Framing 103…”blue style” is actually a test…not a dissertation.
This situation is an actual event…the numbers are approximate and maybe the story is changed slightly to make it more understandable….but anyways…this quiz is worth a coupla premium milkbone treats to the winnah!
I had to start a job with a coupla crew members that I hadn’t worked with before. I didn’t know that they would come unprepared….as I was…
Anyways, I’m fanatical about getting my basement foundation perfectly squared up. I’m also fanatical about using the wall that is labeled 24′ as my baseline.
Step 1) I installed the baseline (the darker 24′ wall) sill plate flush with the foundation corners, as usual,…then proceeded to sight in between the corners to get it perfectly straight. I then fastened it tightly with the straps provided.
Step 2) As I went to get my tools for the addtional steps, I found out: no one had a string line longer than 50′. No one had a tape longer than 50′. All we had between us was the normal assortment of framing tools….guns, staplers, hoses, cords. saws, hammers etc. We did have framing squares and speed square etc.
After rummaging around in my tool box, which had been raided many times since I wasn’t actively working on any crews….I got over my frustration and dealt with the minor inconvenience.
For the premium milkbone treats:
How did I square it up.
For the regular milkbones:
Why am I so fanatical about using the 24′ wall as the baseline?
Here’s some background….It’s a ranch…all brick..and all hips.
Good luck….and hold off on the jokes.
Aww forget it…I like the jokes best…
blue
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information…don’t listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Replies
I suppose you squared it with three tapes and the 3-4-5 triangle method.
No idea why you didn't select the longest wall as the base line. Maybe 24 is your IQ so that's why you went with that wall. :)
All I know, I learned from Luka.
Wrong Ed...my IQ aint that high!
The 3-4-5 method won't work...I don't have a string long enough to get to the other endin one piece.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
>The 3-4-5 method won't work...Huh? It sure will, and that's why you started with the 24' wall. Here goes -- you, being a fanatic and perfectionist, ensured the 24' wall is plumb, level, straight, and square; using your precision tape you marked each end of a 24' line atop that wall -- this is the "3" part of 3-4-5 (3 x 8'). Using your accurate framing square at the north end of the wall you measured and marked a 32' line; this is the "4" part of 3-4-5. Finally you measured the distance between the ends of those lines and confirmed that they're 40' (5 x 8) apart; of course they are -- your fanatical self supervised the construction.I like jumbo size milkbones.
Sorry Leucas....I musta misled you. I was squaring the mudsill that goes on the basement walls. In our neck of the woods, the foundation companys are prone to doing creative work. I find it necessary to start off with a perfect foundation sill to get the house started on the right foot.
I typically won't pull a 60' line through a 40' mark. I prefer the squareing system to be full length.
Keep in mind....this was/is a slightly fabricated story. I actually did have a long enough chalkline...I just didn't have a 100' tape.
In the business, we call that creative license.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Bleu, what do you think........gives it an international flair, no?
The tape length is no problem. I don't know if I could trust it, but I suppose you could lug a hundred foot cord for your diagonals, or use a couple of tapes, hold in together in the hole and hope your addition is correct.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Calvin....you win the premium milkbones. That was fast. I didn't think it would get answered so quick.
I used a 100' yellow jacket...#12 wire.
Oh well, the regular milkbone question is still floating.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
yikes, don't win often.
as to the 24 ft wall? When I was being taught framing it WAS ALWAYS, left to right, front to back. Period.
Could not suggest that old dog a different trick.
Or, easier to correct a slight wow on the long wall, thus use the short wall for the starter.Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
When I was being taught framing it WAS ALWAYS, left to right, front to back.
Calvin...what do you think about that lesson now? Do you still adhere to it? Why was that rule important to your mentor?
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Blue, I was told it was the way we do it because no matter when we would go back to a job, we always knew where layout was. Pulling from the left, first mark-13.5" from corner.
I used that method unchanged forever.
Remodeling limits it's application, but also shows how consistancy has it's merits. It's still in my mind when I pull the tape to start layout.Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Calvin, Thanks for the explanation. I thought it might be something like that.
