Need a new roof on a 50’s ranch style house at the beach. It’s a shallow- pitched (1/12) tar-and-gravel. Inside, the rooof decking (1×6 t&g redwood) is exposed, so there’s no insulation. We’re considering a foam roof to add some r-value, but also have a proposal to strip the old roof, then appply 1 1/2″ foam panels followed by 1/2″ fiberboard panels covered w/ standard tar and gravel. I’m hoping to get some feedback on the pros/cons of the two different approaches.
Thanks
Replies
the spray foam is a waste of money..
they leak after a while (short)... really difficult to find them...
birds destroy the stuff... causing leaks...
after a short while it's time to scrap the foam roof and put in built up like ya should have done in the 1st place...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Thanks for the reply. So are you aware of any reason not to install the foam panels under a standard tar and gravel roof?Bill
>>>>>>>>>>>So are you aware of any reason not to install the foam panels under a standard tar and gravel roof?Polyiso is the flat roof insulation panel of choice around here. What IMERC said - foam roof bad, foam under real roof good.
"Does this motel give discounts to the clergy?" - Gunner, Conneaut, OH '06
http://grantlogan.net/
go for it... built up is way better....
that spray foam is a nightmare...
extreme maint too...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
My FIL owns a place in one of the Sun City places near Phoenix. Needed to be reroofed, and could only be done by an association-approved contractor, and to meet association standards.
It was done with foam, like all the other couple thousand or so in that version of Sun City. Now of course, it gets some kind of membrane or built-up system atop, and ballast besides, but it begins as foam.
It doesn't rain very often in Phoenix so a good roof is not high priority
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Count Tres Amigos here.
Foam de nada
BUR Si!
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
what did you say...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Something got into me.BUR is built up roof which is otherwise called tar and gravel, but it includes the other kinds of hot asphalt roofing
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
no telling what....
but I got it now..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Espanol on an island up in Maine? Gracias por tu alluda.
Go out where it is the language of the street. These guys below are just one of the many players out there, in a mega-market.
Arizona Foam & Spray in Mesa, Arizona has spray-applied over 100 million square feet of polyurethane foam roofing since 1969
and here is one up near where the OP is:
Dura-Foam Roofing is your contractor of choice for polyurethane foam roof ... over 10000 satisfied customers in the San Francisco Bay Area & Silicon Valley.
Edited 8/25/2006 12:01 am ET by Gene_Davis
Edited 8/25/2006 12:02 am ET by Gene_Davis
Edited 8/25/2006 10:20 am ET by Gene_Davis
Keep on talking. There are flaws with the basic system to begin with. The big advantage is that it is quick and easy.EVERY sinfgle one I have seen is where the HOP calls me to repair the leaks two or three years after installation and multiple vain attempts to get the orioginal installers back to fix it. AFAIK, it is not fixanble and once it lets water in, it is trapped to advance rot quickly.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I'm not a flack for foam roof systems, just a web surfer trying to understand. I thought the Sun City vignette was telling, however. This was the first reroof on a 35 year old duplex flatroof, and it had to be done to Sun City standards by an approved and certified contractor, in order to match the performance of the thousands of other units in the community.
In Sun City communities, all the exterior maintenance is handled and governed by the association. Individual homeowners may not change specs, standards, or hire unapproved contractors to do work. Inspection by professionals the associations hire determine when maintenance takes place, and also determine when replacement is to occur.
These are west coast and sunbelt roof systems, apparently.
Here is a clip from a site I found surfing for "foam roof failures."
Long-Term Performance Surveys conducted by Dr. Dean Kashiwagi of the Del E. Web School of Construction at Arizona State University and Dr. Rene Dupuis of the National Roofing Foundation revealed that SPF shows little sign of deterioration even after 30 years.
Dr. Kashiwagi is the pioneer of the “Performance Based Procurement System” for buying best performing services/facility systems. Between 1983 and 1996, he surveyed the performance of more than 1600 SPF roofing systems, the oldest of which were more than 26 years old. Of the roofs surveyed, 97.6% did not leak and 93% had less than 1% deterioration— pretty good statistics considering 55% of those roofs were never maintained.
