Our framers just called us with a major “uh oh!”
Ok, we have our first big problem with our home renovation. The rough carpenters just started to frame the walls of our addition and realized that our foundation walls are off by 11″ in one direction (width).
My husband is already heading home to verify that the dimension really is off and to try and figure out what we’re going to do if it is. The real problem if this is true (which it probably is) is that we already have our trusses which will now be 11″ too short from side to side.
Our UBuildit consultant is meeting my husband out there soon to offer his advice but I was just wondering what you guys thought.
We tried to avoid this situation altogether because our lumber yard told us to be sure to ask our rough carpenter to come out and measure our foundation before we finalized the order for our trusses. They said it is somewhat common that the foundation is not poured exactly to print. By having the carpenter measure, we could confirm that we ordered exactly the right trusses for our project.
Well, we asked the carpenter and said he measured the foundation and that everything was correct according to the print, so we went ahead and ordered the trusses. Now we don’t want to jump to conclusions and assume that he either measured wrong or did not actually measure which is why my husband is going out there right now.
So my first question is this, is there any way to use trusses that are 11″ too short and still be ok? Or is there another way to work around this at all. Or does it mean we just have to order new trusses and accept the fact that our addition will be 11″ wider than we originially had on the plans?
Secondly, if we have to order new trusses, who bears the cost? Does the framer pay since he confirmed the measurements when they weren’t actually correct? Do we bear the cost since we are the general contractor and are ultimately responsible? Or is it fair to try and recoup some money from the Foundation contractor since they measured wrong when pouring our walls?
We don’t want to play the blame game because it was an honest mistake by all of us but on the other hand our trusses cost us a lot of money to just throw away and order new ones out of our pocket. Just wondering what you guys thought?
Thanks,
-Kacy!
Replies
Welcome to the world of "being your own GC".
Did the framer's contract have any clauses holding him responsible for verifying dimensions? My guess, if you try to get him to eat the truss cost, he'll walk off the job, and you'll end up not only with bad trusses, but also without a framer.
Is there a way to modify the foundation to bring it back into line? Have you called the mason to tell him something doesn't look right? Sounds like the mason may be at fault more than the framer, but without all the details, it's hard to say.
I think it'll end up being a matter of weighing the cost of new trusses against the cost to modify/redo the foundation work, and seeing if the mason and/or framer are willing to take some responsibility. Don't count on it though.
Bob
I don't think it's possible to bring the foundation back in line. It's off 11" and it's a poured wall. Is the wall even that thick?
We think what happened is the foundation contractor measured from the outside surface of the existing basement wall to the outside of the new wall (supposed to be 28' 9") When really they should have measured from the outside of the new wall to the inside of the existing basement wall. I'll attach a picture for reference.
I think you're right about the framer. It wasn't in the contract at all. So there's no way they'd pay it. Although it really sucks that we trusted him (if that's what it turns out to be after my husband checks, I'm still holding out a little hope that maybe it was just a misunderstanding and there's no mistake at all). We really like the framing company too so we don't want to screw them either.
It's just going to really hurt to swallow that cost...
Here's another picture with lines to show what I'm talking about.
The white line shows what was measured to be 28' 9". From the outside of the new wall to the outside surface of the existing basement wall.
The red line shows what dimenion should be 28' 9". But in reality it is 28' 9" plus the width of the wall itself.
Any chance you could re-post that drawing as a JPG?That's way tooo big of a file for guys like me that are on dialups.
In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot. [Mark Twain]
for some reason it opened right quick for me..I am still crawling at 24.6...I didn't see the size in time, but it really loaded fast.Try it.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Restoring, Remodeling, Reclaiming The Quality..
Sorry, I didn't realize adding those lines made it so big. But I can't change it right now. I don't have the right program at work to convert it from a bitmap to a .jpg file.
Maybe if I have time later!
Thanks for your input though! We might look into calling the truss company to see how we can work around it.
-Kacy
O.K., maybe I was a bit off here- I thought the trusses were too LONG. Now I'm assuming they're too SHORT?Making trusses "longer" can be challenging, but it can be done. Again, I would encourage you to call the truss company and discuss the problem with them. We have to pull rabbits out of hats all the time. Worst case scenario - Buy new trusses and advertise the old ones in the paper. You should be able to recoup about half your money.
