Can somebody explain the basics of Cold air returns in a forced air system?
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What goes out gotta come back.
hot air doen't rise ... cold air sinks.
and that makes for a nice circulation of air.
and to get more hot air forced into that space ...
there's gotta be space ... to force it into.
and U don't wanna suck out that nice warm air ... so U "return" the cold air down low ... to make room for more hot air ... so it can cool ... and sink ... and get returned all over again.
in basements my hvac guy likes top and bottom returns ... for better seasonal movement. Open the bottoms in the winter and the tops in the summer. Blow in the good and suck out the bad.
edit to say by no means am I an expert in this field.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Edited 10/12/2008 9:57 pm ET by JeffBuck
Virtually every FA sysem I've seen has the return registers near the ceiling, with the heat coming from near floor level. This helps assure reasonable mixing of the room air.
Corporation: n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility. --Ambrose Bierce
virtually none of them here are set up like that.
certainly none of the older installs.
old style cold air returns are big holes in the floor covered with a big cast grate.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Here's my problem (I think), I went & installed a new filter today & took the Vac with me to do a little cleaning.
This is in the house we have been working on for the past 2 years. The guy that did the heat system was a Local who I have never done business with before.
I bought the Furnace (Goodmann) & he & his buds installed the system. It just never seems to have worked the way I expected. I have used the same furnace in houses with 800 more sq.ft & it all worked well.
Here is a photo of the area where the filter goes, the only place the cold air can come in is the smaller TJI bay on the right. the opening is 2 1/2 " by 23". The Bay on the right of the blue tape is closed off.
Theres more, but could this be part of the problem?
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your system is having to suck all the circulating air thru that 2 1/2" slot?I'd judge that to be a real problem - I don't need an engineer to tell that is a restriction limiting flow thru the entire system - where does the air enter the joist bay? - grill in the floor, I assume? - your picture is aptly labeled - "there's enough for everyone"
where does the air enter the joist bay? - grill in the floor, I assume? -
The joist bay is panned off & it picks up a cold air return that is panned off in a wall bay above the floor joist bay.
panned joists are a poor substitute for correct ductworkMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I am starting to find that out. This guy was the local expert, which I now find out does 'nt mean much!
"This guy was the local expert, which I now find out does 'nt mean much!"Next time get one that has, at least, stayed in a HolidayInn Express..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
I worked for three different heating and cooling contractors and we panned joist spaces for return air whenever posible.
lots of hvac contractors pan joists...
it doesn't make it good practiseMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I've seen it a lot, also. If it is convenient, works fine, I think. There may be code issues on occasion ... don't know if that has changed w/ new IRC. I think it has to be a 'clean' space. The static pressure loss is higher than metal duct, but it often may be way oversized, too.
"the only place the cold air can come in is the smaller TJI bay on the right. the opening is 2 1/2 " by 23". The Bay on the right of the blue tape is closed off."
You said the bay on the right is closed off. But you also said the air is coming through a 2 1/2 " by 23" opening.
That seems to be contradictory....
As soon as man does not take his existence for granted, but beholds it as something unfathomably mysterious, thought begins. [Albert Schweitzer]
Got my words mixed up, the small tji bay to the right of the blue tape is open to the cold air trunk line, the larger TJI bay to the left of the blue tape is closed off to the cold air trunk line.
Guess I shoud read what I write, another bad habbit.
I think you are correct in you assumption that the air handling unit is being starved for return air. As Jeff mentioned, or someone else mentioned, you need to have your supply and return air as nearly balanced as possible. A proper distribution system will have supply and return air ducts in each room that are close in size. For those homes with a single central return plenum it should be large enough to handle the total cfm output of the air handler.
Your supply side cfm should be roughly 1 cfm for every 1 to 1 1/4 sg. ft of floor space, if the unit was sized correctly. Duct sizing,type, and number of bends for supply air all need to be figured to be sure you are getting enough air to each room or area of the house, but without the proper return air going back to the ahu all you are going to do is geta lot of strtification or hot and cold spots.
