I am about to get a bid for finishing about 450 square feet of white pine floor in one irregularly shaped room. About half is 10 years old, with poly finish, very scratched. The other half is newly installed. I am not worried about matching the color of the new with the existing.
I am in Mid-coast Maine. Can anyone give me a ball park number for what I should expect to pay for sanding and finishing with shellac?
Thanks.
Replies
I'll bid $50,000 plus expenses.
$40K if using poly.
Are you sure that's enought Pete?
per sq. ft.?
That's not enuff? Even with expenses tossed in?
See I missed that sq. ft. part<G>
I will be happy to sub the work from you at half the price<G>
We gots a deal!
Can I bring piffin in as a consultant and consider him an "expense?"
Why not, now get that contract and deposit!!
No idea about the shellac. Floor refinishing around me is typically $1.40 a square foot for 1 coat sealer, and 2 coats poly.
You won't get a better value than to call Mike Richard at American Wood Flooring.
207-352-3440
cell 446-0725 ( not sure if that is current or not)
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Thanks, but my contractor has someone he uses. I just want to get a ballpark figure, so if the proposal ends up way too high, I can go to plan B, which may involve DIY.
Prices range from $2.50/sq ft up to six bucks depending on size, conditions, whether staining or just pure clear poly, etc.
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Hey, we waz gonna cut you in on the scam...
LOL, What can I say - he's a neighbor, kindasorta
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smslaw
If you are considering doing it yourself this can be an extremely easy job for you.
The first step is to remove the old finish..
Please don't rent a drum sander. Way too easy to make a mistake. Plus it really requires skill to operate to get a nice finish..
Instead use those new square pad sanders, I think they are about 20 inches by 24 inches.. While you are there get several of the most coarse grit (24 grit) sheets of sandpaper. Plus one each of every grit they have available.. (more information later) . Those square pad sanders make it pretty easy to not make a mistake. Your hardest task will be to lug them from the car into the room you plan on sanding (and back to the car when finished!) (actually that seems worst) If you haven't done it before definately ask someone, your wife or a strong kid to help you lug them in and out.
I get by with a simple 3M dust mask because they don't seem to blow as much dust around as those drum sanders did. Start with the coarest grit and remove about 95% of the old finish. then swictch to the next grit and get the last 5%. Switch to the next grit and do the whole floor. and work your way done grit by grit.. if you skip a grit it actually takes longer, plus there is a real chance of leaving sanding marks.
One thing you will notice is that it goes really fast once you get all the old finish off.. So don't think that you'll need to labor as hard each grit. All you are doing is removing the sanding scratches left by the previous grit.
Switching grits is real simple too. The back of the paper has sand in it and all you do is tilt the machine off the old and onto the new, nothing to attach or connect. It works kind of like velcro.
You'll also notice that the paper comes off still looking good.. go ahead and keep them for the next time you do a room. I really only have worn out the coarest grit paper.
Finish up with the buffing screen. I really burnish the wood and that helps it develop a really deep shine.. Nowgo ahead and return the sander.. that will let all the dust settle and then Take your shop vac and vacumm every thing up. Then I wipe off the residue left with a rag. that dust won't do anything for you get rid of it..
I think I've explained how simple it is to shellac so I won't go into that unless you'd like me to.
with rent and paper etc. you should be able to finish your whole floor for around $125 to $150 bucks..That's under 35cents a sq.ft.
Thanks for the tutorial, Frenchy. I don't really have the time, but I may end up doing it anyway if the price is too high.
The four disk random orbit sanders go faster than the square pad sanders, but do require an edger.
Bryan Sayer.
I haven't tried them. They have one at the rental house but I've always selected the square pad one to finish my floors. Guess I'm just as guilty as some of those I've accused of being closed minded..
Please tell me more. Do you save enough time with them to make up for having to go back and edge everything? How are they on really rough floors?
The stupid jerk that makes my floors for me (me) sometimes runs some boards thru the planner for an extra pass and then I have to sit there with a sander and fix his mistake.
If he didn't work so darn cheap (or I was rich) I'd fire his butt in a nano second..
Frenchy Bryan is right on with the four pad I am a convert and I own a square pad, passed up some great deals on drums sanders too Home depot sells them off at 1/4 to one third the price. I can get a clark drum for 600 right now. But I want a four pad. The paper cost more and you go through the 24 & 36 grit fast, about 6.00 a set. If you have a flat floor you can get the edges with it, in older houses the flooring tends to roll a bit on out at walls. I just use my 5" random orbit for the rough sanding the edge then go over it with the four pad.One thing to watch for is squigles you get a bit of junk (rock, nail head) under the pad and you get loop d loops in the floor. Wallyo
wallyo
Thanks for the update. Your're right, I could just use my DA as an edger. Hadn't considered that.. Will it flatten a floor like the square pad ones do?
Frenchy When you ask will it flatten the floor are you referring to the four disk? If so yes it does quicker then a square pad but not as fast as a drum. But as with anything there are trade offs a drum is faster but you have the risk of scoop marks and chatter marks. Four disk is slower but no chatter or scoop marks. In fact the floor I just did was full of scoop marks from the original sanding once I finished with the four disk they were gone. This sander is great for inlay, parquet, and herring bone.I am waiting for HD to get rid of one for 600-800.http://www.cherryhillmfg.com/Wallyo
wallyo
Thanks for that information. I'll use it on my next floor. That's one of the really neat parts of this site. Those with information share it with others. Then we're all free to accept or reject whatever information is givin here.
I find it extremely ironic that some adhearants to one way seem to attack those who choose alternatives..
Everything from attacking nieve newbies who come on this site to simply ask what should this cost. How should this be fastened, To what type of tools or equipment to select. Or most recently what should a person finish his floors with.
Instead of simply allowing a person to express an honestly held opinion either political or dealing with construction they attack personally.
Recently Piffin is off on one of his usual tirades and has claimed I'm a lying wacko..
All because I prefer one finish over another.. He did the same to some person who believed in using screws instead of nails. Resulting in a new word for sheetrock screws.. Piffin screws.
Isn't it amasing that a person who claims to be a professional has so much time to devote to attacking other people? He by far away has the most posts of anyone on this site. yet somehow he manages to get a full days work in?
I'm unemployed and working on my house part time and yet he regularly posts far more than I could ever achieve..
Frenchy, I talked to someone recently about flooring and they said the "in" thing is hard wood flooring with a "distressed" look.In other words they are steering away from a floor with a perfect finish.They are even making laminate flooring which looks old and scratched and distressed.
mrfixitusa
Well then several finishes should work well for that. I'm really amazed at how well my shellaced floors have held up considering the dog and other abuse I've given it. I was looking at it last night and the dust was really thick in places plus I'd let a plant grow pretty wild and hadn't watered it as regularly as I should that resulted in a ton of leaves on it as well.
Another words the place looked like a mess. I swept up the leaves and some of the dust, took off my T shirt and wiped the dust clean (It was still sticky from sweat so it helped in wiping up the dirt) and got down and really looked closely
still in great shape!
Yes there was a scratch here and there but when I'm done tramping all over up there I'll simply wipe it all with a rag soaked in denatured alcohol and any scratches will disappear.
Piffin got one part right. Shellac is really easy to do and as he said darn near idiot proof..
Too bad he feels he must personally attack anyone who disagrees with him..
"He did the same to some person who believed in using screws instead of nails. Resulting in a new word for sheetrock screws.. Piffin screws. "There you go making things up again.The humour of the term piffinscrews comes from the fact that some fools try to use sheetrock screws for structural uses such as hanging cabinets.
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smslaw
My wood floor guy gave me a price last fall of $2.50/SF to sand and 3 coats of poly.
I think that is too cheap. I would think at least $3 for what he wanted to do.
Rich
don't know shellac
but i'd guess $2/foot
From the Zinsser Technical Data Bulletin:
http://zinssercompanyinc.com/pdf/TDB/be_shllac.pdf
Floors – Floors should be properly sanded and free of dust,
dirt, or other contaminants. Use a brush or floor finish
applicator and apply in the direction of the grain. Coat two or
three board widths at a time, being sure to keep a wet edge.
Avoid over-applying or over-brushing. Let dry for 1 hour before
sanding with 220 or finer sandpaper or screening. Apply
second coat and let dry 2 to 3 hours. Note that shellac is not
as durable or scratch-resistant as polyurethane or other
finishes formulated for application to floor surfaces.
peteschlagor,
I love people with no experiance looking up something on the internet and assuming it's gospel.