If Barbie is so popular, why do you have to buy her friends?
If they call the truss company immediately, is it possible that they could stop the job before any material gets cut and assembled? That way the actual damage would be having to re-design the trusses, and whatever the opportunity cost is for having the truss plant's schedule disrupted. Is that your phone I hear in the background? ;-)
-- J.S.
"If they call the truss company immediately, is it possible that they could stop the job before any material gets cut and assembled?"
That would have been ideal. But if I understood correctly, they already have the trusses on site.
I didn't work my way to the top of the food chain to eat vegetables.
I was just waiting for this. 4 yrs. ago I took over a Ubuild
nightmare. Welocome to be your own GC. 101. Kick the ubuild to the curb . cut your losses now
" Kick the ubuild to the curb . cut your losses now"
Thanks, but it's not me with the problem.
When all else fails, read the instructions.
.
I've seen arguments here about how plumb is plumb enough, but I suppose tilting the walls in 5-1/2" on each side would be a little much.
is that what they call a modified a frame? larryhand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
Gambrel. Lower pitch 209:12, according to my calculator.
If only this were modern architecture -- you could put one wall 11" out of plumb. ;-)
-- J.S.
Or put both walls out of plumb by different amounts and use it as a music room. Acoustically, it will be better if the walls aren't parallel.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
With that ridiculous reply of yours; are you called Dunc ,or DUNCE (with an E on the end)
May the bird of paradise fly up your nose.
May an elephant caress you with his toes.
May your wife be plagued with runners in her hose.
May the bird of paradise fly up your nose.
i don't see anyone but marie eating this ..
so.. my guess.. assuming they still meet setback.. they go to the building inspector..
and ask to move the frame in to the inside of both concrete walls.. they can epoxy in new foundation sill bolts... then .. after it's framed they build a false wall on the outside of the existing concrete foundation...sheathing to the outside..
the interior wall will be the bearing wall.. the exterior wall will be a curtain wall
View Image
this is like joe carola's solution only with out the 2x8 studs
couple benefits.... super insulation... dramatic window and door openings
at this point i don't think there will be a less expensive fix.... but the blessing of the BI will be neccessary...
and the loss of the interior space will be the ultimate costMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I just read post # 48 addressed to her. Doesnt look like shes comming back .
What I wanted to say was that looking at the pics , shes not encroaching any setbacks . Looks more like shes in the country than an edition.
edit;
Wow , she did come back , but did not read behind her . Ive never see this happen.
Im also confused as to whether the building is bigger or smaller since her last post she said the trusses are too long now . Its a simple matter of adding footage to a permit and charging accordingly.
Tim Mooney
Edited 2/13/2005 10:50 am ET by TIMMOONEY52
Edited 2/13/2005 10:53 am ET by TIMMOONEY52
Tim-52,
Yeah, she read 'behind', see her comment on understanding.
I think the 'long' comment was a brain fart, since everything else in her post talks as if she has short trusses.
"Short trusses." Hmmmn, that sounds like the punchline of a joke.
SamT
i don't know... i 've seen some of her other threads..
i'm thinking this GC thing may be a big eye-openerMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I pretty much figured that she was not encroaching setbacks, but there is no way to tell that from the photos because they do not show those invuisible things we know as property lines. It would not be uncommon here to have the side lot line just to the left of the driveway in, and the new outside wall of the house only fifteen feet from it, which would be the max for a side lotline setback. We have fifty and seventy five setbacks from center of roadway, and 75' to 250' setbacks from the shoreline, but only 15' to side or rear lotlines.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
kacy_house.jpg
Look at that pic.
Your set backs are a little "big " , but pretty normal. Most of the state hyways here have a 50 feet right of way. 25 from the center of the street . We have an additional 25 to the building line which is 50 over all from the center of the street. Our sides are 8 feet and back is 25 . Ive heard of 25s to the side and 50s on the back and 50s on the front which are "big"
As we look at this photo and another which was the big one she posted , there doesnt appear to be a hard surface driveway. From the pic I posted shes in the middle of 100 feet one way or another which is guess , but it still looks kind of rural and undeveloped. In the first pic there was a house behind this house at somewhere btween 3 to 500 feet . If you look , the grass isnt mowed or any improvements to a yard till you see the back houses grass which is contained close to the house.