Sounds like you got a bozo that knew how to install equipment, but knows nothing about system design.
Maybe Tim will come along and give you some suggestions for correctives.
Thanks Dave,
Your right on the Bozo part. Think we can have the system running the way it should. Were lucky it's a crawl space below so we can get to the slip shot ducting that was ran. Mostly flex was ran, and a poor job at that. Bend & unneed turns which should be easy to fix. Will add up the supply side this weekend & see how far off the system is.
We spent last weekend installing rigid insulation along the mud sill & rim board of the floor system. Working on getting the crawl nice & tight & over insulated!
Flex has probably improved a lot but we never used it because it would not maintain a consistant diameter. Don't know if that makes sence or not but it would collapse and the air flow was reduced.
Since you are just trying to get some improvement in your system performance' I'll throw a coulpe more "try this" things atcha.
Most flex duct install are terrible. I don't like it, but if it is installed correctly it can serve it's purpose, i.e. deliver air to each room.
While you are straightening out the mess try to strectch each run of flex as tight as possible. Eliminate droops and support the flex with two inch wide nylon straps stapled to the sides of the joist. Depending on the diameter you need to support the flex at no more than every four feet. Where the flex needs to make a ninety degree turn, cut it and install an elbow of the appropriate size. If the flex is crammed into the walls to attach to a register boot, take it off and extend the boot down to the flex. Agian, use hard pipe elbows where needed and be sure to use a mastic sealant on any rigid to rigid joints. And last know that "duct tape" is not good for duct work (I know NASCAR uses it, but it sux for duct work). Use a high quality foil tape any place you transition from flex to hard pipe or duct.
Your going to be down there awhile so take a couple of cans of spray foam with you and seal up the holes and drafty spots as you find them.
Hope you get it tuned up before the weather goes south on you.
Didn't read all the messages ... and I trust you've gotten a similar ear full, but I'm just makin' sure. If you didn't get an ear full on the flex duct ... you should have.
Mostly flex was run ... sure sign of a HVAC tradesman that doesn't really care about what he is doing .... and it's a sign that you likely aren't getting proper air flow!!! Especially when you also describe the flex as being poorly installed! Flex should be used ... albeit rarely. If he used flex where he could have used straight ... he was simply lazy (or stupid).
So your problem may be at both ends .... supply air restriction and return air inadequate. Restricted supply can also stress your heating system in that the heat exchanger (HX) may overheat a lot ... eventually leading to problems ... but also causing it to run inefficiently.
Edited 10/25/2008 9:33 am ET by Clewless1
Thanks for the input, Yeah we got hosed by the local HVAC Guy, Us being an out of towner. Thought we would give one of the locals a shot (not the first or last Mistake will make in our life time) Guys still in biz-ness & the locals think he's the Bomb!
Best part we e-mailed him a link to this & still waiting to hear back from him!
Think next time will do Hot water baseboard. Seems few HVAC guy around that do good work. All the new Cr@P on the market is just helping in dumbing down the trades. Not just Hvac but plumbing & electrical.
As to post getting Sideways here, if you been here long enough, you will find out it more the norm then not.
Here's a few photos of the Craftsmanship of this guy, I don't know who the Bigger Dope is, Me for not catching the hack , or him being the hack he is. At least he never got paid in full, but what he did get paid is about twice worth what they did & about the same as it's going to cost to clean up the mess & do it right.
The photo shows the big hole cut in the top side of the cold air return trunk line, the only way you can see it is if you place your head up in the TJI bays.
To Lazy to spend the five seconds to knock out a TJI block, just run the flex under the beam.
Will start rounding up hard pipe & start with one run at a time, going to add a few more lights in the crawl space to make it a bit smoother to work there. At least we got about 5' of headroom down there.
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glen... why did he cut a hole in the top of the duct ?
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is that so the bay will function as a return plenum ?Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Your guess is as good as mine!
