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I love a four/ten work week. Tuesday at lunch time you’re half way there. Three days off and four on seems to be hugely different than two off with five on.
I’ve only worked for two builders who agreed to it. One let me do it when I was framing a house pretty far out of town to reduce my gas bill (and he was paying me for travel too). The other builder(s — a partnership) ran a four/ten week as a matter of course. They believed it was better for morale, employee’s family lives and cheaper in set up/breakdown and coffee break costs. I tend to agree.
What do you all think? Any of you work four tens? Are you a new construction crew? remodeling crew? solo remodeler? handyman?
How do you think clients would view it?
Dan Morrison
Replies
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Dan,
There are some problems with 10/4 or 4/10. One is that you end up with three days off and any savings in your gas bill will be offset by an increase in your beer bill.
The standard wookweek revolves around a five day week. A four day work week would mean you would have to suffer either a Friday or a Monday off. Believe me, daytime [weekday] TV is the spitting pits and it probably part of a conspiracy to get unemployed people off their butts.
Also, a ten hour day means you have to work an extra 2 hours a day. This sucks like overtime. There isn't much you can't do in eight hours that you have to stretch out into ten hours, if you're organized.
[Oh, that last sentence is rather unclear. Your mind and body is designed to work for eight hours and anything after that is a useless, wasteful grind. Like you spend the last extra two hours sweeping up or taking two hours to do something that would take you 15 minutes in the morning when you are fresh.]
-Peter
*Awwww Dan, it's about your math.....Tuesday noon and you're halfway there....Tuesday nite might be closer.....Anyways, on some projects it's possible dependant on the driving trades.But on most projects, having one or two trades on 4 day weeks can't work because it interferes with the others.For example, on a commercial job, the masons have to work when they can, given the weather it's can be tough to get in the forty in five days much less 4 days.Electricians and plumbers have to be there for inserts and piping. Carpenters have to be there for door frames etc. Maybe in a climate where it was always nice out or a large indoor job but in most cases it fails to meet the needs of the job.Gabe
*Dan I work the 4/10 shift when I can but it usually works out to 4/10 plus Friday part day. It never seems to work in my favor unless the workload is down to where we are only 4 to 6 weeks out on orders. I can say that it does give me more freedom in the summer when I can Camp/Fish And I do get more done at home for SWMBO in the winter months. Joe
*About 10 years ago I worked in a cabinet shop that routinely ran 9 hour days Monday through Thursday and cut us loose early on Friday. That was a convenience for all of us to get a few things done during normal business hours, and it acknowledged the imperatives of construction scheduling.Come to think of it, I'm glad you brought this up, Dan. I might ask my crew if they'd be interested in doing this. For the reasons Gabe pointed out, I can't afford to close a job site for a day, but somehow I don't think it's going to change too many things if we just went ahead and took off early on Friday, anyway. Dave
*I have worked more 510 weeks that I have worked 410 weeks. Must be that I am self employed.
*L.Siders- Bet you've had a few 5/12s thrown in there too.
*I work a four day week to accommodate watching my son on Fridays. If the subs can't work around my schedule I push em off till the following week. I know I'll never get rich and I certainly take smaller jobs than I otherwise might, but I wouldn't trade that fifth day for the world.I don't suppose you're in the NoVa area?
*currently work a 4/10 week, or should i say my crew dose, the 5th day often becomes my estimating day or the day i catch up service work for established clients.
*I like your style Mike!Most builders wouldn't want anyone skipping fridays but I'd let my crew do that. In fact, we have total flex time.blue
*I would be happy to work 4/10's or better yet 4/9's. The difference in pay would be minimal and if enough people did it it would create jobs for others. I think we work to much for our relitively short lifespans!
*I like it ,I dont like it. I do like what James said about having one day to do business.Nice thought.