Tim Mooney
I can't see the picture you refer to, but I remember all the open space all around from photos here and in other pictures of hers in various threads. But the lack of any buildings means nothing with regards to where the lot lines exist. I have lived plenty of places where vacant lots exist between houses, often because somebody bought more than one lot to increase their hopldings. In other places, the developer is required to maintain open greespaces. I'm not trying to be argumentativer. Just pointing out that you cannot tell where a lot line is without a plat. The lines are very often not where it appears that they should be. On one permit app, I had to get a survey because a neighboring owner stated that he owned a line of trees and "Doesn't it seem right that those trees in that straight line wouldbe the property line?"Wriong he was. I was placing the line at about 12' over past the treeline based on my reading of the plat, but the survey showed that the line was more like twenty feet onto what he considered his.I can think of several places in Colorado where the original town lots were 25' wide and 75' to 100' deep. The old-timers would buy one, two, three, four, or more lots next to each other and keep them separate or re-combine them.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
You are right . You cant tell with out a plat thats true. Im not arguing either .
I was just pointing out how the pics look .
I bought 1 1/2 acres a couple of years ago right smack in town. I wanted to build two houses on it so I found pins on one side and measured off . It went further than a fence that had been there for years. I ignored the fence and drove stakes with ribbons. I had went two properties over and found the common section post , so I knew it was right enough to set those stakes in this mans yard. The stakes fell about 4 feet in on his sodded lawn! He was bad upset ! He told me what for but didnt move my stakes. I wasnt going to use the property as it was just in the set backs. I told him I would stay back from it and didnt need the land for the houses would be rentals. He got p^ssed all over again when I told him that. I couldnt talk to him past that point.
He hired a surveyor at his own expense to fight that four feet past the fence. When his man was done , there was a misatake of 2 feet that didnt exist and he gave it to this man ! Trouble was he lost 1 more foot on my side due to my error , so now it was 5 feet ! Then he still had his distance plus two feet measured on his other side. He had owned part of a cow pasture all these years as his line was moved past the other fence.
Tim Mooney
Yah, you got me ready to tell other stories now, but we're getting off topic.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Come on guys, were 80 clicks into the thread, lets here some stories!
http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=54135.1let's move over
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
hube... stop pickin on dunc.....
it was a perfectly legitimate solution.. marie wanted us to think outside the box...
dunc did exactly that... wasn't much of a box thoug, was it ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
One fine day I was late to catch a plane,
The cab driver said.. "we'll make it just the same",
A speed-cop made it with us, and as he wrote out the ticket,
I stood by politely waiting for my change.
Chorus.... may the bird of para..... etc, etc.,,,,
* E
Edited 2/12/2005 6:47 pm ET by Hube
Think I got it now. My cyphering was off,they gained 11inches instead of losing it. Sorry Blue, for incorrectly correcting you in a previous post.
I didn't do it....the buck does NOT stop here.
Kacy,Going by what your saying where the 28'9" wall is pulled from the existing house and the trusses running that way which is perpendicular to your existing rafters. Your trusses should be sitting on top of the existing wall which for now I'll say is 3-1/2", so therefore your trusses should've been ordered at 29'1/2".Now that you have them one way to fix the problem and use the short trusses is to come in from your outside wall 3-1/2" which would make them sit on the existing wall which they should be. What that does is it shortens up that part of the room 3-1/2" and gives you a 3" shelf (allowing for 1/2" sheathing) on the foundation and gives you an 8" shelf (not counting siding) on the other short foundation.I've attached a drawing.BTW, It's not up to the framer to go out and look to see if the mason has the correct measurements it's up to you as the GC even if he said he would it's still your responsibility because your ordering the material. Did the framer give you the lumber list because I never let anyone do a lumbers list for me whether I'm paying for it or not.I hope this helps so far because you do have options.Joe Carola
Not positive, but I think their trusses are to installed perpendicular to how you have them shown. Check out my post at
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=54025.38
I think they will go front to back, likw the existing house.