It's just an open hole in the cold air trunk line about 12" down from the Furnace box that holds the blower fan. That hole has been sucking in 95% of the air. which would explain why there was little, if any air movement around the cold air return grills?
I still have the problem of not enough air getting inside where the blower fan is, as there is only a 2"x8" opening at that spot & I need to remove duct work & cut open the trunk line to get to that spot. I would take a picture of that area, but no way to get a photo (to tight).
When ever I questioned the Guy he kept telling me "Your at 10,200' what do you expect!"
I think everything is 12"-16" off where it should be.
I did not notice it until 2 weekends back.
Placed a temp plate over it Sunday & could hear a differance in the flow around the cold air grills. Think it's best we start taking apart his work & do it right. Think his supply & return trunk lines, both under sized.
Got a small mess on my hands!
Think the same guy is doing another system one block over on a new house. I will make sure I let the them know how well my system is working.
Did you hire the low bidder?
I agree with some of what has been stated by others about flex duct, panned returns and sealing ductwork. However, if panned ducting is done with attention to detail (like sealing the panning and gasketing the return duct to the joist bay being used), it is certainly acceptable. There is no getting around the fact that panning is less expensive than doing the same thing with duct and fittings.
The problem is that too many residential customers, whether homeowners or builders, only see the line item price.
An all metal system, sized right (ducting and load calculations), fabbed right, installed right, sealed and insulated properly (on the outside) costs a whole lot more than a flex system with a central return per floor. More often than not, the HVAC contractor that bids a system "done right" will not get the job.
Compounding the problems are contractors that have a performance based pay system that encourages further employee shortcuts to reduce the hours spent on the job compared to the hours bid for the job.
There are plenty of "well known" and "respected" hvac contractors in my area, and most of them do shoddy work. Unfortunately, hot or cold air can still be delivered by the most poorly installed systems, and the customer is none the wiser.
Unfortunately, these same general statements can be applied to many building trades contractors.
any general rules for ducting and load calculations? my 1880 house has very uneven heating and supply duct sizes are odd. small roon larger duct large room smaller duct.
Yes, there are "rules of thumb", but they vary per region and per house.
My close guess for cooling here won't work at all in Texas.
My close guess for heating here may not work so well in Maine.
Things like windows, which way the windows face, wall cavity insulation, attic insulation, skylights... etc all make an impact on the hvac load.
I have duct "guesses" for systems that are done right and "guesses" for those that want it cheap.
If your ductwork is that bad, you might want to consider tearing it out and starting over.
One place to start for load calcs is http://www.hvac-calc.com
You can buy a single home license for $50.
thanks, the house is in southern nh, i'm having difficulty getting an answer from my local heating guys.
Speaking only of the people I know here, there are a lot of "heating guys" that really don't know what they are doing. It is reasonable to extend that assumption to the field in general.
I have encountered plenty of customers that believe that HVAC "isn't rocket science" and need their low bid work fixed. Unfortunately, it costs lots more to fix it than to do it right the first time.
Common problems include oversizing equipment and taking shortcuts with the duct install to knock $$$ out of the price.
If a home has uneven heating or cooling, rest assured that there are problems with the ductwork. Sometimes, with open floor plans, the problems are created by the architect not allowing for the mechanicals.
Unsealed metal ductwork that is installed with skill will easily leak 10%.
Typical metal ductwork that is installed in a low bid residential system is much worse as far as leakage goes. I have seen 6" round elbows used as a takeoff for a supply run inserted in a 7" hole cut in the top of the ductwork.
Poor duct design that saves money on the bid compounds the problem due to internal friction in the duct.
The people that say "leakage is ok" because it leaks into the conditioned space do not realize that the leakage air is not controlled, and the air will not exit the furthest register in the system. If you have a 5 ton system with 20% leakage, you just lost 1 ton of capacity. There is your house with hot and cold rooms. The return ducting is just as important as the supply ducting. Simply put, you can't blow what you don't suck.
