I’m planning to build a 25’x25′ free-standing garage. The 16′ door and 3′ entry door will be on the gable end and the roof will be a 12/8 pitch. What’s the best way to frame the roof and ceiling assuming no interior posts?
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I think the easiest thing would be to use trusses.
Harry
First things first. Buildings today are built with even numbers. Makes the building easier and less waste.
Second, I assume so really mean an 8/12 pitch roof.
Third,Are you going to have a second floor?
Ok, let's say it's going to be 24'x24', 8/12 pitch, and no second floor.
The easiest answer is trusses, like you were told.
""Buildings today are built with even numbers."" HORSE PUCKY!! Some buildings today are built with an eye towards economizing on materials by a thoughtful process that may or may not include using dimensions that make the most efficient use of the most common sized paneled materials.
Other are built with no concern to that at all.
(BTW there need be no waste in a 25' dimension) Right on about the 8/12 pitch.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
John, I should have said, buildings without undo waste, that better?
Yea, much better.
That statement caught my eye because I am so used to seeing building dimensioned out to odd inches .
Archies don't always pay attention to sheet good sizes when drawing custom homes (or other type structures).
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Glad you guys settled that. Got any thoughts on the original question?
Other than trusses, that is. I once owned a house built with trusses, and the roof developed valleys between the trusses after just a couple of years. They were 24'OC and I suppose I could do trusses at 16'OC.
Edited 9/19/2008 9:47 pm ET by lottolearn
If you use 5/8 t+g you wouldnt get the sag on 24" centers, most likely was 1/2 ply or OSB thats why it sags. 5/8 min on 24", trusses I see are almost always laid out for 24" centers, shouldnt be a problem
I'd recommend trusses @ 24"oc and 5/8s on the sheathing
"Other than trusses, that is. I once owned a house built with trusses, and the roof developed valleys between the trusses after just a couple of years. They were 24'OC and I suppose I could do trusses at 16'OC. "The trusses weren't the problem anyway, it was the roof sheathing.
You shouldn't rule out trusses based on one bad experience. Everyone here uses trusses on 24" centers and 5/8 OSB, and I have not once seen such a roof sag between the trusses. If you insist on stick framing, you would have to have a structural ridge. It's going to have to be beefy.
Thanks for the insight. If I use trusses, what effect if any does it have on the size requirement for the garage door header. I was figuring on using a double 11-1/4" LVL.
Edited 9/19/2008 10:13 pm ET by lottolearn
If you use trusses you may not need a garage door header.
Header is only required is the roof load lands on it.
Are the trusses going to land on the gable end wall? Not likely.
Have your truss designer design a truss for that wall after telling him you will not be using a header over the door.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Doesn't hurt to have a header to mount torsion spring and rails to ....
Jeff
No, not at all. You are correct. I was just pointing out the building can be built without them . Using a load bearing truss at that location can be very cost effective.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Thanks for the insight. If I use trusses, what effect if any does it have on the size requirement for the garage door header. I was figuring on using a double 11-1/4" LVL.
It would have the same effect as rafters would if the garage door was on the rafter wall. Since the door is on the gable end, it doesn't matter whether it's a truss roof or stick framed roof.
Joe Carola
Edited 9/20/2008 7:00 am ET by Framer
If you insist on stick framing, you would have to have a structural ridge. It's going to have to be beefy
Marson,
That's not true. You don't need a structural ridge. I've built many,many 24x24 garages with just 24' 2x8 ceiling joists w/double rows of 2x4 and 2x6 strongback and sometimes vertical 2x4's going from the strongback to the rafters. Depends on what the Architect spec's and what the HO plans on putting up there.
After that just normal framing with 2x8 rafters, 2x10 ridge and collar ties. I'm framing 20 wide garage today with 20' 2x8 ceiling joists. I know it's smaller, but that's what I'm doing.
Joe Carola
It's those regional differences again. I know exactly what our local plan reviewer would tell me: "you need to get this engineered". Then I know what an engineer would say: "I don't trust the connection between the ceiling joist and the rafter/wall, you need a structural ridge". I can tell you that in the last 15 years or so that I have been involved in this business in a big way, I haven't seen a single roof framed that way, except maybe on a little garage or something where someone screwed up the truss order.I don't disagree with you that it can be done your way. Heck, every old house in this town is framed that way, and they're still standing. I was going to point out that I would have to special order twenty four footers, but that's a wash because trusses have to be special ordered too.My apologies for working this topic over yet again.
Then I know what an engineer would say: "I don't trust the connection between the ceiling joist and the rafter/wall, you need a structural ridge".
Why wouldn't he trust where the ceiling joists nailed to the top plate and nailed along side the rafters? Why would you need a structural ridge? You can put collar ties set at a certain height with a 2x ridge and not need a structural ridge.