In my first post I suggested bringing the wall in 3-1/2" and having a shelf on the foundation with the trusses sitting on the existing wall and foundation but if you don't like the shelf idea you can frame that wall with 2x8's and still slide the trusses in the 3-1/2" you need to sit on your existing wall and foundation but you would have to use extension jambs for the windows but at least your trusses will work.Joe Carola
Changing the exterior walls thickness like this is my first thought for correcting the difficulty. I sure would like to see a copy of the plans they were going by to study out here. Maybe we could catch other things about to come up...Another possible salvation for this would involve changing the exterior from the greek style to having a skirt set in as theychange from first floor to second floor, but I don't think that would go here. better to re-order trusses and sell the old at whatever is offered.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I am guessing that the front foundation wall in the photo is 11" further from the parallel back wall than it should be? The wall is 12" thick? It sounds like the wall was poured on the wrong side of the line. If this is the case either the guys who set up for the pour were wrong or whoever laid out the marks were wrong. I am guessing that the trusses are going in the same direction as the existing roof? If they are then a possible solution [ obviously chech everything with your inspector ] would be to frame a bearing wall in the basement to carry the 1st floor wall at the correct meaurement. This way nothing is out of wack to far. I am guessing that the wall would be sitting on the exposed part of the footing for the poured wall. After everything was framed you would just need to cover the exposed 11" foundation wall sticking out the front. Maybe some decorative stone? Peter
Peter, that is somewhat the solution I'd be thinking about too.
First, I'd offer the most obvious solution to the foundation contractor.....come in, remove the existing wall, then pour the proper wall in the proper location. In lieu of doing it right, I'd negotiate for them to pay whatever costs were involved in making the trusses fit.
Of course it remains to be seen who's mistake this really is, so there's no sense speculating any further.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Peter,I think that the new foundation should've been sticking past the existing foundation and wall assuming 2x4 3-1/2" so that the new wall will line up with the existing wall giving the new foundation outside to ouside measurement 29'1/2".You know, she said in one of her posts to me that she was using 2x10's for the floor joists but I don't see any pockets in the foundation for a dropped girder. Putting a flush girder doesn't make sense and if she's running the girder perpendicular off the house with the joists running parallel to the house there's no pocket for it. I see a little hole in the one picture but it doesn't look deep enough for a girder. This drawing is where I think the foundation should be.Joe Carola
no batter boards huh
First things first - Your Husband is on his way to check it out. Wait until you know for certain you have a problem before you try to solve it.
Second - Based on your picture, I doubt the trusses have to line up with anything existing. So you'll probably be able to use them, but may have to modify them somehow.
Call the truss company, explain the situation, and see what they suggest. They have engineers that deal with this kinda stuff every day. You may have to cantilever them 5 1/2" both ends and shorten the overhangs or something along those lines.
Trying to blame the framer isn't likely to get you anywhere. If you ordered the trusses, and you're the GC, you have no one to blame but yourselves.
If you're up for a little comic relief, try reading Spec House from Hell.
And don't let it get to you. This is probably only the first of a series of problems you're going to have to deal with.
First of all..Don't worry until there is something to worry about!!
Secondly..this isn't as bad as you may think it is right now..You can most likely still use the trusses..you may have to do some sort of modified framing to make them workable..but there is always a solution...
I'm assuming this is a single story addition..if so, then the trusses are spanning across the foundation perpendicular to the existing roof framing (?) That being the case, you may have to add a bearing wall to pick up the trusses instead of using the existing sidewall of the house as the bearing point...
I do have a bone of contention with the architect..never dimension anything from an inaccessible point. Giving a foundation dimension off the inside face of the existing is ridiculous...You have to make dimensioning somewhat idiot proof...
Review your plans for any more of these hidden dimension points...Put yourself in the contractors shoes and think "where do I hook my tape to?"
I do have a bone of contention with the architect..never dimension anything from an inaccessible point. Giving a foundation dimension off the inside face of the existing is ridiculous...You have to make dimensioning somewhat idiot proof...
Very good point!
I'm sure you realize this by now ....
but you and the husband are going to have to start spending alot more time at the site checking on each and every detail.
The footer layout shoulda been checked. The footer final dimensions should have been verified as correct.
The foundation layout should have been checked. The foundation final should have been verified.
You shouldn't have to drive over to measure to see what ya got ...
You both should already know.
The framer shouldn't have measured off the block. You two should have measured the foundation and ordered the trusses.
Better start now. Sounds like this can be tweaked one way or another ...
and that's if it's off at all.
But the best defense is a good offense!