That layout wouldn't work for most of our normal height basements. That would put a joist a little too close (inches matter when your approaching the limit) and they wouldn't beable to get the window in. It would be close...maybe too close.
It's a good idea as long as everyone understands that it sometimes could be changed if floor member layouts dictated otherwise.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
From an engineer's perspective, that's kinda dumb, unless you knew for a fact that the cord was exactly 100'.
On the other hand, even if you weren't working with even multiples of 3-4-5, you simply measure opposite diagonals. If they're the same (regardless of the length), you're square. All you'd have to do is make marks with a Sharpie on the cord.
I guess I'm anal. I use a $8000 Topcon total station for layout, and not allow myself to be off more than 0.01' on any size building. I checked my house foundation to make sure it was level to 1/8" all the way around.
Was working on a big commercial project one time, a three story retirement home, and the framing crew was about 16 guys from I dunno where, all spoke Portuguese only, except for the foreman. I thought they were efficient, but anybody can be efficient if you don't bother to check plumb and square. Ten guys moving materials around the site, four guys running framing nailers, two guys on chopsaws, and there wasn't a level, transit or stringline anywhere on that site. There wasn't a square corner or plumb wall anywhere in the building. When they got to framing in the elevator shafts, they were so far off that they had to use a 10' long, 2x12 ripped lengthwise on the long axis, just to use as a shim. I never did figure out how they actually cut the thing.
Bingo Jon!
That's what I did....I marked the cord with a sharpie, and made the two sides parallel. I then created a trapazoid by making another mark with the sharpie. Finding the center perpindicular line was then the last step in my improvised squareing exercise.
I usually can square up most foundations in about ten minutes using this technique...but I usually use a tape...
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
If you are trying to be a contractor the first thing you should worry about is being organized and prepared for the job rather than being innovative with squaring up a foundation. How fanatical can you be if you don't have the proper tools onhand?
You got it right Westcoast.
Best way is to go back to the truck and get the transit for initial setup, then use temperature compensated steel tape and tension correction factors for squaring measurements. Laser inferometer works pretty good too.
Ummm...not very....
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Nice, Johnny. Second post and you've already got everyone all figured out."If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain
You must be getting soft if you're not canning speedsquare users anymore. :-)
Like others, my workline is usually the longline when practical (a habit from my construction millwright life). I use a steel tape and calculate the diagonals when the draftsman/Archy/eng. is too lazy to do it. (Those long plastic, stretchy tapes can throw you off a bunch).
I haven't answered your question...I don't like milkbones....prefer raw liver instead.
I'm sending some regular milkbones because you correctly identified a common problem....using substandard tapes that stretch too much!
If your not going to spend the big bucks for a stainless steel civil engineers tape...don't come trash talking to me about using my yellow jacket!
We can never rely on a diagonal that given on the plans.....were lucky if the parallels are close! Remember...this is residential and a lot of liberties are granted.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
I should have pulled out the speedsquare lying in the bottom of the tool box and used that along with......
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
I can see why you would use the 24' wall as a starting point. You would want the garage wall and the house wall to be straight as possible.
The 50' tape should not be a problem to square. What I would do is measure 30' from back right corner into garage wall ,40' along back, 50' along diagonal. That should get the sill plates pretty close to square. When I chalk the floor i would do the same. If I needed to adjust a lines i would ,since it is a brick house and you have a little room to play with moving the lines in and out
If that doesn't make you happy that the house is square you could always run to the store to get a 100' tape
mhilton..."pretty close" is not good enough for an old anal guy like me. If I didn't have those 100' yellow jackets, I'd certainly have run to the store to buy the proper tools....
....maybe.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Milkbones to you mhilton!
I always use the wall behind the garage if there isn't an offset. I've found that if I use that wall, the rest of the garage walls will actually land on the block foundation that is usually put in a coupla days after the poured basement walls. If I use the long back wall as the base....and the side wall wanders a little, the error is doubled and then all the garage walls are hanging of the block a little. It is strong enough...but it just looks like someone screwed up....which they did!