I have witnessed a few bad fittings at the furnace account for a 30% loss in airflow to the rest of the system- and this is in residential work. A lot of bad practices carry over to the commercial side, too. There is your house that gets the big furnace with the big blower to try and force the air down there... and the HP needed to run that big blower is a cubic function, so energy use goes up very quickly.
You will not get truly competitive bids without detailing a list of specifications for your project. The guy that bids $50 more than the other guy may deliver a much better or much worse product. Either will heat or cool, but one will work much better than the other. The customer does not know what they are paying for when comparing 3 line bids without a set of specifications.
The devil is in the details.
You can get a copy of ACCA "Manual D" which covers residential duct design. Understanding the pictures in the appendix will go a long way towards eliminating common duct shortrcuts. The biggest one is simply tapping the furnace plenum into the supply duct above... that shortcut eliminates a fitting (about $90), and costs 120 equivalent feet of duct. The proper fitting gets the equivalency down to 20 feet of duct.
Tract home projects are lost on a $5 difference between bids. The builder doesn't care because the subcontractor has to warranty it.
Edited 11/4/2008 6:39 am ET by danski0224
one of my friends is HVAC.... his ductwork, design, and equipment installation is all first class
anytime my customers want central air.. i recommend him.... if they go with him.. that is the end of my problems
if they balk at his price and want another bid, i have to get into a long explanation about the majority of HVAC contractors will always beat him on price.... and it is always at the expense of performance of the system
he gets a lot of high end commercial.. like hospitals and hotels where performance is the tail wagging the dogMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
No was not the low bidder.
The guy was a recommendation from the guys that lives next to where we built on both sides of the new construction. I had a moment of weakness because we were not using any of the local labor pool & the guy brought by his two young 3 year old sons. Money was not an issue.
I could have picked 4-5 guys that have done work for me in the past, drive the 125 miles to the site & knock it out in a weekend. My mistake, took way to long to get the job done . I think the problem was to many people never check their work & this guy is small time. Being 125 miles away I was not around to over see his work, & the only time I saw the guy was on weekends when he came by to get paid & we were under the gun to get what we were doing done. I must be spoiled as the people that I know here (in the Big City) do their job & don't need to be checked on their workmanship.
I also had a heat run in the master bath that only the boot was installed & the heat run was over looked, had to ask 2 times & wait 60 days before the guy came back & fixed that.
Should have know better as the first thing they did on day one was run the bathroom fans with plastic dryer vent material, like the stuff they sell @ K-mart. That was removed that same day & they thought I was the bad guy!
Well, some guys in the Big City need to be followed up on, too.
Just fixed a mess left by two "reputable and recommended" contractors.
Don't know what the deal is, everybody seems to be in a hurry!
Me, I would rather do the job Right, then have the Motto, "We do it Nice!, Cuse "We do it Twice!"
I'ts because of hours bid for the job, and the boss hounding you to git it done.
Won't even get into the company selling high end equipment and not sending the people that install it for training.
It takes time to set up top shelf multistage equipment and integrate it with zoning controls, humidifiers, etc... not to mention doing the duct right.
Some places do it thrice :)
Can't believe more people didn't jump all over the use of flex duct ... and some advocating 'making do'. If possible (access, money), I'd rip out as much flex and replace with real ducts sealed properly.
Also you described the filter downstream of the fan? seems odd, I think 'normal' is filter, then fan, then heat exchanger ... at least filter upstream of fan/motor.
Your pics aren't very helpful ... Sorry, no offense, dude. It's tough figuring out what will look right to another guy ... you know what it looks like ... we don't. I know it's an awkward space.
You are getting the message ... and so are we ... you have a messy install that really isn't doing a job very well. How is supply air getting to the second floor? Rigid duct chase in a closet (reasonable, normal)?
I've ranted about flex duct for years. Don't like it, and even the best installs reduce the system performance, so much that the cost saving of the "cheaper, easier to install material" is lost IMO.