Gotta be proactive Gotta check everything yourself.
I grew up remodeling. A line I heard time and time again from my Dad was ...
If I didn't build it I don't know it's square .. or plumb .. or level ...
He didn't mean only he was "perfect" ... he meant only after seeing it with his own two eyes did he know if it was right or not.
I actually got in trouble back in trade school for saying that ...
we had to build little walls to work off of that semester. All our roof framing was to be built on top ... the instructor said Don't waste time, just build of the last class's layouts ...
So I let slip out ... If I didn't built it .. it ain't square.
He got all pissed because he did the layout last year!
I told him if my grade depends on things being square ... I'm going to check.
Your grade depends on it! So U being the GC ... you gotta check.
Mistakes happen.
all the time. Catching and fixing them quick is the sign of a good GC.
or as Dad would say ... all carpenters make mistakes ...
the good ones can hide them!
There's probably a fairly easy solution to this one ....
but still let it be your wake up call.
Hope ya got a free one ...
most of my life lessons have cost me money!
Jeff
and don't let the subs make ya feel guilty about "checking their work" ... it's your job.
Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
Who is Ubuildit and what service do they offer?
Kc, your problem is not that big of a deal.
Some would love to have the project grow by 11''. You won't have to build new trusses, but you will have to do some alterations in the design.
blue
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Blue, I thought they lost 11 inches. Seems the framer shoulda caught that on day 1. Guess he does'nt check for square or nuttin'. So you loose 11 inches somewhere,make sure it is'nt the bath.
I didn't do it....the buck does NOT stop here.
She said this, "The rough carpenters just started to frame the walls of our addition and realized that our foundation walls are off by 11" in one direction (width)."I just figured she was talking about the sills and it was just a typo or whatever you want to call it but if the framer has the deck down and is on the walls and just caught it then he must be a real winner. If he didn't do the lumber list I'd like to know who did. I 'd like to know what the plans say about the trusses landing on the existing wall. It would be nice if she can post a picture of the plans.Joe Carola
As a GC, with a typical boilerplate contract, I would be eating this one.
I've read the U-buildit thread with some interest. Where were they when this was going on?
I think you need to sit down with them and talk about how they vet their subs.
I've built a few houses where the Architects or engineers did some weird dimensioning, but, it's something I've learned to watch out for.
My concern with outfits like Ubuildit is they tend to front for the bottom feeders that need some outside help to stay busy, despite all the retoric about verifying business history and their financials. (I'm not familiar with them specifically, but their service is nothing new).
Despite the chirpy testimonials of their rep who weighed in here a couple of days ago, I remain pessimistic.
As to your problem, I think you're being too nice and you're going to have to toughen up. Other mistakes of this magnitude may arise during the course of your project so if you're ging to play GC, you better prepare thicken your skin and be prepared to lay some groundwork for your tradesmen.
It's taken me several years to develop a good stable of sub-contractors and those subs and I both mutually respect and recognize our expectations and expected level of craftsmanship.
Your foundation problem is correctable, as a couple of posters have pointed out. But whatever that correction costs you, chalk it up as tuition.
It's your hard-earned money you're spending....make the recipients of it earn it!
Yeah, I'm hoping the UBuildit Rep. posts into this thread to let us know how they can offer help with a situation like this.
Depending how the trusses are made if you went with 2x8 walls you might have to add a 2x4 plate so that the overhang would clear the top of the 2x8 plate.
Here's a bad drawing of a truss so don't laugh to hard.
What you're suggesting may work. Don't know without getting exact dimensions. In general, I've found that you can almost always live with 2" of bearing on the bottom chord of the trusses. This generally required that the top chord be birdsmouthed a bit. If you need to use less than 2" of bearing, it's still often possible. But that's when you have to drag the engineer into play and the trusses generally require some reinforcement at the heels.
Money can't buy happiness. But it sure makes misery easier to live with.