In the most comprehensive roof survey ever performed by the National Roofing Foundation, Dr. Dupuis evaluated 160 SPF roofing systems in California, Texas, Wisconsin, Illinois, New Jersey, and New York. In presenting his findings, Dr. Dupuis concluded that SPF roofing systems appear to have a very high degree of sustainability with an indefinite life expectancy when properly maintained with periodic recoating. Both Kashiwagi and Dupuis also noted the physical properties of SPF did not diminish over time, and more than 70% of the roofs were applied over existing roofing systems.
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I'm curious to hear about the failures you have fixed. Where were they, and how many have you dealt with? Did you ever see one well done? What is your take on the one Norm and Steve did when they did the TOH makeover in Santa Fe a few years back?
i'll answer your questions in reverse order.I don't watch Norm and Steve. I prefer to get my information from professionals.My experience with faomed systems was in CO and Texas. I did not fix them. I did my best to locate points of entry, cleaned and caulked, billed for my time and wished them good luck. Before begionning I advised them to get a foam install company to deal with the issues, preferrably the original installedrs. apparently there are not many of them who stand behind their work, leaving customers with leaks at wits end.
The most common point of entry I found were at soil stacks and chimney flashings, where they foamed to the old flashing with no attempt to re-do or even satisfactorily clean the existing ones. Foam and go trail light warrantees were apparently the rule.I found the article/study you quoted from to be interesting, but I would add a few comments for context.Again, the Phoenix climate is not typical for most of this country. If I lived there, I would be at least as much interested in the insulation value as in the water shedding ability of the system.My experience with HOs and low-slope roofs is that they often tend to ignore "minor" leaks or are totally ignorant they exist until I point out signs of them. So it does not suprise me that the percentage of leaks reported in this system in a sunny dry climate is low.I don't know much about this particular 'community', but many such management associations are full of corruption when they foster monopolistic situations like this. So their reports fall on deaf ears here without knowing more.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Pif, I guess it is my recent rereading of "Freakononmics" that has been causing me to look with a jaundiced eye on those that profess what sounds like conventional wisdom.
I don't know much about foam roofs. I know most everything about foam as used in ThermaTru doors, and from that I can bet that a foam roof contractor had better be in control of his materials and technology to get it right. And your observation that it is all about the penetrations and the flashing, can apply to any roofing job. So can your observation about original installers standing behind their work.
But as regards TOH, I think you are wrong to dismiss the show, saying you prefer to get your information from professionals. Steve's an actor, but Norm is a real pro, and despite your doubts, can probably produce work as good as any carpenter you know.
But any TOH project just has those guys out front as presenters and commentators, same as Robin and her guy on Hometime. The work we get to observe and learn from watching and listening is being done by real pros, some of them the best in the business.
When Hometime did the series on contracting your own home a few years back, the house they showed abuilding was actually being done by Kyle Hunt, a well-known builder of masterpiece homes all around the Mlps area, and well-praised by some Breaktimers here that know of his work first hand. One of the tidbits I learned from that show, how to use sticks and hotmelt glue to do a tricky countertop template, I still use today.
For one of the TOH recent projects, a house and barn conversion in Carlisle, MA, the list of participating contractors, engineers, and specialty product suppliers can be seen by going here: http://www.thisoldhouse.com/toh/tvprograms/houseproject/resources/0,16597,607636,00.html
I watched only a few segments of the show, but recall the hosts presenting some pretty professional work, discussed with the participating contractors, on the foundation, SIP erection, and the barn jacking. There were definitely things to be learned from pros by watching. My guess is that if you are in the business of building around Carlisle, you know most all of the participants on that list, and might admit, however grudgingly, that most all are good at what they do, and truly professional.
On this foam roof thing under discussion, I think I might follow up with the TOH folks, and see if they will give me the contact info for the roofing sub used to do the foam roof on the Santa Fe project. It would be interesting to ask if he is still in business, stands behind his work, and has had to do any repairs on the one done while the cameras were rolling.