Yes the best solution would be rip all out and do it right. However when I see a HO post that they are trying to straighten out a mess left by a contractor that won't fix his FUBAR, it tells me there are some economic restraints here.
They are up against the weather, and that may be a whole nother issue. Maybe getting this system fixed right will be a future project, but right now they need whatever helpful advice that can be given.
BTW, lighten up on Heck and IMERC. The OP started the fishing dialog.
Yeah ... I did, I hope (let up) ... didnt' realize how it got started.
JUST SAY NO TO FLEX DUCTS.
It's all good info ... the OP needs to sort it for what it's worth ... to his situation.
JUST SAY NO TO FLEX DUCTS.
I'll second that, but I'm afraid the stuff is here to stay.
Now all we have to do is try to teach them how to make the best install with a sorry product.
That is an endless challenge
did that....
on G8's project too....
shouldda been there to witness the whinning and temper tantrum....
the dude was like a spoiled rotton 2YO on sugar, steriods and who knows what else...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
best systems are sized for 100 % return
combination systems ( heat -A/C )
usually have high supply....low return
get a hold of a good hvac design manual
not all hvac contractors properly size or install... properly sized ductwork is far more expensive than minimally sized systems
Around here it's pretty standard to have low supply, high return. But here the heating season is much longer than the cooling season.
Corporation: n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility. --Ambrose Bierce
If you are in primarily a cooling climate (hot area) it makes most sense to have the return up high, and visa versa for a cold area where heating is what the system is primarily for.
For instance in the rocky mountain areas of mid and high elevation a well insulated house will rarely need an air conditioner so the system is primarily set up for cold weather operation with the return down low.
However, the towns that are slightly lower in elevation it becomes primarily a cooling situation and returns are up high.
It can also depend on the particular house and even particular room. If an entire house is set up with returns down low, but in the summer one room is unbearably hot it makes sense to move the return up high in that room if it doesn't adversly impact the cold weather performance.
Along the same lines, if your furnace runs at low speed all year to keep the air circulating (more even temps), it matters less where the returns are unless the system is working at max capacity.
Good building!
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
I thinkI have enough Cold air return grills, the question is when it gets to the furnace, where should the cold air enter the furnace!
The trunk line for the cold air supply enters the furnace by the blower motor which is below the filter, & the heat exchanger is in the next box over.
I have no idea of what I am looking at.Can't tell if this is an updraft, down draft, horizonatal unit.IN fact give us some idea of that the layout is.Single story, multiple? On slab, over crawl space, over basement?Where is the unit?Etc..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Horizonatal unit.
2 story house
over crawl space,
FAU is in the crawl space,
Also found an area in the cold air trunk line that is open, the photo here shows the trunk line for the cold air runs. The area above the blue tape, between the 2 Tji floor joists is open (top side). This is also in the crawl space.
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what more did you find???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I was bad, Was such a nice day on Sat. Went fishing. New HOT SPOT!
It's called the North Fork of Lake Creek.
Like fishing in a Barrel, 40 fish in under 2hrs.
Will get back to the system next weekend if the weather turns, if it's nice think will go back to the same place. It's part of the Mount Massive Wilderness area,right at the bottom of Indpendence Pass!
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I know that place....
know the private land (ajoining tracts) owner....
way better fishing...
next weekend it is....
or the weekend after that...
or after that even....
gotta have the priorities straight in all matters... fish first and worry about nothing ....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
see yur hill and raise ya mountain....
View Image
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
You need to see if you can get a hold of Heck?
Will have him do the Crown on the cabinets I have been putting off,
While we go hit the North Fork before it freezes over & they close the pass,which happens most times by the end of Oct.
will do....
give him a long list of things to do while we go fishin'....
