I had installed a for-mica counter in a laundry room. After six months it developed bubbles in two areas. I have never seen or heard of this before.
What causes the bubbles and what are the solutions to aviod this problem and to cure it?
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Bubbles under the 'Mica or in it?
It appears to be under the for-mica but without cutting through one cannot tell
I've seen this happen above a heat source such as a duct or dishwasher.
Also, where the counter is trapped between something-seems the part. bd base might shrink/expand or the opening might do the same-and the lam doesn't.
And of course there's the dry spot or trapping air under it on the initial install.
On occasion you can reactivate the glue by using a hair dryer or heat gun (be careful, not too much heat) or even an iron with something between it and the counter. Vicious rolling away from the bubble sometimes can move the air out and restick it. You can try this but may find you have to go back again.
edit: another cause might occur if you build the base and let it sit for enough time that some dumb #### eats his lunch on it or the homeowner decides to "use it" while you're away and carelessly uses spray and wash.
A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Edited 8/20/2008 12:21 pm ET by calvin
another cause might occur if you build the base and let it sit for enough time that some dumb #### eats his lunch on it or the homeowner decides to "use it" while you're away and carelessly uses spray and wash.
That sounds like a couple of interesting stories.
To the OP:
What did you use for a substrate?
I have seen some low in big box plywood used for counter tops. It almost always starts to delaminates. What appears to be a bubble is really a lot worse. No fix for that situation. I have built two new tops to replace HO built tops in the last three years. Both were built with HD or Lowes plywood,.. cause that is what they used on DIY. Network.
What do you guys think of the water based CC? I built a concrete form table on the weekend and ended up with a two bubbles. I was trying the water based for the first time, but in all honesty I suspect the problem was me. I was rushing and I couldnt stuff the whole assembly in my vacuum press.
Brad
I don't like it because it takes so long to set.
However, I've been the recipient of too many fumes and have pretty much used it entirely for the last 5 yrs.
I think you can count on double coating-at least a healthy coating- the p.b. substraight as it seems to soak in.
And you've got to love robins egg blue on your shirt rather than that tan color.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
thanks for the info. I doubt I will use that again.
Brad
Dave, the luncheon was a bunch of lowlifes having a pizza party-that one I saw.
The spray and wash was a complete surprise....A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Thats why the commercial millwork quality standards won't let you use ply as a substrate, and why the p/lam manufacturers usually won't warranty anything over a ply substrate. I've seen whole sheets come off.
Cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.
I've been building tops for 32 years. Been to more seminars than I care to think about.
I try not to watch those DIY shows on TV, but DW loves to get ideas from them, so they are always on. The last two to[ps I replaced were HO built from instruction off the web or just watching those same DIY shows.
It takes some degree of diplomacy to explain that it really wasn't the husbands fault that those tops fell apart, and not seem to be slamming the TV gurus :)
You seem like the right person to ask how to repair a delaminating edge on the front of a post form counter wioth a waterfall edge.
The top has a number of loose spots along its edge that I would like to try to fix for a customer. When you look at the edge, it looks like it ripples. I have no idea why it may have come loose in those spots. Is it possible to reglue these spots?
Heck , Super glue and clamp the area as needed
dusty
Look underneath the front edge of the top. Many of those custom edges are manufactured and applied to the slab edge. They are generally made from a vertical grade p-lam (thinner) and heat formed/pressed to a core that can then be applied to regular slab construction.
I do WilsonArt Perm-A-Edge tops and have never had one come apart on me yet. I haven't used any of the other edging systems out there, so I'm only vaguely familiar with them through the sales literature and articles I've read about them.
So, with that disclaimer, I would make a mirror image profile of the edge out of wood to use as clamping cauls. Then gently heat and lift the bad edge and swap under it with new cc. Be careful not to leave any cc boogers rolled up under the lifted area, and after the glue has set, clamp down using your profiled cauls. The contact cement should grab immediately, but the profile clamping cauls will insure that you get even pressure across the whole edge. I use this technique for tight radius corners builds and it has served me better than just using a j-roller.
If that doesn't fix it, find out who made the edging. They could have had a bad run of edging and your client was unlucky enough to have one built into their top. The manufacturer may offer to replace the edge or have a better fix for you.
The clamping cauls are a great idea, thanks.
Dave ,
You are right about the substrate being suspect , China ply , clean looking , cheap and full of Formaldehyde and unstable core , and lots of it .
I will not buy or use any C###a plywood products in my operation , my hope as the cost of shipping rises the cost will make the inferior products no longer desireable .
regards dusty
Dave,
I used 3/4" A-C ply good side up. did not use a water base CC.
thanks
A-C plywood will "drink" contact cement. It takes a couple of coats of cc to get an even bond.
Try just the warm iron method mentioned by someone else. You may not have an air bubble so much as a just a thin spot in the cc coverage. The heat will reactivate the glue and the pressure you aplly while using the iron will hold it down.
If it pops up agian, use heat to lift the p-lam and then use a spray type cc like 3M Super 77 to recoat both the substrate and the back of the p-lam. J-roll it back down from the center to the edge to avoid trapping any more air bubbles.
What causes the bubbles and what are the solutions to aviod this problem and to cure it?
Caused by a dry spot, or very nearly dry spot, when you applied the contact cement, or you just tapped some air under the p-lam when you applied it to the substrate, are two possibilities. There are are reason you can have bubbles show up sooner or later under p-lam, but those are the first on the list.
The solution is to take a heat gun and apply just enough heat to soften the cc under it and pell it back a little pass the bubble area.. Reapply contact cement and roll the p-lam bak down. That is the surest and most effective fix.
Other will be along to tell you some other foolproof and easier ways to do this.
Bubbles under laminate can result from several different things, almost all of them errors in the assembly. Here are some causes:
- Uneven cement application;
- Applying the laminate unevenly;
- Applying the laminate before the cement has dried completely;
- Dust or other foreign matter on the cement; and,
- The substrate being wet at the time of assembly.