My wife watches those shows sometimes. ( Think she has a thing for construction guys?) And every time I sit down to watch with her, I can't stand it. In every show there is at least one thing dummied up for the camera sequences, or done just plain wrong or something recommended that I would NEVER recommend or do, besed on my own experiences. Maybew I just catch the few bad shows that have been put on, but go ahead and get your education from them if you want. There are a few tidbits worth seeing now and then. just be discriminating.you make some good points about foam roofs and regular BUR being all about the installer and the company. Problem is that I have know a lot of good BUR guys and never met a good faom guy. My impresions are based on my limited experience with their after-effects. Somebody has to show me a good one before I can begin to consider it.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
OK- thanks for the info. This house is oceanfront, gets lots of wind-driven rain, so after your responses, I think we'll skip foam. Given that, what's the opinion on built-up (tar and gravel) vs. membrane (EPDM?) systems? Remember that we'll first be applying 1 1/2" foam board, then 1/2" fiberboard, (or some other insulating system, if there is one).Thanks again for all the great information.Bill
On those two later choices, one primary consideration is as I was discussing with Gene, the quality and reputation of the installer is of high importance, at lweast as high as the system.IMO, both are very good. As EPDM gains in popularity, it gets harder to find qualified and experienced BUR installers ( tar and gravel is a Built-Up Roofing) as the EPDM takes less investment in equipment and engenders lower insurance costs while providing what many consider a better product. It IS less dependent on the vagaries of the weather. Both work over an insulation substrate well.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Something I haven't seen mentioned.
OP says his 1x6's are exposed inside, doesn't he?
When you screw down your build up, whatever it is, doesn't it effect the inside of the finished house now?
I haven't seen a tar and gravel roof in the midwest in years. EPDM seems to be the norm here, but as you say, FIND A reputable and qualified installer.I hope Chuck Norris never potato sacks me!!!!
bstcrpntr --- I hope to grow into this name.
There are ways all elements of a BUR can be mopped in with hot and no nails neded
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Where are you located? 1.5" Polyiso and 1/2" fibreboard is R11 - 12. You can easily upgrage the R value if needed. Also don't forget the vapour retarder if you're in a cold climate.
You may also consider 2 ply modified bitumen, has a granular surface like shingles, but will last longer than 4 ply gravel on a sloped roof and will look better.
Add my vote for running away from exposed foam...... yech!!
Edited 8/24/2006 8:05 pm ET by scottbr
House is in the Monterey, CA area. Very mild climate.Thanks for all the responses!
I had pretty much the same setup as you do except my roof is 2/12This was in 1983, bought a spray outfit from a guy that built a foam house in the mountains and was finished with the equipment. Bought a couple of 55 gal drums of chemicals and went at it. The actual spray work was sort of a nightmare as the spray gun was an internal mix unit and you can guess the learning curve was interesting to say the least, but I did get 2-3 inches on the roof. At that time the best coating for the foam was silicone rubber based and very expensive. Actually it cost more than the foam, so I opted for cheap latex house paint. It worked, sort of, but the foam turned a house that got up to 125 deg at the roof peak inside in the summer into no differential from head height to roof. In the winter the snow would only stick to the 2 ft over hang all around. Now the roof still has lasting snow longer than conventional shingle on insulated attic construction. Well 20 plus years later the roof is about shot as the ultrviolet has eaten a lot of the foam away but it has been a slow process. Actually some applications don't bother to coat the foam because the gegeneration process is slow enough and the savings of not coating with expensive stuff pays for a recoat. You results with the ultraviolet exposure may vary but here at 5000+ feet of Colorado we get pretty heavy UV exposure. Never did work up any figures but I sold the spray outfit when I was through for a few bucks more than I paid for it and I think the chemicals cost me about $800 or less, can't remember now. Anyway it is time for a redo of the roof and with additions that have been added I do have a dilema and the final decision is not made yet. The whole experience does get talked about at family gatherings...especially when the beer is flowing and anything is funny!!Never saw any animals workin on the foam but I have had squirrels and racoons chew thru EPDM on other parts of the roof.I like your approach....now lets see your departure
here is a product for you to consider:
http://www.jm.com/roofing_systems/builtup/products/rs5035_nailboard.pdf
we've used it many times. it even comes with a vented foam base if you want to ventilate. (grooves are formed in the base of the sheets)
comes in a variety of foam thicknesses.
check with your local commercial roofing supplier. there are other brands out there.
if you go with EPDM, consider using wood sheathing instead of fibreboard. fibreboard turns to mush if it gets wet.
carpenter in transition
"...OP says his 1x6's are exposed inside, doesn't he? When you screw down your build up, whatever it is, doesn't it effect the inside of the finished house now?..."Yes, but these are supported by (exposed) 4x6s 24" o.c.- careful nailing will avoid pop-throughs.Bill