I have actual experiance doing just this. My floor is extremely tough.., I know that where my dog 150# lays and runs back and forth jumping up and down with his untrimmed claws wouldn't stand up to polyurethane but has been totally mark free with shellac..
I also know that I didn't follow a single one of the instructions they give. In that I was sanding after 15 minutes not an hour, I flooded it on or should I say I mopped it on with no attention paid to direction. Some of my boards are over 12 inches wide so I wasn't able to get two or three boards at a time etc..
As for durable, someone else wrote here earlier about getting off a 80 year old shellaced floor. I've personally seen 50+ year old shellaced floors come back to life with a cleaning and a fresh coat of shellac..
I've posted pictures of my floor so those sceptics can check it out for themselves.
Are you serious?
You're telling me that you know more than the manufacturer?
No wonder....
peteschlagor,
Again with no personal experiance you are talking about something you have no personal knowledge of.
Why not try it yourself? Several others here have and are happy with the results..
Craftsmen have been using shellac almost forever to bring out the maximum beauty of wood.. all the wonder finishes tend to look cheap and plasticy compared to shellac. that's why some have created "satin" finishes. In a vain attempt to keep wonder finishes from looking as cheap and plasticy as they really are..
Shellac was the standard for floor finishes prior to all the post WW2 creation of wonder finishes. The problem is each wonder finish lacks some of the unique nature of shellac..
I really don't recommend that you eat any of the wonderfinishes but you've been eating shellac all of your life on candy and pills.. None of the wonder finishes occur natually as does shellac. None are biodegradable and all of them need to be sanded to repair.
Take some nasty gouge and scratch whatever wonder finish you want. Then try to do an invisable repair.To do so will require sanding and all the dust and mess that creates.
Gouge shellac and all you need to do is reapply some shellac to the scratch.. the new shellac will melt together with the old shellac and perform an invisable repair.
Spill some of that wonder finish on your clothes and they are ruined. Spill some shellac on your clothes and you'll have to wash them..
Finally take some shellac, apply to your floor as I've recommended, let dry 30 days.. at the same time apply whatever wonder floor finish you want to another portion of your floor and and do the same.
Now walk on each, scuff each, and in general abuse floors like you'd expect them to be abused..
When you've done that write back and tell me shellac isn't a great finish..
may i have some more , sir ?Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I have used shellac. I'm well aware of it's abilities and shortcomings. It's a fine product - in the right situation. And it has its limitations. That's why I challenge your statements.
If it was as good as you say, there would have been no need for Zinsser and others to say what they do.
THEY obviously have significantly more experience and scientific knowledge upon to base their judgements. Thousands of years of experience and legions of scientists. Not just ONE situation.
When you hold to such unconsciousably silly statements as you do, you discredit yourself. No one else need apply.
He needs to have the 'Sward hardness" scale in his face to see the shortcomings of Shellac in comp. to Poly and Waterbased finishes. I don't have a link handy, but I recall in my days of working in WB finish tech. there are MANY products a lot more suitable for a long lasting , durable finish.
I DON't CARE if the finish is easy and easier to repair, I don't want to have to move the PIANO and risk IT, to fix a scratch..you get the analogy, I assume.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
You gonna play that thing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32Ln-SpJsy0
Sphere,
My piano didn't scratch my shellaced floor when I moved it in place. Send anyone you want or stop by yourself to verify that..
Nope, I'm not here to argue. You are sold and that's that. Fine by me.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
You gonna play that thing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32Ln-SpJsy0
Thanks for everyone's input. I really didn't intend to open the usual debate, although it is, as always, entertaining.
I chose shellac because the existing part of the floor has poly on it and didn't wear well at all. I have put shellac on another floor and it has held up quite well. The other advantage is avoiding stinking up the house with regular poly. I have used water-based poly and have been very unhappy with it.
sms.... never have used shellac and wouldn't recommend it to my customers
we have used lot's of different oil-based poly's , all performed well
with the advent of the no-volatiles and low-volatiles, the water based polys are gaining in popularity
there are different specs for the water-based, and obviously , the better ones perform better
the ones my floor finisher has used ( because i was willing to pay for them ) are performing and wearing as well or better than the oil-based
the sheen level also affects the wear characteristics.. there are lots of things that affect performance... one important one is a lack of build-up
if the finisher skimps on the number of coats, the wearability goes down fastMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike
Please try to be objective about what you just wrote.
I have never used shellac.........
We have used poly's and all have performed well........
OK let's not belabor the obvious...
Now let's look at some of the issues I've brought up.. has anybody objected to the plastic look of poly's and requested satin finish?
Take some regular poly and scuff it with fine sandpaper and you have a satin look don't you? So what they are really saying is that glossy shiny plastic look makes the wood appear cheap..
You won't find fine antiques finished in poly, the reason is obvious isn't it? (aside from the fact that it isn't original) simply poly's don't bring out the full beauty of wood.
Take a moment to consider the real beauty of a floor done with shellac. Sell it to your customers as an upgrade. Upscale customers want that sort of thing.. they don't walk on plastic soled shoes because leather is superior.. but leather is more expensive and wears out faster doesn't it? Large limo's and luxury cars don't get as good of gas mileage as small economy cars and etc..
Upscale customers want things other than the common and ordinary. Consider shellac as just that. If you have a customer with more money than he knows what to do with sell him shellac and offer to have it French polished.. Now someone will be on their hands and knees forever but the finish will be superior to anything else with a richness and depth no other finish is capable of. (Or you can short cut the process by color sanding and polishing the final wax coat).. true connoiseur's can tell the difference but I have to compare them side by side to see it myself..
gimme a break... u build one freakin house and you're the expert ????
just like your opinions about insulation..
you should stick to what you do best , selling equipment
look.... don't you think if shellac were the best floor finish, everyone who wants happy customers would be using it ??????
you always seem to go from the personal experience to the universal cure-allMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
MikeSmith.
You yourself admit that you have never done a shellaced floor so my one floor is 100% more experiance than you have..
frenchy.... i've been doing this since 1973 full time... every house i've ever worked on had some hardwood floor
i've seen them all..... i've seen them from one day old to 100 years old
my customers need durability.. they get their best money's worth from the cross -linked water base polys
how many people pay you for their floors ?
lots of wood floor finishers like shellac... but it's not a high abuse level product
so , you keep using your shellac... and i'll keep recommending cross-linked water base.... until the next field proven product knocks it off its perch
Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 7/26/2008 8:33 pm ET by MikeSmith
Mike
By your own admission you admit you've never done a shellaced floor yet you assure me with absolute confidence that poly's are better.. Don't you see the fault in your arguement?
I'll be honest, I've done my share of poly floors. Mostly my own but several for friends and family.. I've always objected to that plastic look and was disappointed with how short the floors remained looking good.
When I first tried shellaced floors I didn't expect much because I've heard all those myths and the advertizing hype. I was shocked at how wonderful shellac alone made my wood just come alive (the currant slang is to make the wood "pop") That encouraged me to put on more than the first coat.
If you read Fine home building #184 Jan 2007 the third step they recommend is a first coat of shellac. Followed by two coats of gloss poly and a final coat of satin poly (to give that hand rubbed look)
You all speak about the durability and value of poly yet no one has bothered to try an actual comparison. I have and I was shocked. Poly by now would be torn up from my dog yet the shellac is great! I stomp all over it wearing the shoes I use to build this house and it's in fine shape
Try that Mike,, get a 150# dog with long claws and have him run around on your poly floors. Stomp around in your work shoes, drag a piano across it and in general abuse it for over three years and report back to me how that poly is holding up..
If you've used something and you're happy with it you'll never know if something is better unless you try it..
That's fine but don't go telling someone with actual experiance that it's not a durable finish.. You simply have nothing to compare it with..
Frenchy, I showed an above-average home a couple of weeks ago.It was a 250,0000 home which is a nice home here in wichitaThe home was 10 years old and had maple floors with natural color and I don't know what kind of finish it had the hallway had a lot of scratchesI don't know what had damaged the floorOr maybe they moved the furniture a lotBut it definitely affected the showingsPeople should use floor protectors when they are moving furniturehttp://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/B0007IQEQ4/ref=dp_image_text_0?ie=UTF8&n=284507&s=kitchen
mrfixitusa
I agree it's relatively simple to protect a floors finish when moving stuff and a person should take those steps..