I like it....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
hey dude....
ya busy???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I suppose I should have the wood split and stacked, the beer iced down, the coffee warmed up, and the grill ready too?
probably have to clean the fish before I cook 'em, too
sounds like you got the handle...
could get the laundry, house keeping and shovel the drive in yur spare time???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
OK on the laundry, that's how we got the CC last time...
as long as it isn't cleaned....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
we'll clean it later.
we clean the laundry we'll haveta give back those CC cards...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
then never mind on the laundry...
check...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
May I ask why you are cluttering this OP's dialogue w/ fishing and party messages? You can send private messages or even use e-mail.
Perhaps you should ask the OP.
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=111279.26
You are right ... Followed the thread ... doesn't make sense to me. IMERC asks 'what else did you find' to OP and off on a tangent a bunch of people go. Oh well. Seems that chat would be done 'offline' or outside of the OP.
that's the OP...
do you suppose the OP was up for a distraction and a little humor???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I'm looking for a good iron guy to fab up a sectional outdoor stairway. Plus railings.
Know of anyone?
several...
one very very good....
send plans....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
You guys need to stay on topic, someone's watching.
no problemo...
which topic shall we stay with???
HVAC hackmiesting...
salvaging HVAC install...
improving HVAC system..
viable materials use and installation..
thermodynamics...
home domestics...
culinary...
establishing priorities...
fishing...
finish/trim carpentery...
beer drinking...
coffee drinking...
natural terrain exploration...
snow removal...
iron fabrication...
getting off topic..
hotels...
sanity, retention or loss there of....
blackmail...
being watched...
addendum....
Piffin...
immortallity...
pre everything...
did I miss any???
did you forget where you are????
there's something for everybody.... it'd be tuff finding a thread that's any different....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Edited 10/25/2008 2:30 pm by IMERC
We usually cover those topics in two or three posts.
>>>did you forget where you are????
are you kidding, I've been here since Piffin was a very old man...
since it's time imoratal now...
figure it just slipped yur mind...
did you mean when Piffin was a "young man"???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
it just dawned on me....
there's older than very old??????
WOW!!!!!
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
now yer getting it...
I'm not 'watching' just got confused. :) No offense intended
Edited 10/25/2008 2:10 pm ET by Clewless1
It's all good. It turns out that some of us in this thread actually know each other and have been to this house.
But really, this is how it goes here, again, part of the charm.
No offense taken.
And you gave good advice.
Now I gotta tell IMERC he can talk about whatever. :-)
I'm struggling with those right now. Just built a model outta a real stiff paper.
Imagine 3 curved 90 degree sections with 3 treads/risers per section, 30 degree steps, 7.5" risers, 36" wide. Each section has a central 4" pipe to which the steps will be fastened, the pipe sticking up another riser height above the top step of each section (for attachment purposes).
Then 3 straight sections of 2 steps of a 9" tread and same height riser.
Finally, one straight section of one step only.
From the top, goes the single step. This will be mounted off and equal in height to the current deck. Then goes one curved section. Curving down and to the right. Then a two step section. Then another curve. And another two step. And then the last curve. And then the last two step.
When its done, it should stand 1" proud (without needing attachment to the brick) while it meanders around a 16" brick veneered column.
I'd like to have them built in these sections so they can be more easily be powder coated and transported. But the change in angles of the outside skirts where they transition coupled with a suitable connection strategy have me scratching my head in doing the pictures.
Not to mention the railings.
Hey, Mike Smith or Blue: Can I draw this up in Chief?
powder coat we do too....
cake and pie...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Got someone that can roll that outside skirt? A channel if necessary?
rolling and folding we do to....
View Image
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
What part of the shop do you make the flex duct? :)
nyuk
we don't....
we farm that out to yur crew....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Now THAT's funnnnnyy!!!
funnnnnyy?????
I was serious.....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Man, A guy slips away for few hrs & gets back & the Shid hits the props!
Never guess what we did today......View Image
took pictures....
me and heck have been trying to hold the fort down....
hurry back....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
and if it was fishing "we" didn't include me and Heck....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Think here on out, going to need the Ice AView Imageuger,
getting thick above 11K.
Don't tell anybody but you can still find fish here.....