Boss,If she ordered the trusses at 28'9" and they slide them in on the existing wall and foundation and use a 2x8 wall like I was telling her the trusses would have full 3-1/2" bearing on both ends with 4" left over on the 2x8 top plate. I was just thinking to add a 2x4 on both ends which still give her 3-1/2" bearing to raise it if the bottom of the truss overhang would hit the outside top plate of the 2x8.I'd like to see her floor plan and see if that outside dimension on that wall says 29'9" instead of 28'9". According to her she has 28'9" from the outside wall to the existing house so since they followed the exiting house with a 12" foundation that would give her 29'9". That small foundation wall should've been sticking past the existing house 3-1/2" so that the new walls lined up with the existing walls and the outside measurement should've been 29'1/2" and that's what her trusses should've bee at so that they were bearing on the existing house wall and foundation.Joe Carola
If the trusses are 11" too short, framing 2X8 walls would only gain her 7". (3.5" on both sides)
I wouldn't have turned out the way I was if I didn't have all those old-fashioned values to rebel against. [Madonna]
I'm lost now! roof trusses or floor trusses? lol. And the new roof will parallel the existing roof line, correct? So with too short trusses,will the roof plane now? confused.
I didn't do it....the buck does NOT stop here.
I believe they are roof trusses. In another thread with numerous photos, there was one shot of their pile of roof trusses.
Edited 2/12/2005 9:47 am ET by steve-o
Edited 2/12/2005 9:48 am ET by steve-o
She has before and after shots and it shows the new roof running perpendicular to the existing roof. Hope I copied these righ.http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/at.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&guid=71EFC457-EBC9-444D-94F8-EF9FF91C8E98&frames=nohttp://forums.taunton.com/n/docs/docDownload.aspx?guid=16B98AD5-3E05-413D-9CD1-A06C1BC10948&webtag=tp-breaktimeIf her plans call for 28' 9" from outside of the new foundation to the existing foundation and wall then the other small foundation to the outside should've been 3-1/2" bigger assuming the existing walls are 2x4 so outside of new foundation to the outside of new small foundation should measure 29'1/2" and since the trusses run that way the trusses should be 29'1/2" so that they sit on the existing wall and foundation.Joe Carola
Edited 2/12/2005 5:40 pm ET by Framer
"If the trusses are 11" too short, framing 2X8 walls would only gain her 7". (3.5" on both sides)"If they use a 2x8 wall on the long outside wall which measures 28'9" to the existing wall and that's what the trusses measure. What they need to do is slide the trusses in on the top of the 2x8 plate 3-1/2" and that would slide them in 3-1/2" on the existing wall and foundation and new foundation and they could still use a 2x4 wall on the new foundation which would give them an 8" shelf which I noticed in her picture of an after shot of the new home that shelf could be buried in the porch so the trusses will still work and she's not changing the size of her addition.It's just that if the plans called for 28'9" from outside of the new foundation to the existing foundation and wall she would've had to add 3-1/2" for the new wall on the small foundation to line up with the existing wall making the total with of the addition 29'1/2" which the trusses should've been.Joe Carola
This is off subject, but what program did
you use to create those drawings?
Butch,I'm just using Paint.Joe Carola
Wow, learn something new every<day, didn't
know you could do that w/paint <G>
KC,
You're asking about floor trusses, right?
The outside foundation (the concrete basement wall) looks like it may be 12". Is that correct?
Slide the trusses into the house either 3 1/2"(minimum), or 5". If 3 1/2" frame a bearing stub wall and block the joists, if 5' face the joists with a 2x band.
Put a 2x4 bearing stub on the other end. You won't need to stub the existing old floor. Sheath the floor. Frame the walls. Insulate the stub walls before siding/sheathing.
Get the roof truss measurements right. Know what is going to bear where in the old part before you order them. Your bearing is obviously inside the existing wall. Talk to your framer and your Boss Hogg early in the game.
SamT
I am late getting to this one after just having been 26 hours without power from a storm up here.
So these comments may have already been covered -
but my first one is that unless your jurisdiction is extremely lenient, there is no way that you can prceed to build a structure larger than already permitted without going back through the permit process again, and shutting the job down in the meantime.
it sounds to me like this is all in the lap of the foundation guys, unless the plans they had were sloppily drawn so as top be unclear - say which side of the wall a dimension string hatches to. Next Q, did you yourself confrim the dimmensions before paying the concrete sub? That is part of your job as GC - to see that the work was properly done before paying for it.