If that floor finish had been shellac however once all the moving was done you could simply mop on another coat of shellac and the new would melt the old finish and leave no trace of those scratches.
Poly's on the other hand require sanding to completely eliminate the scratches plus the stink will linger for a long period of time..
did i mention it's good to have you back ?Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,
I enjoy these debates and discussions. I clearly understand that I am going to be outside the norm here and honestly think I have something to contribute.
At a bare minimum I should get people thinking... I think that's a good thing..
You did ask him if you could have more of the same, LOL
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One problem sms will have regardless of type finish is that his is a white pine floor, about the softest flooring he can get. We use a fair amt of it up here because it is tradition I guess, not because it is good flooring. For a traditional floor, shellac on white pine will do fine for someone who wants a rustic lived in look on the floors.The biggest problem is that most finishes are harder than the wood itself, so that it takes very little for weight to dent the wood which flexes the finish and lets it chip off at the edge of the damage.for white pine I like the waterlox so it can seep into the wood and harden it as it cures. It is also easier to repair than poly
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For a traditional floor, shellac on white pine will do fine for someone who wants a rustic lived in look on the floors.
That's pretty much what I'm after. The part of the house in question was built around 1780 or so.
for white pine I like the waterlox.
I used Waterlox on the cherry cabinets I built for our new kitchen, as well as for some tables. I like it a lot.
I sanded a piece of the floor in question and applied Waterlox to one part and shellac to another. They both look fine, but we prefer the slight color given by the clear shellac over the colorless Waterlox.
Thanks for the advice.
Enjoy!
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I would still consider this a little more. What brand of poly was used? In ten years the products have changed quite a bit. Companies like Bona and other professional floor finish manufacturers produce floor finishes for Gymnasiums, and I doubt you will have a heard of 30kids running around with balls or hockey sticks in your house as frequently as in a school. As to scratch resistance, I doubt many will openly admit that any of the products offer much greater resistance. I know when I ordered the Bona traffic for my floor, the salesman pretty much admitted most products are somewhat equal in that department. Pretty tough to defend wood from a knife or 300lb piece of furniture with a 30ml (guess) film that still allows you to see the beauty of the wood. Now wear resistance, thats a diff story. Personally, I believe the resistance of the finish is related to two factors, surface hardness and thickness. No question shellac is easy to repair, but take some sample boards finish with a couple different products and then take a knife to the samples to test the finish thickness and hardness.
The new polys will not stink up the house. Companies are constantly improving the VOC of their products. I could have slept in my room the same night if the finish would have allowed.
Good luck.
Brad
smslaw.
The debate about shellac is wierd. Normally there is such a debate about a new unproven product replacing a well proven and tried standby.. This however isn't that sort of debate.. Modern plastic finishes have been heavily advertized as replacements for the old standard of shellac..
So many people have bought into that idea that it's considered"common Knowledge" they've bought into it without any actual comparisons. They just assume that all floors have to be sanded creating a lot of dust everytime they are freshened up. That stink and oder for prolonged periods are required and the use of nasty chemicals are the only possible solution..
Plastic looking finish is desired somehow and those with a degree of sophistication choose the satin look rather than accepting that cheap plastic look.
Real connoiseurs know and appreciate such differances and simply haven't been offered shellac because it was last in common usage back prior to WW2.
I can't tell you how many times I've debunked myths about shellac.. All repeated as absolute gospel. Even Mike Smith just wrote I've never used Shellac,.... and went on to comment about his success with poly.
Talk about thinking like a lemming..
"Real connoiseurs know and appreciate such differances and simply haven't been offered shellac because it was last in common usage back prior to WW2. "Don't forget that is because better products came along.
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Piffin
Better products? Or better marketing?
Someone DOES need to go over there to show him the faults that he obviously cannot see.
"In this litigious society," someone is going to sue HIM for false claims.
You did poke the bear and got off fairly lightly.
Hey, this ignore feature is neat.
The "annoying author" gets this goofy symbol next to his name and you don't have to read the gibberish he writes.
I strongly suggest it.
Like Bill Hartmann says, it saves on the blood pressure.
`
That works fine for goofballs in the Tavern who specialize in political stuff and stay out of the general discussions, but for this forum to have value for those seeking info and advice, peers have to challenge bunk and posers.'sides, watching frenchy type is more phun than ping-pong
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What's your experience with using a Danish oil on wood floors?
None that I know of except that my understanding of Danish oil is that it is similar to the Waterlox - multiple coats rubbed in and well cured. Some shadow of memory is telling me that danish rubbing oil when properly done employs the friction of rubbing heat to help cure it harder, but that it is mostly for furniture, not floors.Now, lest I become too much like frenchy and tell you more than I know, I will say no more about Danish oil
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I've had great luck with danish oil on cherry cabinets, followed by several coats of shellac for depth, the amber tint, and as a sealer for the the water borne lacquer top coats. Gorgeous finish. Being able to spray the top coats is what gave the flawless appearance. But obviously, I would never use that formula to walk on.
As I understand, the oil soaks into the wood, thus giving a deeper finish.
I've had houses that the wood floors were prefinished oil finishes. Took a bit of a learning curve to properly care for them. So they didn't last long before being replaced. But I don't know what type of oil was used.
That sounds like Watco oil? for the cabs.I have used it a lot as a finishing stain product. I like it for depth of finish.
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I used Watco oil on the oak floor of a restaurant. It holds up well with the exception of wax from the candles they put on the tables at night. The wax sinks right into it and is murder to get out without discolouring the floor.
rub it in and call it patina, LOL
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Piffin
For someone who isn't going to tell more than you know you sure have a lot to say about it..
The problem with a term like Danish Oil it is what ever the manufacture wants it to be.But from Flexner's "Understanding Wood Finishes" in the oil finish section he listwiping varnish Cures fairly fast to a glossy sheen unless it has been made satin or flat bye the addtion of flatting agents. Can be built up to any thickness you want by leaving each coast wet on the surface.It is basically a varnish that has been thinned.It then has pictures of some products and they include;
Waterlox, Zar Wipe Oil Clear wood finish, McClausky's Tungseal Tung Oil Varish, Hope's Tung Oil Varish, Formby's Tungoil Finish.And Oil/Varnish (thinner) blends. There are a number of homemade receipes for these.'Varies somewhat in curing ttime and gloss depedning on the oil-to-varnish ration . Cures more slowy than varnish to a satin sheen. Shouldn't be built up because the oil in the finish cazuses the finish to cure too soft.Products include -
Watco Danish Oil Finish, Miniwax Antiuie Oil Finish, Minwax Tung Oil Finishd, Deft Danish OIl Finish, (Can read the brand name) Norid Oil finish, Benny Moore Scandananelian Oil Finish..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
I'm always a bit confused by the term, "varnish."
It seems like a broad category. Kinda like "stocks."
Is it correct to assume lacquers are "bonds," shellac as "cash equilivants," and something else like, "deriviatives?"
If so, how are varnishes subdivided? Have we Preferred varnishes, common varnishes, and/or convertible varnishes? Does poly fall under varnishes?
First there are water based "lacqures" and "varnishes". They they only use the same names, but are much different types of products.In the solvent based.Lacquers are is a finish that is desolved in lacquer thinner.And shellac is bug poo that is desolved in ahcolo. Both dry and not cure. And can be redesolved with the solvent.Varnish are "resins" that are cooked with a "oil". Many different types of resins and oils.While they may flash off from evaporating solvents they cure by reacting with O2 to form long polymer chains.And once cured they can be redisolved..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
I think understanding the chemistry of the various products is keyu to applying them right for a good job.Since most of the oil product cure by a reaction with oxygen it is essential to let the O2 get to it. It is when it gets layered up before one coat dries and another is slapped on top that the covered up coat never does get to cure completely. That is probably when people see polyurethene jobs that are too soft. I've seen poly that you could dig a thumbnail into after a year and I've seen it that was as hard as glass to my subjective judgement.In either case, the oil resins become a part of the final product. They are slow to cure but when that gives time to penetrate the wood and harden it while curing off, that is a good thing.With the newer water based products, the catalyst is different in the way it works, but my understanding is that it is harder generally. I don't know if that is in the chemistry of if because it kicks to fit the scedule most people have in mind, not wanting to wait for fast cure. I love the look of the oil much better than the plastic look of the water based poly.Like shellac because it is so easy to use - the alcohol carrier being volatile and evaporating so fast - as a sealer, but I have never thought that it looked all that great, even with multiple coats plied on.