Edited 10/26/2008 12:19 am by G80104
you listening???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I hear my stomach growling...
The Big Guy was bye this weekend,
Got me back in order.
Seems Lake Countys finest Tin Knocker must be Dyslectic. Seems he zigged when he should have zagged.
The Cold air return trunk line was installed 180 degrees off what it should have been.
Marty took it apart, spun it 180, reinstalled & started tighting up the long list of 1/2 azzed #### Jr. did.
We were going to go fishing (still many hrs of Day light left), one thing missing ,was somebody on the KP duty, It was a dirty job but somebody had to do it!
View Image
but we did go hunting...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
,View Image
that looks like the place....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
did you take pics of that octapuss????
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Good to hear you guys are getting the kinks worked out. I had a trip to Ok to take care of, just got back.
Hope all is well!
Should have a few older Ski Doos to play with, along with some Crown (Moulding),not Royal to do!
So, as Bob Barker used to say on the Price is Right, "Come on Down!" (or in your case up), Soon as we get some snow, should be Fun, Real FUN!
Everything is good, went to visit a friend. Now will be playing catch up for a few days.
I just heard on the radio about a big snow storm coming tonight on the western slope.
Let the games begin!
Likely ... I'm a little slow, sometimes. Always wanting to take care of the job at hand, first. Much too serious at times. :) see I can smile
G8 has worked on that house of his for over 2 years against a BI/AJA self anointed dictatorship who enjoys making other's lives miserable and rewrites the rules from day to day...
he has spent virtually every weekend, day off, holiday and vacation on it... on his own with help from his two boys that have/had no construction knowledge...
and we're not even gonna mention going up against the resident all phases of construction family/click/nightmare to include the inspectors and building department... as in all the trades and services are inter-related as in blood and or marriage...
the HVAC clown is part of the click...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
no problem....
you got a topic you wanna toss into the ring???
you hunt this year???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
BT is all about tangents, part of it's charm.
or here's a chance.... 111279.21
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
At least dinner was grand, Wild Rice & a few of .....View Image
Dang, you sure know how to live...
and last winter the snow got higher than the shovel...
we'll get the guy next door to loan ya the super industrial snower chucker....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
which explains all the snow on G8's drive.
EVERY room needs a supply and RETURN.
Thanks,
Were good in that department, all rooms have cold air returns except the bathrooms. We put infloor heat in all baths, Nice warm floors!
Bathrooms and kitchens and garages should never have a return.
Point well taken.
With intent to continue this discussion, is there a rule of thumb concerning the % of cold air return to the area of hot air outlets?
There may be, I only know from personal home ownership that each room needs its own supply and return. My old home worked fine, bedroom doors could ,be closed and still be warm, without cutting 2 inches off the bottom of the doors. I had REAL duct work, not 2x4 and sheetrock chases. That house was built "Right" and my family enjoyed the hot air system.
Try getting a HVAC guy to do returns in all rooms (even more than one) in S. California and they'll think you've gone batty.
I had to go thru three of them before I found a guy that would at least give me three for the whole house (3 floors). And then, he jammed a 14" flex into a soffit so tight and bound up that air could hardly pass. He wouldn't change it. Insisted it wasn't necessary.
And believe me, they do have near freezing weather there sometimes.
When you really think about it, it truely gets sad. It's not like you don't want to pay for having the job done right. Job done right doesn't seem to be in the game plan. Our national economy should change the tune of alot of contractors in all the trades.
the ideal is 100 % return
but that assume a closed system
so you look at the structure and make some assumptions ...is it a tight house, or a leaky house
you don't want a negative pressure... you will suck air in from outside... often from leaks you can't see
so you make the suppl air a little more than the return air to give the house a slight positive pressure, better to lose a little air than suck outside (cold..... wet, or hot.....wet ) air in
hvac design manuals give formulas for sizingMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
You should post your Q and pics over at http://heatinghelp.com/ as well.
They will have a lot of fun with this.