As a GC. I ALWAYS double check the layout of a form before it is poured. Even I can miss an error - like last year, on the placement of a cellar window. The dim given for to center of window was applied as to edge of window instead. It didn't hurt anything so we let it go.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
MARIE!I'm really suprised that nobody else mentioned this, but I really strongly suggest that you contact your local officials to see what will be required to be able to change the size of this structure. I know of several instances where it was required to be torn down and built as permitted. I hate to alarm you if this won't bbe a problem in your town, but better to know now instead of later. The cost of rebuilding the crete walls will be small compared to re-building the whole thing!There was a thread heere maybe half a year ago, where a builder had his fgoundation slightly within the town setbacks from the curve of a rod out front. the inspector had not clearly failed him but simple wrote something like Proceed at your own risk on the inspection report card.After house was all built, the builder could not sell it because the banks could not carry paper on a house that the survey turned out to show as illegaly built.In some jurisdictions, you could get a provisional go-ahead while paperwork is done, in others, they would simply ignore the problem. In areas where setbacks are supreme, you would have a tremendous problem...While I remain sceptical of Ubuildit, I am not turning you out to the wolves. We can help you best in this forum if you let us help Ubuildit do their job ( some here will laugh at that - why should we do freee what they are getting paid for?) by posting a copy of your plans and look at what you plan ahead instead of after the fact. you could end up with a list of things to check and to look for as things proceed that way
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin, everyone is tossing up the warning flares, but the last word from KC was that she was going home to find out the exact dimensions and see if the problem actually existed.
We're still waiting for the numbers.
I don't see this "problem" as any thing "serious" at this point. Yes it will take a few extra bucks, but there's a good chance that one of the subs will foot the bill (I'm thinking foundation guy).
You do raise the one serious issue...that of setback. A quick call to the Building inspector will usually get those questions answered.
One thing for sure, I certainly wouldn't put my faith and trust in some "ubild it wrong" guys hands...
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Blue,
Near as I can tell, The error is in the short connecting walls being too far to the center of the original structrue, leaving the outside newest wall in the permitted location, but I can't tell from what I've seen ereported here.I agree that other than cost, it is all fixable. The decision will have to be made HOW.
And before I blamed the foundation guys ( though they are truly infamous for careless errors, I'm sure we could do a whole thread knowcking them for this kind of crap) enough to ask them to pay the cost, I would want to see the plans that they had when they formed and poured. Poorly placed dimensions are responsible for plemnty of errors.That leads to another question - whether this is designed by an architect or at the dining room table on scratch paper. Both can have errors - but the errors tend to be of different kinds.One reson that I like being a design/build outfit is that all the responsibility is on me. I can't blame anyone else for mistakes so I make sure that I don't make any.One reson that I hate being a design/build outfit is that all the responsibility is on me. I can't blame anyone else for mistakes so I have to make sure that I don't make any.;)The point being, that Marie has now learned that she and hubby are responsible for whatever anyone does on the property
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Yep, I agree Piffin.
I'm thinking the easiest solution won't really cause much pain, but the oversize could be come a huge problem if it encroaches into the setback area.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Even if not in the setback zones, the increase in square footage can result in fines if not reported and paperwork properly done.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
KC,
So whats the verdict??? Is your foundation wall 11" further ( thickness of existing house basement/foundation wall) from the house than you wanted?? You've got all these carpenters/builders/GC's chomping at the bit.
As others have mentioned, would you be able to post the plans?? We've already got some confusion going on. Just to try and clear some things up:
1) When you say trusses, you are talking about roof trusses correct?
2) Said roof trusses are running perpindicular to the rafters on the existing house correct?
Would you be able to put another block wall on the inside/ right next to foundation wall that was put to far out?? Then you would pretty much be back to the dimensions that your trusses where ordered for........right?
Keep us updated,
m2akita
I'm getting tired of waiting for Marie...let's just all drive over there and check this thing out. Maybe we can roll some trusses while we're there...Allen in Santa Cruz
Thank you God for Life, Love, and Music
Edited 2/12/2005 12:34 pm ET by moondance
Ya, lets all go and drive over to this foundation.
Oh, whats the address?......that's easy;
Just look for the foundation thats 11" too wide.
Edited 2/12/2005 1:05 pm ET by Hube
"Ya, lets all go and drive over to this foundation.
Oh, whats the address?......that's easy;
Just look for the foundation thats 11" too wide.
Edited 2/12/2005 1:05 pm ET by Hube
What were you trying to say that required editing??