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Piffin
For once you say something that is opinion and Not as fact.
You say that you don't like the looks of shellac..
Fair enough!
I've admired shellac as a finish as long as I've been able to appreciate the differance. I suppose something around 30 plus years..
If I ever saw a fine piece of furniture with Polyurethane on it I might appreciate it more.. I haven' t. Nor is anything of real quality done with plastic polyurethanes..
Laquer has the ability to produce a fine finish as well however It is delicate and not able to withstand the abuse of walking on..
Those who have been to my house and seen my large dog run and jump around can appreciate how well the floor has held up. Please tell me what experiance you've had with polyurethanes, wood floors, and large dogs..
OK you don't like the look of shellac, I do. You are entitled to your opinion.
peteschlagor,
Please come over here and show me some of those shortcomings.. Or try it my way and then speak with some real knowledge..
peteschlagor,
It is an extremley litigous society, Mc Donalds has to warn that the coffee they serve is hot. Ford Motor company has to pay for advertizing to tell people to check their tire pressures..
I don't wonder that Zinssers puts cautions and notices about it's products..
As for your claim that I have been the only person to ever consider using shellac on a floor that is simply not correct..
Prior to WW2 most clear floor finishes were shellac. It gradually fell out of favor as millions of dollars was spent advertizing some chemical wonder replacement which as I've pointed out falls short of shellacs natural ability..
You speak about unconsiousably silly statements and you go right on making them. Insisting that only plastic (oops polyurethane) is suitable for flooring, walls, and trim.
I've repeatedly pointed out the advantages of shellac. I've posted pictures, others have reported their success as well.
I understand when you are doing something differant there will be plenty of critics who tell you it can't be done.. I'm used to that. Too bad your herd mentality won't allow you to expand your horizons..
"Again with no personal experiance you are talking about something you have no personal knowledge of. "Wasn't pete talking - it was the manufacturer he was quoting. They have far more experience than you do.I do have experience with shellac. It is good for what it is good for, but I never imagine it coming close to being as good as poly for floors. True it can be easy to fix, but that is good, since it needs more fixing more often.
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Piffin
Have you used shellac on floors? Not as a sub coat but as a finish coat?
"I love people with no experiance looking up something on the internet and assuming it's gospel."well, since you are on the internet, we know better than to take your word as gospel then.;)Did you happen to notice that what pete quoted was from the manufacturers of the shellac product? Don't you think they ought to know better than a DIY equipment salesman whether their product is harder than poly or not?
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Piffin
It's like a fan telling a proteam how to play.
So far nobody with anyexperaince doing a shellaced floor has come on and told me I'm wrong.. It's all been users of the other floor finish.
While that sort of loyalty is admirable it isn't real experaince is it?
"nobody with anyexperaince doing a shellaced floor has come on and told me I'm wrong."You just forgot how to read and comprehendOr you are trying to be ignorant and ignore the fact that I just told you that I have used Shellac and know from experience that it is not as hard as cured poly
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Piffin
Many have used shellac In fact Issue 184 Jan 2007 talks about using shellac (the one with the article about wood floor finishing secrets) however they use it as an under coat.
Your statement didn't say that you've used it as the sole finish of a floor. Now you accuse me of not being able to read? I'm sorry you need to be clear and complete when you make a statement.
You also failed to answer my question. How many large excited dogs with long untrimmed claws have ruined poly floors? Why hasn't mine put any marks on mine?
Can you roll a piano across your poly floors without marks? Do you tromp all over your poly floors in your work shoes and not leave marks? Want to explain to me once again how delicate shellac is?
I think the reason you have good luck is that you have it on that black walnut flooring.Most of our wood floors here are pine or maple or birch. I wouldn't be insane enough to roll a piano over them with ANY finish so that is no way of setting forth a test.Yes, I see dog scratches in BOTH poly and shellac floors.
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Piffin
I certainly can see the weakness of Pine but maple is harder than black walnut as is oak. I don't know about birch off hand but I suspect it's harder too than black walnut.
I've posted pictures of the dent my dogs claws made jumping around on the black walnut 86666.13 I think. However look closely and the shellac isn't scratched at all..
The closer I look the more scratches I see.http://forums.taunton.com/n/docs/docDownload.aspx?guid=2B1B69CC-01A5-4ADA-B2C9-96DA76A17A0A&webtag=tp-breaktime
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Piffin,
I see one dent in the wood, no scratches. Those who have been here haven't seen any scratches either. You aren't confusing wood pores with scratches are you?
Edited 7/27/2008 8:24 pm ET by frenchy
I know what wood pores and figuring is frenchie.I outlined what looks like scratches.I don't need to make a case that poly finished floors don't scratch. They do. Any wood floor does.You are the one who makes the outrageous claim that shellac doesn't scratch. You have the burden of proof.
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Piffin
I'm too decent a person to call you a liar but let's just say you strain the ability to believe you.
You claim to have done shellaced floors. That's very interesting.. That on an island in Maine should have that many wood floors to do. I sold equipment for 17 years. That required vists to as many job sites as I could get to. 30 a day wasn't that uncommon...
I visited everything from 20 million dollar + homes to modest little town houses and apartment buildings.. I watched countless wood floors be installed and finished. Talked to the installers and finishers. Yet I never heard or saw shellac being used. I'm guessing here but I'd say I visited something around 100,000 job sites/homes and never saw or heard of shellac used on floors. That shellac should be so common on a island in Maine while never appearing in Minnesota, Iowa or Wisconsin strains my ability to believe you..
If you note my shellaced finish is relatively thin. Three one pound cut coats. That's why you can see the wood pores.. That's because when I did that I didn't have any idea of how it would go. I'd read a piece about shellac and wood flooring in an old book I bought and gave it a try. (I modified the technique called for because of a trick an old painter taught me when I used to spray laquer) My thoughts at the time were if it failed I could simply wipe it all up..
One of those you circled is a hair from my dog, two of those are dents from his claws but if you look close you'll note no torn shellac.. one of them is a piece of lint/dust and I can't tell what the other is..
I didn't claim shellac can't scratch. I have repeatedly said how easy it was to repair should it scratch..(or be damaged) Countless times I've told my little joke about rubbing shellac with denatured alcohol and saying abra cadabra to amaze small children..
"You claim to have done shellaced floors."You have to go back and read again.What I said is that I have used shellac and that I am familiar with it on floors as well as other wood surfaces.I work on homes that are anywhere from 80-200 years old. Do a little thinking and you might realize that many of those homes have floors that were done with shellac, wax, oil, and poly. I know one from another and how they wear of decades of wear and how often they get redone and how much use they see by my exposure to them.I apply shellac as a seal coat to my wood flooring before it is installed as part of prep to get it sealed for the humidity swings we see here. That prevents cupped, shrinking, and swelling to some degree.So a coat or sometimes two on all four sides, resticker, then start laying the flooring. After it is laid, another sealcoat or two of shellac for a protection surface so spills etc do not stain the wood while we do the trim and paint job.Then the floor guy comes in to sand that top surface off and apply the coating of choice for that particular job. Sometimes the shellac I apply is there for a year and a half before the finisher sands it off.So I get another way of seeing what it will stand up to and how easy it is to scratch, besides observing the older homes that had been shellaced a few times over the past hundred years.It is a shame you are so narrow minded that you can't accept any evidence that proves you wrong without trying to cast my facts in doubt.Your picture shows your scratches in your floor.
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Piffin
Ok so now we're arguing semantics.. My original statement which you accused me of lying dealt with the suitability of shellac as a finish for flooring.. I have repeatedly stated and restated it's advantages over poly. The gist of your argument is that shellac is not suitable and that other finishes Notably polys are superior. I asked those who were such strong advocates if they themselves had ever done a shellacked floor.. You chimed up and claimed to have done so..
I could do as you did and pick apart each word in your sentence and take them out of context. For example you claim that you work on homes 80 to 200 years old.. homes with floors done with shellac, wax, oil, and poly.
I could then accuse you of lying because they didn't have poly 80 to 200 years ago did they?