*I'm currently working for a company that works 4/10's and I love it. I can either take on a side job or I can get other things done for myself.Dave
*Dan,10 hour days are historically plagued by an increase in injuries; likewise, companies who use an evening shift have found the same to be true.Back in the mid-1960's I worked for Morrison-Knudsen on the missile silos in North Dakota. We went to longer shifts and evening shifts. Injuries went up significantly.We like to go the opposite route in our small business, and we started mainly because of the summer heat here in Texas and our need to avoid it - shorter work day (6 hours), better planning, more efficient use of time and labor and materials, greater productivity and higher pay to offset the reduction in work hours. I love it. Many studies have shown that after 5 hours on-the-job productivity drops off, and it continues to drop off as the workday lengthens. In addition injuries increase significantly.One of the ways that we have increased productivity is to use a cargo trailer that has everything that we need for the job right there. Some throw-away items are kept in stock in triplicate or more. We have a goal of zero trips to any supplier while we are on a job. In other words everything that we need is there when we start the job for the day, and we go like a bat-out-of hell when we start working. An example, my helper knows every move that I will make when I apply Spray-Crete. He has a clean steel trowel ready for me at all times and knows when to swap out with me - I don't have to tell him. Everything is organized in the cargo trailer - not as well as it will be in the next month or two as we will reconfigure it. Every supply, every tool has its place - kinda like the B.C. cartoons, ZIP, ZAP, ZOT! and we're out of there doing whatever we have to be doing.Gotta get to work.Just a thought.Cliff.
*I get tired mid afternoon, no matter what time I start. I remember feeling the same way when I was a young buck too. I'd like to see a study done on produtivety/week of the same crew working 5/7s, 5/8s, 4/9s and 4/10s. A 10 hour day, that would be 7:00-5:30, right? That sounds brutal. 7:00-4:30 sounds all right, but not 5 of them.
*I have heard many times that human factors studies found that people were most productive (sharp) when they had a nap after lunch and then worked the rest of the 'day'.Like a siesta.Folks who live like that get home for supper real late though.I work for a Japanese company, and those folks just don't like to go home at all. We American staff work much more 'human' hours and I feel that we are every bit as productive as they are (maybe because we DO want to go home).It is a dillema, working all that overtime puts lots of moola in the bank, and allows for much more extravagent vacations. But it does sometimes make you feel kinda bone weary.I think that the most important thing is: how satisfying is your work for you? When you are really flying, and getting a lot of work done the overtime just kind of happens. There have been enough times in my life when just working 8 - 5 has felt like torture and some times when 10, 12 and more hours a day has seemed to fly by.Overall? I vote for variety. Not always one way or the other. And keep the work changing and new too.A very interesting thing about how Toyota manages people is that they are given a great deal of resposibility. That seems to get workers more involved in the process of the work and not just punching a clock. Being a manager I am often suprised when younger engineers are cranking on the overtime to complete a project and it is not becuase I've been pushing them but because they personally care about the outcome.4 / 10 would never work around here because I predict that most people would still come in (for at least part of) Friday.
*I am thinking about proposing the 4/10 to my boss when my wife goes back to work. She took some time off to take care of our baby. I would spend the fifth day taking over child care/house work (and Jerry Springer...). I think I would work out a deal where I could be reached by phone as needed on the fifth day.I have a 45-55 min commute door to door, so I suppose it will be more efficient for my time. Truth be told, I often put in the 10 hours days anyway, so might as well get them recognized.One big difference between my situation and a lot of yours is that I work in an architecture office, so I am basically a desk jockey. Risk of injury is far less.