If I stubbornly set the garage wall directly on their foundation, a small crook is built into the long line of the garage/house wall.
This is one of those deviations from my mentor that I recently posted. He always lined up the rear wall and cussed the garage foundation contractors for screwing up the garage block. It took me at least ten years to undo that idea.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Well, the obviouis question is ... have you ever measued your 100 ft electrical cord to see exacty how long it is? And if you have not, shame on you for using an unverified device.
All I know, I learned from Luka.
Well, the obviouis question is ... have you ever measued your 100 ft electrical cord to see exacty how long it is? And if you have not, shame on you for using an unverified device.
Ummmm welll no I haven't Ed.....but the overall length of the cord is meaningless.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
but the overall length of the cord is meaningless.
Ok, I'm missing something. What did you use the electric cord for? I got the impression that you used it to measure a distance.
All I know, I learned from Luka.
Ed, I did use the cord...but I didn't know what the lengths were. I made marks with a sharpie to get parallel, then some additional marks to create a trapazoid. I then used my 35' tape to find the center of the trapazoid. I then pull all parallels off those lines.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Seems like all those sharpie marks on your cords are gonna get confusing after a while... Unless you have 8 different colors of sharpies... Oh - wait. Then your gona only be able to frame 8 houses and then will have to retire... :-) Or buy new cords every coupla months or so... Matt
Or buy new cords every coupla months or so
I thought we proved conclusively in amother threads that all cords only last one job <g> . . .
That company 23' 11 3/32" will have a few cords extra when they are done . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
We get very confused when we put more than one sharpie mark....Since I had to put two different marks on our cord....I had to write it down in my construction notebook and explain which mark was which...and what each did.
I wish I woulda thought about different color sharpies....I still would have had to write it down, but colors are funner.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Next time bring some white tape -- adhesive tape. Put the tape on the yellowjacket, make sharpie marks on the tape. Pull the tape off when you're done.
-- J.S.
There you go Dirsh!
No extra sharpie marks to confuse ole blue!
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Those #12 yellow jackets come in handy... I used one as a safty rope a few weeks ago on a roof. Don't tell Mr OSHA though. :-) I set some toe boards and then it came in handy for plugging in the saw I needed to cut off the excess sheathing too! I had a guy about 1.5 x my size belay me. Matt
Good Idea Dirishimme..
Since your cord was all tied up...what did you do with your rope....leave it at the Rodeo?
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Why am I so fanatical about using the 24' wall as the baseline?
Because your tape is only 50' long, the back wall is 60'.
c'mon blue.. how's about some challenge ?
1: u start w/ the 24' wall becuase it's a extension ofthe garge wall and it has to be straight to look good
2: construct a 20x24' extension of the back of the garage and square it
3: square the remaining rectangle
4: fire everyone involved for not having a 100' tape
But, but Mike....we don't have a long enough line or tape to get across the 60' length.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Mike, I guess you have to explain EVERY step of your way to Blue.
Cmon Blue, I would hope this problem would at least have a 45 or an octagon. Throw something harder out next time.
RA
p.s. who doesn't bring a couple of 100' when starting a new house? I used to be docked an hour for forgetting things like my tape.
Rob, Mike was simply trying to belittle the thread...not actually participate in it. All I was trying to do was explain how I decided to go about squaring up a foundation with a different method.
Am I trying to excuse myself for not having a hundred foot tape? No. But, after I was aware that I didn't have one, I had to make a decision. I could have done the 3.4.5 method...or the 5/12/13 method.....or the 12/12/16.97 method.....but I really dont trust any squaring method that doesn't completely diagonally measure the entire distance. I don't like to pull strings through a point because of the danger of error magnification.
And Mike didn't fully explain the significance of the second question....and I'm not awarding any milkbones for answers that miss the point.
So to answer your question about who doesn't bring a 100' tape when they're starting a house? Me. It's probably the first time that it happened in my 30 year history.....but instead of crying about it...I got the job done without leaving the job and having 3 guys twiddling their thumbs....