Is that really how you want to conduct this debate?
Or will you agree to be civilized and conduct yourself in the spirit of this forum? A free exchange of various ideas and opinions. Where conduct such as you recently displayed is outside the spirit and frankly beneath you..
I can accept that you prefer poly. Can you accept poly has it's own limitations as well?
If so I will briefly summarize my position, allow you to summarize your objections to my position and be finished with it..
I feel that for an average do-it-yourselfer that shellac has too many advantages over poly to be ignored.. Among those are cost, ease of use, durability, ease of repair, speed, environmentally friendly, and beauty.
"I can accept that you prefer poly. Can you accept poly has it's own limitations as well?"I have never said anything differet.Where you get off wrong is probably something to do with the fact that you just can't understand what you read - here is why - You say, "My original statement which you accused me of lying dealt with the suitability of shellac as a finish for flooring."That is not true.
The place where I called you out is way back where pete had posted a quote from the manufacturer stating clearly and unequivocally that shellac is not as hard as modern poly finishes. It is a simple fact of life, chemically substantiated.
within a couple of posts, you had twice said that that was not true - there is your lie, because it is absolutely true.Everything you have spent time running around chasing your tail on since then has been trying to avoid facing that mistake on your part.All the rest of it is fluff. Shellac is fine for some floors, oil is fine for some, poly is fine for most.But all your passion pushing all shellac, all the time, for all floors is just pure BS.
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Doesn't Minnesota have all of those health care facilities?
Something here tells me there's an issue separate from the shellac / poly debate...
Since we're all friends here, maybe someone needs to suggest a doctor's visit is in order?
Let's pray for him instead. There is a limit to what those doctors can do.
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Piffin,
My experiance has been shellac is superior to poly. I have several times had poly quickly mark and scratch. I've also seen it marked and scratched up badly on floors done by pros. Most noteably on a floor just prior to open house that simply walking on it a week after it had been done marked the floor. Apparently the high humidity and something else caused it to remain soft.
When my sister and others have used shellac we've never had any problem like that.
Now you are attempting to get me to say that shellac is softer than poly and frankly you are wrong.. My experiance has been otherwise.
I did give you an oppertunity to let it go at that but since you choose not to. I'll demand you show me pictures of the floors you claim to have shellaced.. Lacking that I'll assume like some of your postings you are speaking about things you have no real knowledge of and just like Piffin screws have taken a position and are unwilling to amend it in face of facts to the contrary..
"Now you are attempting to get me to say that shellac is softer than poly"
I am not trying to get you to say anything. You say plenty all by your self without me prompting you.
I'm just saying that when you come off with false propaganda and get all unhinged, I'm here to straighten you out.Want pictures huh?You know where this is gonna lead, dontcha?LOL, you lose!I'll throw you a bone for now.
Dinner is ready
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Piffin ,
If you call those floors finished then I pity your customers..
So, 100 + posts into this thread and what have we figured out? Go with shellac?
I sit here on my computer chair as it rides along on my shellaced floors not really noticing whether or not I have scratches, I know I do, don't care cause I'm going to tear this ugly oak floor up someday and replace it with pine so that the place looks historically correct and I don't have a clue what finish I will use on them!
The shellac was here when I bought the place and I've redone one floor with shellac cause it was easy, not for any other reason.
Doug
Edited 7/28/2008 8:37 pm ET by DougU
I'm using shellac on my re-claimed pine floors here. I have 4 dogs.
Two reasons for me. One, it's cheap and easy, dries fast, and is destroyable ( I want a distressed finish)
Two..Frenchy said so.
I could use anything I want, but really, for ME..shellac will be fine. For a customer? I'd let them decide after offering a few choices. Lifestyle has a LOT to do with it.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
You gonna play that thing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32Ln-SpJsy0
Two reasons for me. One, it's cheap and easy, dries fast, and is destroyable ( I want a distressed finish)
Exactly!
I will probably use it myself because of the convince of it all, not cause I think its superior to other finishes but it will serve the purpose, similar to your thinking.
I want my floors to look like they have been here for 155 years.
So, how do you feel about the war in Iraq, we need to switch to a subject with less controversy.
Doug
" want a distressed finish"That is why I said it is good for someone who wants a "lived in " look
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That is why I said it is good for someone who wants a "lived in " look
absolutely.
There is no such thing as the perfect finish, they all have their +'s and -'s. I'd never use shellac cause I thought it was the greatest thing since the wheel but there is a place for it and you described one of them.
Doug
I never said they were finished. You wanted pictures of s=floors I have used shellac on. I already told you how and when I use shellac. Those are in the drying of a first coat of two coats for sealer and wear coat to protect the floor during construction. Too bad you can't read and retain what you have read.
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Piffin,
I read but you didn't follow my rules!I spoke at length about using shellac as a first coat but that isn't what I asked about and you darn well know it.. whenever you're cauhgt you default to the picking words out of context.
As long as you know it I don't care..
"you didn't follow my rules!"Ha!Never will
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I think Frenchy is so desperately in love with shellac because it is as he describes it.....idiot proof. <G>
Well, it is easy
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I'm also thinkin' that instead of pointing out how well shellac (supposedly) holds up to my dog's long nails...I'd be trimmin' those nails.... or taking the dog to a vet to have them trimmed. It's painful for the dog to run around with nails like that.
I await Frenchy info to the contrary. It'll be along shortly, I'm sure. <G>
Edited 7/28/2008 11:48 pm ET by HootOwl
Hootowl
We did take buddy to the vet for his first trimming, but after four aides and the vet wrestled with buddy for nealy a half hour and then finally sedating him the vet advized us to simply take buddy for long walks down the street and that would keep his nails worn to comfortable lengths..
They still are plenty long but perhaps I should adjust my thinking to the size of the dog.. Remember he puts his paws on my shoulders and looks down at me when standing..
I'm glad he's gentle because he's a really powerful dog..
I'm guessing from your descriptions that those long walks don't actually happen frequently enough.
Most dogs these days will need to have their nails trimmed. Knowing that, one should acclimate the dog to this procedure while they're still a young puppy. If they're accustomed to you handling their paws, no problem. If they aren't, usually a big problem. Same as for brushing their teeth.
By the way....I have a longleaf heartpine kitchen floor here that I refinished 19 years ago. Applied three coats of oil-based poly. It has numerous dents in it, but no peeling finish around any of those dents. It also has zero scratches in it. Believe me or not. Don't really care one way or the other.
This floor receives no special treatment. Work shoes right off the gravel driveway, wet shoes, muddy shoes on occasion, dog traffic (Labrador), etc. And being a kitchen, it sees plenty of high traffic in localized areas (refrigerator, kitchen sink, stove, etc).
We can clean it with any product of choice...including those containing ammonia. Alcohol spills? Who cares. Not a problem, even if it should sit there all night.
It has not worn thru anywhere...requiring additional finish. The finish is still thick and I suspect will go another 20 years. Maybe more.
When I do finishing work for clients, I ask them if they would like a finish that is very easily renewed/repaired... or the most durable (reducing the likelihood of repairs). For some, the former makes more sense. (example - kids banging the #### out of the woodwork with whatever implement is in their hands at the moment) For most "adult" households, the latter makes the most sense. The client chooses which category and then we discuss the choices within that category. It's not a one-size-fits-all and "performs best" world when it comes to choosing a wood finish. Or should I say it doesn't need to be? Gotta be open-minded to realize that. Some are, some aren't.
My poly is about 15 years old and in good shape except one spot the dog peed.
Didn't have any problems with the 120 pound dog claws either. But I've argued with Frenchy before and don't want no part of it.
Catfish,
I'm sorry, I failed to respond to your wonderful compliment..
Frankly you can't give a higher compliment to a professional salesman than the fact that he's able to either you convince either of the value of his position or cause you to abandon your own deeply held beliefs..
I sincerly think you!
Is that what that was?
Frankly you can't give a higher compliment to a professional salesman than the fact that he's able to either you convince either of the value of his position or cause you to abandon your own deeply held beliefs..
I believe that called seduction by deception and domination. One of the "devil's" (ego's) favorite methods to steal from the innocent and ill informed.
Now that you've revealed the fact that you fully ascribe to that sleazy behavior as admirable, in any context, I vote to toss your sorry behind off this board, permanently.