*pm, any savings in your gas bill will be offset by an increase in your beer bill. This is a problem? as for daytime TV, I'd just watch Norm reruns that I've taped...Gabe, Nice to hear from you again. Hey, I enjoyed your article in JLC about slabs (last year?) was that you in the picture? -- you know the guy with the pony tail gettin down and dirty with the mud? The math. Yeesh, I know! It hit me today out of nowhere while trying to miss my thumb with my 32 oz Vaughn that Tuesday at lunch isn't half way there at all. It's Tuesday at Beer thirty!! Nice catch though.I don't do a whole lot of commercial work, and the point about the masons is well taken. But I've framed houses in extremely cold weather in western Montana, so it shouldn't really slow down the carpenters.Mike, yep, that's the biggest reason -- to be with my family. I'm in Maine now, working for someone else as the lead carpenter. When I worked at my own business I'd do ten or twelve hours a day every weekday. I'd get up around 5:30, do office work, then show up at the client's house around 8:00. They seem to like it when you don't show up till 8.I worked with a company here in Maine when I first arrived who did the 4/10 thing. they'd give three 15 minute breaks per day -- use them as you wish. So we worked from 6:30 to 4:00 with a morning coffee break and a paid lunch. The morale was high (very good crew) and productivity was excellent. If you keep a list of things to do, you can always fill up extra time at the end of the day if needed.David, you say that the company you work for does it, what do you do? New construction? Remodeling? carpentry? roofing?Increase in injuries seems to be a valid point. And amen to the preparedness of the job site trailer, but that should be the case regardless of what the work schedule is.Interestingly enough, David Gerstel and Tim Faller both endorse it in their books (The Builder's Guide to Running a Successful Construction Company and The Lead Carpenter Handbook respectively).Sometimes it's hard not to take that siesta though eh kerr?Dan
*Cliff, your 5 hours workdays are right on! I've worked a ton of 5 hour days in my life. I now get bored after 4 on a rough frame...blue
*I think Sonny has the right Idea. Charge 110$/hourwork two 4 hour days, make 44000/year with 2 weeks off to rest up for next year.More power to ya Sonny!!!Actually the eurpeans have something in thier 4 day weeks. 32 hours should be enough for any one to live on.Only, customers who have thier houses torn up, probably would like to see us working 7 14 hour days until thier job is done.Mr T
*I served my apprenticeship in a union carpentry outfit. We were only allowed to work 35 per week back in the good old days.Anyways, the union went back to 40 hours at the height of the early 80 recession. I guess they didn't want to share any of their work with their layed off brothers.blue
*Dan , I'm working for a commercial construction company right now .I just started in Aug. with them, and so far I like it. I still have my contractors lic.(7yrs) , but I got slow and these guys needed a hand on a Davis-Bacon (prevailing wage)job. I would probably still be self employeed but $35/hr was hard to pass up. We work 7-5:30, with two 15 min. breaks and a 30 min. lunch. The hardest part for me was getting up at 5 a.m. I was use to getting up at 6-6:30 when I was working for myself.Dave
*Family is the biggest reason that we DON'T work 4-10's. My wife would kill me if I wasn't around in the mornings and late afternoons helping with our kids. Her paycheck is about the same as mine, so how can I argue?Daylight in the winter is another big factor. In the middle of December it is hard to see much around 4:15 especially if you are inside and no lights are wired.One thing we do in the summer if we are working in an isolated spot (usually), is to get a 6am start and knock off at 2:30. This is like having a full day ahead of you after work and is great for tennis, golf, hiking, sailing, and other activities with or without kids. It will also cut down on your beer tab.
*I knew I should have not gone to college (mom and dad insisted). As an architect I end up working 10-12 hours per day 7 days week for 2 to 3 months at a time (usually two to three times a year and 50 hour per week the rest of the time). Oh well.
*Rd, it's not too late...lots of us went to college but found tools more fun....
*SWMBO?
*She Who Must Be Obeyed
*Here's what Calvin & Hobbs has to say about the work day!
*single white mega bitch overseer?T
*I also like to ease into my day , and then taper off from there.Dave
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I love a four/ten work week. Tuesday at lunch time you're half way there. Three days off and four on seems to be hugely different than two off with five on.
I've only worked for two builders who agreed to it. One let me do it when I was framing a house pretty far out of town to reduce my gas bill (and he was paying me for travel too). The other builder(s -- a partnership) ran a four/ten week as a matter of course. They believed it was better for morale, employee's family lives and cheaper in set up/breakdown and coffee break costs. I tend to agree.
What do you all think? Any of you work four tens? Are you a new construction crew? remodeling crew? solo remodeler? handyman?
How do you think clients would view it?
Dan Morrison