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Hey boss,
Mike didn't say anything about a 3.4.5. or anything along those lines. I don't believe in that crap either. I poured foundations for about 7 years, the 3.4.5. is a joke. I actually worked for a guy for about a month, all he ever used was the 3.4.5., it NEVER came out square in the end.
but again...the moral of your story is..... don't forget your tape.
not true, blue... not belittling at all..
just that pros will always find a way.. me.. i'd break it down into the max rectangles my tapes would measure diagonallyMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I shoulda told you that no one had a tape! Any tape!
Oh well, I don't know how to set up the story....anyways, the garage is always about a foot or two lower....it'd be a real PIA to square around that.
Okay...you were only belittling a little....and you still only earn one milkbone...just because I'm not in a good mood....I don't like caving in....
Awright..I'll toss another..but you ain't getting any for that garage answer.....No sir...no sirree...I can't award any bones for that.
blue
ps don't beg...you aint getting anymore!Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
damn... now answer me this..
why do i feel so grateful for a milkbone ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
1: u start w/ the 24' wall becuase it's a extension ofthe garge wall and it has to be straight to look good
Mike, we'll eventually get that garage wall lined up with the house wall no matter what. You're only supplying half the motive.
4: fire everyone involved for not having a 100' tape
I did...but not specifically because they didn't have a 100' tape...that was just the first clue...
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
I really am fanatical about getting the mudsills and rim in square and level. I actually analyze the entire foundation and decide from there the best way to get the inevitable problems straightened out. Depending on how much time I have, my preference is to take measurements of all the walls, and then figure out what to nudge which way to get into spec. I use a laser distance measuring device accurate to 1/8" in 660 ft and a 5-beam laser to check for square. I make my marks and double check with a 100 ft tape and my construction calculator or I do the math on paper. I have at least one backup tape in my truck for my 25', my 35', and my 100' tapes. Using a yellow jacket would go against my first statement.
There would have been no problem getting your foundation square with just a 25' tape in a pinch.
But that's why you can make more money than me. I work S - L - O - W!
Luckily, I am able to keep my head above water.
Edited 12/12/2004 7:53 pm ET by Les
Actually Les, the Yellow Jacket worked perfectly.
Question: If your first method is precise, why do you double check, and triple check? If you found your firstmethod to be inaccurate, why would you ever use that method again?
I give it my best shot the first time, and let the chips fall where they lay. If a problem surfaces later, I can usually track down the origin...but if I don't, I've never failed to make a field adjustment that is workable.
I'm curious how the lasers work outside in bright light. I haven't had any success, but then again, I haven't sunk any big bucks into a system....since the Yellow Jackets (my backup) work perfectly om our stuff.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Blue,
I doublecheck the lasers because of the possibility that they have been dropped between uses. Actually, they have always worked perfectly.
I do my initial measurements using the Stabila LE100 distance measuring tool. This is a very accurate tool if you know its limitations. It usually works great on wood and most hard surfaces. When used on concrete, one must use judgment. The rough texture of the concrete can scatter the return signal and confuse the device. I will quickly take two or three readings if I am suspicious of the results. The other potential problem surfaces when I am taking a reading off of a surface that is being bathed by the sun. I believe that the multitude of scattered energies from the sunshine bouncing off the same surface as the laser beam tends to get back into the receiver and confuse the system. I usually solve this problem by reading with the device located on the sunny side of the foundation so (with the sun in front of me) that the beam bounces off of a shady area. This device always gives me a better reading than a tape when used with this knowledge. Finally, I have made several special boards to use for accurate measurements for this device and for the 5-beam laser. I start by cutting a piece of masonite-like material available at big boxes into 5x12 rectangles. This is the material which is about 1/8" thick and covered with a hard white surface on one side and comes in 4X8 sheets or shelving-sized sheets - kind of like soffitt material, which might work even better.
I then cut a 2X6 into 1-ft lengths and screw the reflective portions onto the edge so you have something like a bookend. I lay these on the foundation so that I can measure accurately without a helper. By marking a few lines on the reflective surface with my pencil and making sure the blocks are level, I can transfer a dot on the surface to a line on the foundation.