And did neither for me; I'm neither convinced nor have I abandoned my beliefs, other than in frenchys mind.
Hudson Valley Carpenter
It's a very good thing your perverted bit of information isn't valid.. In Piffin speak you're lying.
For example please tell me where I've ever suggested deception.. Nor have I ever advocated domination.. Those who have listened to my advice on how to sell will tell you that I believe firmly in the shut up and sell principle..
Another words in order to sell you must listen, really listen to what a person is saying.. try to get into his head,, feel what he is feeling and place yourself in his position in order to serve him well. Only then will you be able to handle his objections and fears..
Sales should never be about taking advantage of another person.. If you've allowed that to happen shame on you.. A good salesman.. one who makes a career out of selling knows that it's in his interest to satisfy a customers needs and provide him with the service he needs in order to make a good selection..
Salesman are professional liars.
Catfish
What a warped foolish idea you have..
I've made my career as a professional salesman and during the last 17 years selling telehandlers to home builders fully 80% of my sales were either repeats or referals by other contracters who felt they got treated well by me..
I've been out of that business for 11 months now and seldom does more than a few days go by without one of my former customers contacting me to discuss various items. (sometimes to simply socialize and sometimes to get advice from me)..
To make a good living selling you need repeat customers. The time it takes to find new customers is monumental. Since relatively few contractors have need for more than one telehandler and since we're talking about a$80,000+ piece of equipment when new that is a extremely limited market.
Contractors talk among themselves and poor salesmen cannot remain in the market for long. Poor salesmen are those who do not provide good service/value to their clients.
That is not to say all salesmen are good Just like not all contractors are good..
17 good years is an indicator that I was one of the good ones..
No its an indicator you showed for work for 17 years, nothing more. Pleas do not post your OPINION as fact.
catfish,
Well it's an opinion backed up by facts as you are well aware..
No ones but your own. Even the manufacturer says shellac is softer and less durable than poly. And it Zinnser, which you claim to use.
So how is your opinion fact? I know you hate to get called on your BS, but its BS, no more no less.
catfish.
Stay on topic, don't jump from one to another and pull a Piffin..
We were talking about whether I was successful or not. I told the importance of being straightforward and of value to customers in order to have long term success. As an example I gave the fact that the vast majority of my customers come from referals and repeats. Without those I would be one of the countless people in my industry who got in briefly and then was forced out by their inability to make a living..
One person in 100 makes a living as a salesman for more than 5 years.. It's a tough demanding career filled with pressure.
What you did is jump from that statement to a statement Piffin challengened me on much earlier..
(which is sort of what Piffin did as well).
As to that statement.. I've said that shellac is tougher than poly's (others have said the same thing on this site) I've also said that my floor is remarkably scratch free. I spoke of my dogs claws and pointed out I'd pushed a piano across that floor.
He takes a manufactors statement of warning like we get on a cup of coffee and Ford Motor company talks about checking tire pressure and claims that is proof that shellac is inferior to poly.
We've all had or seen soft Poly's . Ones that are easy to mark and scuff. . If that has never happened to you then you either don't do floors or you're perfect.. which is it?
Finally Piffin takes pictures and posts them of newly finished floors and claims they are unmarked.. well I should hope so.. let's see those same floors after 3+ years of dogs and pianos.
Piffin actually has a job and has worked on more than 1 house, his opinion is infinitely more informed than you will ever have.
You MAY be a great salesmen, we have only your word for that, and if it follows along with your normal mode, thats bull too. If you are going to make unsubstantiated statements you will get called out on this forum. Unfortuantely, thats all you got.
You think the manufacturer is giving a false warning that shellac is softer than other finishes? Surely they test the product. Give us facts, not my dog didn't scratch it, I moved a piano on it. That means do-do, nada, nothing, zero, zilch.
Stupidly, I went ahead and fed into your BS, my bad.
Catfish.
Caution coffee is hot does that mean we don't drink coffee?
It's not my job to do tests on materials. I didn't nor have you.. I've reported my experiance as have other who post here from time to time.
Not long ago someone came on asking how to remove a floor finish that was at least 80 years old and had been shellaced.
We can both speculate about how hard that floor was used but 80 years? show me an 80 year old poly floor.. <grin>
As for Piffin.
I'm certain that living on an island in Maine he has a limited exposure to some things. In addition he has made his living doing things a certain way.. that does not mean that his is the only way or even the only correct way.
The diatribe he had over the use of sheetrock screws is a classic example.. I'm glad I wasn't involved in that one.. (even though I happen to agree with the gist of his statement, not everything he said would I take to the bank)
Edited 7/30/2008 10:02 am ET by frenchy
"Finally Piffin takes pictures and posts them of newly finished floors and claims they are unmarked.. "Yet another lie.
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Well I'm not listening to any advice from you any more either. That shellac floor you did looked horrible. How did you explain that to your customers you hack???!!!???!!!
I'm so embarrassed! What's a sealcoat supposed to look like?
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Don't try and play innocent. It's right there in the code: Sealcoat=Beagle, second coat=Pitbull, topcoat=Great Dane.
What's a sealcoat supposed to look like?
Like this:
View Image
LMAO
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"in order to sell you must listen, really listen to what a person is saying.. try to get into his head,, feel what he is feeling and place yourself in his position in order to serve him well."You have well proven in this thread that you are unable to do that, frenchy. You insist on selling only the one product you favor instead of taking the time to listen to what kind of floor needs a person has and then recommend based on his needs.
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It isn't any new revalation. He has shown his stripes regularly over the years by his behaviour.Singing "I am king of this bar!" when everyone else left because if his singing and went to the bar down the street.
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He has shown his stripes regularly over the years by his behaviour.
And I've been giving him the benefit of the doubt, since I got here last year, thinking that he might be a victim of some emotional disorder, causing compulsive, blind adherence to certain thought processes and opinions which have been imposed on his mind by indoctrination.
I've seen plenty of evidence of that in friends and aquaintances over many years, to the detriment of their emotional growth and well being, in almost every case.
But now, according to the statements I quoted from his post, it's become clear that he understands the implications of what he's attempting to do.
And I note, in his response to my reply, that he's doing his best to avoid responsibility for his stated beliefs and place it on others.
I don't suppose I have to characterize those attempts for anyone. That would only be a further imposition, not unlike what I'm objecting to.
Edited 7/29/2008 9:08 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
Hudson Valley Carpenter.
You should really save your armature psychiatry for your pets or someone else you can't harm with it..
I've been a strong advocate for the only position I know, the truth.
I've found certain things that work for me and have worked well for others.. be it the source of wood, technique I use in selling, or what finish to use and why.
Let us directly speak to the most recent uproar..
I found shellac to be a simple safe and durable product. I have a technique of application that makes it very near impossible for anyone to make a mistake that cannot be easily fixed..
Certain people highly invested in other products have challanged me on that. Some even going so far as to take statements out of context. For example I've never said shellac is impossible to scratch.. I have said that it is easy to repair. Which if you put two and two together why would you need to repair a scratch if you can't scratch it?
Your claim that I need help is another example.
If you don't like the advice I give don't use it.. go right ahead and use poly. Plenty of people give advice on this site and not all of it is the same.
Why attack me personally?
You should really save your armature psychiatry for your pets or someone else you can't harm with it..
It doesn't take a college degree to recognize patterns of behavior. It only takes a quiet, intuitively perceptive mind to observe and evaluate.
That kind of quiet observation works just as well on one's own behavior as it does on others. It's what many people learn to do in daily life as a means to keep themselves moving forward on their own higher path, and to avoid going off on tangents, such as you tend to do quite often.
Again Hudson Valley Carpenter..
I didn't claim that you had a college degree in psychiatry did I? (speaking of going off on tangents)
We disagree on some subjects.. people do. Telling someone to get medical attention is an insult (unless you are qualified and asked)
I am going on the path I choose. Can you say the same for yourself? (I could be impolite and mention several tangents you yourself have gone on.. but I won't)
Referring to my last post and your reply; it's truly unfortunate that you're so involved in your attack and defend mentality that you can't recognize a little friendly, constructive advice when it's offered.
Goes back to and confirms my previous observations about compulsive behavior. The same sort of observations I've made about several friends I've known over the last thirty-five years who commited suicide, suddenly and without warning.
So beware of the ego's motives. They aren't all about building you up in your own eyes and those of others.