Holy Crap! I was finally able to get back online today and I can't believe all the responses! Thank you everyone! Sorry it's taken me so long to respond back!
So here's the deal. By the way, I'm totally amazed by how well some of you really understood what was going on and you suggested almost exactly what we're going to do.
So yup, we double checked and the front portion of the foundation was off and was 11 inches wider than the plans. Basically they screwed up and poured the new wall directly in line with our old wall. So the innermost part of the foundation wall was in line with the outermost part of the existing.
Oh yeah, and to answer some of your questions, the new roof will be perpendicular to the old and I was talking about roof trusses, not floor trusses.
So basically to fix the problem, we have to put the new framed wall at that right front location on the innermost side of the foundation wall so it lines up directly with the existing framed wall. I think it was Joe who said this as well. So we will have foundation sticking out from the side of our wall. Luckily we are also building a covered front porch with a slab so the overhang will almost completely be hidden.
Putting the framed wall on the innermost side of the foundation wall gained us 6 1/2 inches in the right direction. (the foundation walls are 10" thick and we are using 2 x 4 framing) To our luck, the foundation guys were also off 1 inch (short) on the left wall. This put got us to our trusses being only 2 1/2" too long (whoops, I meant too short). Our framer mentioned that our trusses could be slightly modified and still have enough bearing area to meet code. We are calling our truss company just to double check. (see, we are trying to learn from our mistake).
We shouldn't have any inspector problems since we are no where close to any setbacks. But we will be calling on Monday just to be sure! :) Good point and thanks for reminding us about that. We were already planning on asking them if the new wall placement would pass inspection but I hadn't even thought about the fact that the foundation walls are now slightly larger and that might be a permit issue.
So yes, we have definitely learned an extremely important lesson. Do not trust anyone! Double check everything. I am definitely the type who feels bad double checking someone's work because they can sometimes get huffy about it. But I will just have to get over that. Next time someone gets made at me for double checking their work I will tell them this story! :)
Also, UBuildit was a big help to us yesterday so please don't automatically assume they weren't doing their job. Like I have said several times, we are our own GC therefore we are ultimately at fault. They definitely helped us solve the problem so we feel like they did their job (plus we still have a long way to go). So for future reference, if I post a problem that we are facing please try to avoid the "let's all hate UBuildit" bandwagon. Because it really doesn't help solve the problem any, right? :)
But I do really appreciate all your advice! You guys are really good at understanding problems with a few pictures, even when you don't have a copy of the plans, that is amazing!
I will try and get our architect to forward us an electronic copy of our plans so you can check them out. I think the dimension was pretty clear on the plans so I don't think we can really blame them at all. But I wouldn't mind having you guys look at them so you can maybe help us catch anything else. Not that I'd want you to do UBuildit's job or anything! :) Just kidding!
Thanks again for everything and we'll keep you posted about our progress! Hopefully this was just a small hiccup that didn't end up being too costly, but will help us be more careful down the road!
(By the way, my name is Kacy! Marie is my middle name, hence kcmarie!
Thanks again!
-Kacy
Edited 2/14/2005 8:38 am ET by kcmarie122
Destroy all my fantasies about a sweet marie living in Kansas City?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
That's it. Time to turn this car around and head home....
It's been said before and I'll say it again. You are the GC and are responsible for everything. I've been working a lot on a very large project run by another GC. Some days there are 25 people there working (yes, that's 25 trucks in the various driveways). The GC comes and looks over everything. He carries around plans and specs, measures, tests, confirms, crawls underneath, gets in the attic and on the roof, measures forms before they're poured, opens boxes and checks for the right products. You can't expect a bunch of subs to show up and do everything right... unless they're guys off this board.
Kacy, I'm glad it's going to be an easy fix, I thought it would be.
I'm a framing subcontractor and I NEVER get upset when someone double checks my work. In fact, I ALWAYS thank them for taking the time to check things out. I'm sincere in my thanks because it's always easier and cheaper for me to fix things if my mistakes are caught in the early phase of the house building process.
I don't mind if the homeowners come in every night and double check everything I'm doing. As long as they are just checking measurements and not trying to dictate technique, I'm okay. One problem that spectators make is expecting everything to be done before it's done. That's a tricky tightrope to walk.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
three guesses, the first two don't count.