The doublecheck with a tape is done in just one or two or three key measurements and takes only a minute.
I can usually see the dot from my 5-beam laser quite well, and can use the red glasses if it is too bright and the distance is about 80 feet or more. The trick with a 5-beam is to calibrate it and test it to see if the beams are truly 90 degrees apart and to understand that the dot will get bigger as the measurement distance increases. I always try to get my lines on the center of the projected dot no matter how big it is.Les Barrett Quality Construction
Sounds like fun Les. I like guys that come up with new ways to do old stuff. Before I developed my trapazoidal approach....I tried about half a dozen different ways of squaring the mudsill plates and when I finally figured out this current method....I was ecstatic due to it's simplicity and accuracy. I wish you could come and check out my method using your tools so I could get a handle on how accurate we are.
BlueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
I actually analyze the entire foundation and decide from there the best way to get the inevitable problems straightened out.
Les, I too am very concerned about getting the house square. I don't usually check them for level anymore (I used to shoot them all after the deck was one) because the foundation guys all use good lasers nowadays and level problems have disappeared. ....Now that I think about it, we did have to adjust one corner on the last big house (the tower house)....
Anyways, because of the way we prebuild stuff and prefit overhangs...getting things perfectly square from the beginning is a great timesaver. We don't spend a lot of extra time doing this however...we just use basic geometry and very basic concepts to achive a very high level of accucacy. I'm sure the high tech stuff might get us a 1/16th inch closer....but maybe not.
We also straighten out problems on the foundation...but we do it wall by wall. I teach my guys how to make the decision on every wall and essentially they do a pretty good job of getting it right without my micromanaging.
Usually our biggest challenge is to keep the brick on the brick ledge...which isn't a very big challenge. I've rarely had to make more than an inch adjustment, and on larger houses, that one inch is rarely meaningful. On smaller houses, one inch could create domino effect that could be catastrophic...well...that's and overstatement.
I'll stick with my simple trapazoidal approach. It works...and it works on some real hard stuff to square up.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Well, the 24 is easily divisible by 3 and 4, so you could measure out either 32 or 18 on the other leg and use either 40 or 30 for the hippopotamus. For those who are arithmetically challenged and don't have a calculator around.
Of course, once you've assured the 24' leg is straight, there's no need to go out exactly 24'. You can pick any shorter length and do the arithmetic.
Not clear why you had a problem, though. You can mark off exactly 24' (or whatever) on the installed sill plate and then use one tape and one measured string to find the other corner.
DanH....my string cant reach across to the other end.
Also...I have a two minute rule...the house has to be squared up in two minutes...once the paralell plates are fastened.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Setup your batterboards within a gnats a$$ of level. Stretch a string along the 24' plus 20' wall. Make marks on your string at 44'. (I would start with the longer 60' wall for better accuracy.) The most accurate way is to pull your longest diagonal. The diagonal of 44 and 60 is 74' 4,27/32". GET A 100' TAPE. Swing a line on the perpendicular batterboards so it intersects one of the dots on the string and intersects the diagonal length. Make a dot on the perpendicular string and that is your corner. Now you have strings at a right angle. Pull a parellel string on the other batterboards and mark the string at 60 feet from the corner at the 20' box. To find the smaller 20' square, find the diagonal and swing a string the same way. Fine adjust the dots so they overlap perfectly. I don't care how you do it. Using the longest diagonal is the most accurate and gives the best reference for all the other lines. Double check for parellel and check all the diagonals. Mark the string locations on all the batterboards. You can now revove the strings and forget about the marks on the strings. Use the batterboards to reset the strings to check as you dig. I could layout that simple foundation perfectly in about ten minutes. My dogs don't eat milkbones either. Raw meat please. If you refuse to get a 100' tape, use the diagonal of the 44' wall and the 20' wall for a reference. That way the diagonal is only 48',4" and you could use your rinky dink 50' tape. You wouldn't be as accurate though.
