior flashing material,it just seems like a situation where someone is trying to do the right thing by using it and all the homeowner cares about is the streaks on the roof.
I'm not trying to argue,I've just always used alum. or lead for flashing so I'm not familiar with copper. I've seen those stains on older masonary structures,but I cant say I recall seeing them on any wood frame,residential type buildings.
I've been on scores of roofs with copper flashing and have never seen a stain as result of the copper. More often than not I see the opposite, no alga or moss, mildew where copper wash is present.
Same as happens with lead, it too can "clean" a dirty , slimey roof and maybe that is what you have observed.
Now in salt air or other enviros that may be highly acid precipitation I guess anything could go wrong, and lead coated copper is preferred in some cases. But here in the Mid Atlantic or what ever Ky. is called, it's rare that anything attacks these metals.
Some higher end shingles have copper in them now, as preventative measure against ugly stains, so I tend to think that copper is about as safe as you can get.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
View Image
Interesting, thanks.
Looks like Sphere has the answer covered.... :)
Its like a sardine can with a key, but thats got a baby inside instead of fish.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
View Image
Sphere: Hey, I know what those are! I remember opening the little cans. What a slimy mess inside. We got 4 of 'em. Even permitted the babies to grow to adulthood. Difficult during the teen yrs. Sorely tempted on several occasions!
Our dog has had puppies on three occasions - got a bunch of 'em on those occasions, & usually in the middle of the night. As I recall, the stork pecked quietly on the door, dropped 'em on the stoop & flew away.
DonDon Reinhard
The Glass Masterworks
"If it scratches, I etch it!"
I got a BIG one at Xmas last year, and I got gypped, it had a HAM inside. No baby at all, unless it was spiral sliced..yuck.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
View Image
hijack alert: Hey sphere------ did you and grant do some work on the Gainsboro horse place( Rt. 60?--west of Lexington? just over by there on Thursday----- there is a lane that goes back from the highway to the woodford distillery( woodford, woodridge?)----anyhow-- that lane has to be about the prettyiest stretch of road i have seen from Maine to Sanfrancisco, From the Michigan U.P. to New Orleansthat be some pretty fine sipping wiskey too!---quite a relief,as we didn't know Berea was dry, LOL
stephen
I personally don't recall being on Gainsboro, but did do some 70 sq. on Gainsway farm all standing seam. Mr. Gains was the Gainsburger dog food kingpin, and horses and dog food, well, you get the connection.
It's all good country out around there, we did a good size slate job near that distillery.
I didn't know Berea was dry, my part of the same county is, unless you are in Richmond "city" limits. Short hop up the road woulda got ya anything ya wanted to drink.
IIRC most of the counties south of here are dry and few that border to the west and far northeast and east..LOL So IOW here and Fayette (Lexington) are wet counties.
Hope ya hd a good trip, we shoulda grabbed a coffee tho'.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
View Image
did you and grant do some work on the Gainsboro horse place
I was just talking about Gainesborough at the Fest today. I've worked on the main house several times. Gainesway is the roof we've posted threads about, however.http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
Glad YOU asked that question! I was thinking he was talking about what I call "Tin Caps." The 1 1/2 dia disks that we used to use to nail down the felt. I got to do several thousand of them on our house back in 1950 in Miami, FLA as a teenager. Criteria given me was that they should be the length of a hammer head apart in all directions. guess my Dad didn't want the felt to come off in a hurricane!
DonDon Reinhard
The Glass Masterworks
"If it scratches, I etch it!"
If you have some handy, use a mortar admix with the cement instead of water. It will give it some flex. Mix it with a paddle in a bucket, as you would thinset. Use a small trowel and a striking tool to fill and you are good to go. Lean something up against the chimney to keep it in the shade while it sets. Or do the job in the late afternoon so it can set overnite. Why would you want to keep it wet for days - it's just a mortar joint.
I used an admix for a new crown on my 3 flue chimney. So far so good after a month.
Varoom: Just came home from the home of the pot, looked for admixtures for doing the mortar for my chimney.
All they had was a polymer mixture that said not to use w/ mortar cement - exactly what i have a bag of! Also, if there's no water in the admixture, how does the mortar set? that takes water for the reaction.
DonDon Reinhard
The Glass Masterworks
"If it scratches, I etch it!"
I think in with the sakrete products they have a "bond and cure" in one gallon bottles , along side is Masonry sealer. I'd get BOTH and while you are mixing mud and pointing , (use the bond and cure WITH water) go head and seal the chimney while yer at it.Get a cheap (12 bucks) 1 gal. deck and garden sprayer for applying the sealer. If you don't have one handy.Wet the joint space with the bonding stuff or water before you start pointing, else it dries before it sticks.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
View Image
Getting back into this discussion late, but fwiw, I used the admix full strength replacing water in the mortar mix. What I used allowed for use with portland, but it did say to go 1/2 with water. Still, it's to be used full strength with thinset and it worked fine with portland mortar full strength (although we'll see how the chimney crown survives the coming winter):
http://www.custombuildingproducts.com/ProductCatalog/SettingMaterials/DrySet/AcrylicMortarAmix.aspx?user=arc&lang=en
This stuff is available at my local Despot and is what I've use with unmodified thinset when doing my bathroom tiling. It's a great product, never had any problems with it.
Don ,
Try Sika Flex polyurethane in a limestone color . It matches the color of cured mortar quite well .
You'll need to make sure your counterflashing is held in place well , so that the caulk is just filling the void .
I also use it to seal lead counters to the underlying piece , to keep wind from working it loose .