How's things going out there on the shakey side?
It's quiet today, although my feet and legs are leaning toward the front door, ready to swivel this office chair around quickly. ;-)
No actually it was a gentle, rolling quake, different from the big bumps and shakes that happen when they begin closer by. I didn't feel threatened by it, just sat here and waited to see if it would get stronger before heading outside. It never did so I stayed put.
The only adjustment I make after a quake is to wear clothes to bed and keep my big flashlight and crescent wrench nearby, to go out and shut off the gas if that's required. That's because of the frequent after shocks, though they're seldom as bad as the initial quake.
I've been through so many that they've become a feature of life here, like living near a train track which gets occasional use.
Those two tools are normally together in a kitchen drawer and I have other survival gear on hand as well.
It's what living here has taught Angelenos, over many years. Not much different from living in places where tornadoes are a hazard.
So how're you feeling today, living near the tallest moutain range in the U.S.? Isn't that big motha about to give birth to some shakey jakes pretty soon?
;-)
The guy that used to live next door to me was some fire dept offical down in Oceanside. He told me there was a movement back then to have a requirement to have a shut off wrench hanging from everyone's gas meter for such situations.
I only felt one when I lived there for 5 years. It was a sharp, quick jolt that made me think the dog had hit the bed while he was scratching. At night, and I was sleeping - unitl that happened.
He told me there was a movement back then to have a requirement to have a shut off wrench hanging from everyone's gas meter for such situations.
Since the North Ridge quake, there's a new law requiring that an automatic shut off valve be installed before a home can be sold. It can also be shut off or reset manually, without a wrench. It only requires pushing a small inset button and rotating the substantial face plate, either clockwise or counterclockwise.
I have one here, waiting for the plumber when he finds the time to go pick up the permit and get it done.
Edited 7/30/2008 2:57 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
Girls, girls... all of this bickering and gumming up the posts is getting to be tiring. What don't you all hug each other and move on?
So you're waiting for some new revelations about the cost of refinishing a floor? I thought that question was answered in the first dozen posts.
If you're still reading this thread and not finding anything useful here, you can move on too.
Does someone here need a hug?
Have you been watching Sesame Street? Are you wearing your Big Bird suit? ;-)
I cant believe that this thread is still here, hell I've seen less ridiculous threads disappear!
Doug
And so you're reviving it after five hours of silence because.....??
Edited 7/30/2008 11:29 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
Just making an observation is all. That's OK with you isn't it?
You seam to be taking on the roll of thread super here lately, never really cared to much for self appointed authority though.
Doug
When I get an Email notification that a post is addressed to me, I usually respond in kind, because I assume that it's what the person posting expects.
If it wasn't your intention to start a conversation with me, why didn't you address you post to "All"?
why didn't you address you post to "All"?
I usually do but this time I probably just hit the "respond" button without giving it any thought, I'll try to be more vigilant in the future.
BTW, not all posts require a response, for example............
Doug
"You seam to be taking on the roll of thread super here lately"Hey that's the job I want !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!(If it pays good then I'm all set - I waste so much time in here anyway I might as well get paid for it ;)
(If it pays good then I'm all set - I waste so much time in here anyway I might as well get paid for it ;)
I'd say that, even at minimum wage, most of us would be makin' out pretty good. :-)
That might be a new idea, paid experts answering questions on sponsored web sites. Kind of like that http://www.expertvillage.com video idea I posted last week but responding to questions in writing with still photos instead.
Hey Taunton! You guys listening? Me and MrFixIt are lookin' for a new gig here.
LoLLet's see $5 per hour times 23 hours a day. Hmmmm
The 20 years I spent as a salesman taught me that the ONLY way salesmen are judged is by the amount of business they bring in the door. The quality of service or advice to the customer is irrelevant.
Lie, steal, cheat - doesn't matter. Even when the lies and cheating lead to lawsuits, even huge lawsuits, the management will keep the guy on to repay the lawsuit. Afterall, they figger no one else can generate that amount of revenue and the guy knows he has a debt to pay off. So as a business decision, it becomes the least of two evils. Unless he's a poor producer. Then the guy is out the door and his accounts are turned over to a near criminal.
As a former sales manager told me once in an attempt to get me up to speed - "It doesn't matter how well you service the client or make him happy, if YOU don't generate enough income to stay around to keep him happy, I will be. And to be frank, I'll rape them."
Fortunately, some form of unexplained gun shot accident in his home did him in a few years later. I was told thet the police said it appeared as if he heard some noise downstairs and was going to check on it with his loaded handgun, slipped on a stair, and fell down and suffered a self-inflicted mortal wound. Last I heard, the wife was fighting with the insurance company over the double indemity accidental clause.
Some industries are requiring ethics training. These are the more visible industries. The ones in the public's eye more frequently. I wouldn't imagine selling telehandlers or shellac falls into those categories.
peteschlagor,
Hmmm,,..... wasn't it you who insisted that you did a good job servicing your customers?
Never mind.. I sure wouldn't want to work for a company with that approach.
I've spent 24+ years in the material handling industry and service is paramount in order to retain clients.. Poor service and you are quickly drummed out of business.. You see sales isn't the income generator in this business.. parts and service are.
"The 20 years I spent as a salesman taught me that the ONLY way salesmen are judged is by the amount of business they bring in the door. The quality of service or advice to the customer is irrelevant."
I tried direct sales for a couple of years during my early twenties, in SoCal.
Beginning with an early version of HMOs, group coverage, which was too peculiar for most people to grasp, then a waterless cookware set which never caught on.
After that I worked in radio advertising sales for a station which had an audience that was too limited to define, then onto the first cable TV antenna service out in Saugus, now called the (ahem) Santa Clarita Valley, also to a limited group of new homeowners.
My final gasp was a three hour presentation in the home for a water softener/pure soap deal, marketed to new homeowners who'd been told that they would be getting a free gift (something impressive was implied) from a person who was just coming by to welcome them to the neighborhood. So it was not an easy close, most of the time.
As you've indicated, any really good sales presentation is deceptive as hell because it's the only way to make the product seem flawless and necessary.
What always got me, soon after discovering the flies in the ointment, was how many salespeople became convinced of the BS themselves. "Drinking the Kool Ade" it's called, right?
I guess that illusionary vision of one's product line is a requirement for salepeople who need to feel honest and upstanding in order to deceive others successfully. Hahaha.
It's a form of self hypnosis, I believe, putting one's mind into that state of believing the company's BS everyday so that the sales pitch can be delivered with real convicton.
After doing that to the mind daily for a few weeks it becomes part of that salesperson's belief system, allowing them to live under those illusions without the usual tension caused by inner conflict.
Does that analysis fit in your experience, working with other succesful BSers in sales?
(no offense) ;-)
All the OP asked was the cost per square foot.Starting
2.50, sand new floor or old floors (in good shape) 2 coats of Duraseal polyurethane finish; add a 1.00 for two coats glitza; 1.50 for three coats of water based finish.I don't know what your finish would run since no professionals use it.Wallyo
wallyo.
Apparently you are wrong. According to Piffin he uses it and the previous poster claims to have used it as well. Plus if you read Fine Home Building issue 184 recommends it as a step in the finishing process.
That aside shellac was the finish of choice until post WW2 when chemical compaines started to hype their finish while shellac never spent anything and fell out of favor.. That is the trap that so many have fallen into. Listening only to marketing and deciding between various marketing efforts rather than consider everything..
I can understand informed people making their decision however since so many aren't well informed or have mistaken ideas I'll continue my campaign.
On a regular basis I get nice polite E-Mails from various people who have tried shellac and like the results..That's sufficent reward for me.
But it makes me wonder if due to the ease shellac can be repaired or touched up professionals resist using or recommending it?
FrenchyAll I know is I have yet to see an add by a wood flooring company that touts shellac as one of their finish options. If you find an add or a web site, let me know but once again you digress.What does a refinishing job cost? That was the question asked.Wallyo
wallyo
It costs me about $50.00 for 500 sq.ft. or ten cents a sq. ft. (material costs) my painter works for free so I don't need to pay taxes or benefits. Plus he has his own insurance.
Oh the old grouch complaigns a lot about every darn little thing but he just goes right on working for free.
Don't bother to try to hire him away he's extremely loyal to me and promised to stick around untill I die..