Dogwood, I was squaring up the mudsill on an existing poured wall foundation. There's no need for batterboards. I can work right on top of the poured wall.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
In that case, then I would just flush the mudsill with the concrete because If I poured the foundation, it would be perfect and there would be no need wasting time to "Square" up the mudsill.
Mike Callahan, Lake Tahoe, Ca.
Dogwood, you must be building the houses from foundation to finish. I only rough frame...and never can trust the foundations. They have been much better in recent years, but it's not uncommon to find them out of square 3/4".
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
i think you squared each section one at a time....Total of 3 times
Nope shavey. I've already explained above.
Sorry too late for milkbones....keep watching though...more milkbone challenges are coming!
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Blue, it's been along time since I framed residential. What is the problem with the window?
I just looked at a couple bsmts I finished to see what you're talking about. Guess I never really noticed that the hopper windows are cut up into the box. I don't remember that on the foundations we worked on. Could have been that way, but I'm thinking they dropped 'em down below the sill plate..........but then again, that was a long time ago.
What do you start your first joist/stud off the corner?Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Calvin, on the 7'2" basements (we don't do many of these anymore...but occasionally we still see them) the window is tucked up into the joist frame. We don't actually have the frame and theres always a concern that the masons will install them high. It then becomes critical because the insert has to lift up and swing out to remove it.
I normally put the lap of the joist at exactly 16". I then give the section with windows the full 16" and away layout. The other sections are 16" and back. I just want to hook my tape on the end and mark 16".....
We also don't make any distinction regarding front to back layouts. They are where they are....opposing walls might be different.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
I haven't read the entire thread but there isn't a hypotenuse over 50' on that house if you anchor on the inside corner of that garage. You and Pythagoras could have done the job without your yellow jacket and only one helper holding the end of the tape.
Golden, I didn't have a calculator either and I don't remember the formula for figuring square roots by hand (they taught us how to do that in carpenter school).
Anyways, I always square up going all the way across and since I've been doing it that way, I've never had problems. In that sense, I'm very anal.
Besides, my cords worked fine...and it didn't take but a minute. If I had to pythagorean myself around the entire house, it would have taken two minutes. I saved a minute and did it the way I think is safer.
I would do it again in a heartbeat.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Oh yea, I also get your decision to start with the 24' wall but if you had started at the other end with the thirty foot wall, and squared to the forty, you would have had a nice and easy fifty foot hypotenuse to square it all up.
Of course, your crew would have probably bought you a pocket protector for Christmas. ;-)
No xmas present for me...especially those pocket protectors.
I used to square every offset using the pythagorean method. Frank still does a lot of them like that. Occasionally I do too when pulling a parallel is more complicated.
In the olden days, I'd make the guys cut the green plate to the exact length that was called for on the plans andleave it lay there loose. I'd then walk around and write the diagonal on it (none of them could figure it) and they move around the house measuring the diagonals and nailing the sill (in those days, we only cut nailed the sill to the wall).
I like using the trapazoid and pulling parallels better.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Well, if you had been working off a set of my plans it would have been a snap. I throw a couple of hypotenuse dimensions on the foundation plan just to be a nice guy.
Still, the 30', 40', 50' triangle seemed to me like a no brainer for an old salt like you. Whatever works though. Your method obviously worked fine and showed some real resourcefulness, just not the stuff of a real brain teaser foundation squaring thread.
Come on Blue, give us a head scratcher will ya? :-)>
Golden, I don't have any hard problems out there roughing. Everything is simple. I'm sorry.
I did ask one question about crown mold and I never got the answer....I don't know the answer...but I wish I knew the answer. I'll ask again.
What is the numbers that I'd use on my framing square to get the cut for a crown mold. I'm not using a mitre box or table saw or radial arm saw...I'm just using my power saw. I'd like to know the formula for calcuating the cut...or I'd just like to mark it with my square. I'll 45 it from the backside after I know the numbers.
Then I need to know what the cuts are on a gable 10/12 where the crown meets the top and where it lays onto a 10/12 roof.
I'll survive if I don't get the numbers...I'll just hack it in by eye...and remember...caulk is trim!
blue
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!