" Countless times I've told my little joke about rubbing shellac with denatured alcohol and saying abra cadabra to amaze small children.. "Which points out that there have been countless times that small children have found scratches in your floors, LOL
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
IMHO and experience:I love shellac! I use it often finishing trim and furniture and for hiding scratches in other finishes. Thinned (1/3 or 1/4 lb cut) shellac makes a seal coat prior to poly.Shellac is easily dyed and is the easiest finish to use for blending small repairs in old floors and trim.Most "soft" poly finishes are the result of insufficient curing between coats. It's shame that accumulation of delays (for whatever reason)end up affecting the proper finishing of a project Floors are not fine furniture, saying what's right or proper for one is right or proper for the other pure silliness.Unlike DIYers, our clients aren't looking for another hobby(floor finish repair) that's why they hire us to work to do the work for them -they have kids, careers, and other interests that they choose to devote their lives to. All they want is a floor that doesn't squeak and looks great after it's damp mopped and nice until it's mopped again.While the vigor with which frenchie defends his selection of materials and method is laudable, the underlying projection is disturbing. I hope all works out for him as pimping shellac and sawmill off-cuts is no career
Jim
The awful thing is that beauty is mysterious as well as terrible. God and the devil are fighting there, and the battlefield is the heart of man.- Fyodor Dostoyevski
FNbenthayer
Sawmill cut offs? You have seen pictures of my home haven't you? (if not go to 94941.1) I wouldn't call timbers as large as 12"x12"x24' as cut offs.
If you honestly believe That I'm touting the advantages of sawmill cutoffs then perhaps I need to start another post on that subject <grin>
As to shellac It's a frequently overlooked product that as you pointed out has many advantages. Fear of use and poor results have managed to scare nearly everyone away from it.
I think I'm doing my fellow breaktimers a good service by talking about it's advantages. Plus providing a differant technique to it's application (which you seem well aware of) Those like yourself with actual experaince and satisfactory results will of course get bored and some challenge me to each word used in each sentence which of course results in endless boring arguements..
(something I relish<grin>)
However if you don't want to be bored or offended simply skip past the subject. I won't feel offended. I regularly skip past subject I have little interest in or can make little positive comments on..
<So far nobody with anyexperaince doing a shellaced floor has come on and told me I'm wrong.. >Would it do any good?
Barry E-Remodeler
BarryE
Interesting question.. Several who have followed my advice have written and told me about their success. I've been successful myself..
Is this about being right or wrong or is it about maybe learning something new or something that many aren't aware of?
frenchyI've used shellac for floors and woodwork. Also used varnish, waterbournes and urethanes both modified oils and moisture cured.there's a place and a reason for most anything and you may have an army of admirersbut the thing is I don't see you considering any viewpoint that doesn't agree with yours....therefore many posters prefer not to beat their head against the wall. So your data may be skewed. I on the other hand always take into consideration that you are from Minnesota <g>
Barry E-Remodeler
BarryE
I'm a strong supporter of my position but that doesn't mean I can't admire others work..
That doesn't mean I can't argue as effectively as possible for my position does it?
I like it when you argue passionately for what you believe and what its good points are.It is when you have to lie about the opposing view that I call you on the carpet.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin
I've said that shellac is tough and durable. You haven't given me any evidence to the contrary. I've included pictures of my floor and shown how my 150 pound dog damaged the wood without hurting the shellac.
You make the claim that shellac is fragile and a bad value (at least I think it was you, perhaps that was Mike Smith).
I've refuted that with real practical examples..
Shellac when damaged can be repaired without the need for sanding unlike poly's
I talk about prices and the ease of application while you insist that floor finishing can only be done by trained people, presumably yours..
No one here has any proof that isn't correct. Merely opinions..
I've shown actual pictures of shellaced floors while you ask me to accept your word..
I point out the flaws in your arguments and yet you call me a liar..
.
You have not pointed out any flaws in my arguements.What you have done is mis-state what I have said and then argue against what you have made up. That inveted arguement itself is a lie.But that is not what I meant when I say you lie about the opposite vbiew.Remember when I entered this discussion was against your claim that shellac was harder than poly finishes. I never took a position that it is not tough and durable. I only point out that it is not as tough and durable as you claim and I pointed out that even the manufacturer admits that it is not as tough, hard or durable as poly finishes. That is your lie that you persist in repeating when you claim the company who makes and sells it doesn't know what they are selling. When did I say here that only trained professionals can apply poly floor finishes.? There is an other lie of yours.You show pictures of your shellaced floor claiming that it doesn't scratch but one of those pictures shows several scratches.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin.
It's been a while since those pictures were taken but there still aren't scratches in the finish. There clearly are a couple of dents in the wood but there are no scratches. Dented wood is not a scratched finish.. Look closely at the edge of those dents and you won't see any finish failure..
That clearly to me proves shellac is harder than the various poly's I've used in the past.
I also use a basic thumbnail test.. I've coated various woods with poly's and then with shellac.. waiting 30 days I drag my thumbnail acroos them and the poly always dents while the shellac is unmarked..
As for the statement that you (or someone else) claimed that pros should apply floor finishes (I think the term was trained experts).. well frankly that's a load of bull. Most so called experts watch someone and then do it themselves. They may start out as an assitant but I've never heard of a factory holding training class to teach proper application of finishes.. On rare occasions a salesman will hold brief seminars in an attempt to move more of his product but that hardly qualifies as training..
Once more time - I have NOT claimed that it takes a trained professional to apply poly to floors. You keep making things up to have something to argue against.As for your definition of scratching, here is an oil finished floor that has no scratches either then.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
<That doesn't mean I can't argue as effectively as possible for my position does it? >absolutely not..I often admire your convictionBut.....to effectively argue a position also requires the ability to effectively listen.an effective argument is NOT the ability to out shout the other side
Barry E-Remodeler
obviously not
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
hope springs eternal
Barry E-Remodeler
What type of shellac do you use for floors? I have done 4 of my floors with water based poly and have fought bubbles every time. I love shellac on furniture projects because it is so forgiving. I might try it on the next floor. (4 more to go)
I use water based poly whenever I re-finish floors and used to have problems with bubbles when I used a roller. Since switching to an applicator pad I have never had a problem.
(sort of reads like a testimonial: "Since switching to Rogain I notice my hair is ...)
I use a brush.Guy I know always had problems with pocks and bubbles, but he refused to use a tack clothe and left dust between coats. Matter of fact, he rarely sanded between coats. Then he complained about the product!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
DougY
I have used a variety of shellacs over the years but my favorite is to use Zinssers Bulls eye thinned with two gallons of denatured alcohol. I flood it on. Speed being critical. That first coat dries in about 15 minutes and then I speed sand it with 220 grit sanding block or 3M sanding sponge.. Real lick and promise type sanding. about a second to a second and a half per sq.ft. All you are doing is sanding off the nubs that get raised with the first coat. Don't bother to correct any mistakes or whatever, remember the next coat will melt the first coat..
Two gal. per how much shellac?
DougY
Sorry, two gallons of denatured alcohol to one gallon of Zinssers Bulls eye.
One critical point. Don't ever back track or go back over /make a second pass over shellac once you've put it down.. If you have a holiday or skipped area let it go..
The next coat will melt together with the first coat and make an invisable repair
When you over thin as I suggest each coat is extremely thin and thus holidays really don't show up. Plus the over thinned shellac flows out and self levels to a degree that I'm not able to duplicate with normal brushing technque.
You are poking the bear:)
"Note that shellac is notas durable or scratch-resistant as polyurethane or otherfinishes formulated for application to floor surfaces."Say it not true, Joe! Joe? Joe?It can't be true. Now I am starting to tear up.Next thing you will tell that there is no Santa..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
LMAO
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
You gonna play that thing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32Ln-SpJsy0
Maybe he understood that, maybe we should type french, English is way beyond his mental capacity to understand.
I will be posting in Breaktime, just not to frenchy
Edited 7/30/2008 10:26 am ET by catfish
catfish
I thought the last word was going to be the profanity you offered to me..
I'm glad it's not since the use of profanity is a shallow mind attempting to express itself and I'm sure you wouldn't want to leave with that impression..
"is a shallow mind attempting to express itself and I'm sure you wouldn't want to leave with that impression.."Is that something you learned when you recently got kicked out of this forum?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin
I know I've won when you're forced to make personal attacks rather than try to make a good arguement..