Joe Carola
"Why wouldn't he trust where the ceiling joists nailed to the top plate and nailed along side the rafters? Why would you need a structural ridge? You can put collar ties set at a certain height with a 2x ridge and not need a structural ridge."I don't have an answer to that. Engineers are generally a conservative bunch. I don't disagree with you, I'm just pointing out the roadblocks that we run into when we try to hand frame a roof around here.What are the snowloads in your area? Our roofs are designed to support 50# psf live + dead.
2 x 4 Walls.
Trusses, 24" oc.
OSB/Advantech sheathing except on exposed eaves.
Decide in advance if you want attic storage, if so inform your truss manufacturer of that need. Standard trusses are not designed for any storage loads at all. Now I also would look into (depending on your location and applicable codes) having no 3' door in the gable end. Weakens the wall too much for racking resistance when placed in a 24' long wall along side a 16' garage door.
Move the door around the corner and away from it by at least 4'
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Better way to put it but even numbers rarely have much to do with it, I rely on looking at what I've got to do and what I have around and use stuff efficiently. You know as well as I do that you can use up short blocks, plywood, etc.. in all sorts of places-- nailers, headers, overhangs, all that stuff can get used.
Thoughtfulness and awareness are the best options for little waste. 24' outside means 23' inside, where you want to have the waste? No offense but a newbie should put hes thoughts on being aware not on some standard numbers.
Material waste aside,,,, another thing that drives building dimensions is local zoning/codes. I've built a couple garages/shops that were the maximum square footage you could build on a simple slab (this is in frost country).Harry
If this was a conventional roof with 2x6 rafters, there would be a lot more waste if it was 24 x 24. A 25 x 25 garage is a fit under 16' rafters. The roof plywood wouldn't have any waste. There wouldn't be any waste on the wall.25 x 25 on a garage is very efficient. Back to origninal question: I would not use trusses. If you are building an ordinary detached garage and done intend to store anything up in the attic, you don't need ceiling joist. You would frame the garage with rafters and a few wall ties. If you intend to load the attic, you've got a different need. Either trusses or I Joist will be necessary.
I have a 2.5 car garage roof framed with 2x6 with a 1x ridge board, 5 2x4 wall ties. Its still in great shape, 42 years old. Yes, trusses are not needed for that size garage.
Where are you located? This will help the discussion.
I have built many houses and garages with trusses at 2' centers with 1/2" OSB and have never had sag. The latest product to use would be advantech.
Gentlemen, this discussion is over the top. I can frame a building with little or no waste when it is even dimensions. I did not mean to imply that a 25x25 garage could not be built. I am still trying to figure out how something built on odd numbers can have less waste.
Attic trusses are what you want if you have any desire for storage or second floor. If you are hung up on using 2' centers, go to 16" centers.
Now if you live on the west coast, it seams that they are hung up on using rafters, rather than trusses. That's fine, but remember you have to have a framer with skills to frame with rafters. The problem, is as I see it is that there are fewer and fewer framers with the proper skills to do this.
"trying to figure out how something built on odd numbers can have less waste."The simple answer is that waste is more a factor of how the framers use their drops than the size of the frame. The next factor is the roof framing members. They fit better on a 25' wide building with an 8/12.
Great points ... but after all it IS a garage and shorting the 25' depth to 24' could be a mistake from a practical standpoint.
1' (wall/door) + 2.5' (clear) + 16' (vehicle) + 2.5' (clear) + 2' storage + .5' (wall) = 24.5' overall ...
Jeff
In July worked on a friends new garage, he's real sorry he used trusses now. For the approx. $4000 more in stick frameing he could have had a second floor. We all need more space. Just like when I bought a trailer, asked what size to get and was told whatever you think you need double it.
I'm just beginning to look at this myself. Gustav blew the top half of an 80 foot water oak onto my 25x25 garage (with my pathfinder in it for protection). i'm seriously considering a full tear down and rebuild with 2nd story, because i need the space for guests. my first question will be about 25' free span floor joist/decking. any suggestions?my next question is about the slab. i don't think there is much, if any, footing under the slab perimeter, and the existing slab is too low (water seeps under in a good rain). is it reasonable to remove the perimeter of the slab, dig footings, then pour 3-4 inches overlay on the existing slab?
>is it reasonable to remove the perimeter of the slab, dig footings, then pour 3-4 inches overlay on the existing slab?<
If you don't have space restrictions, leave the existing slab alone and put your new footers & curb just outside of the existing slab. Build up from there slightly larger than the original.
i have a setback restriction on one side, but i like the idea for the other 3 sides. thanks
I was thinking the same thing as John 7q. Truss design comes with engineered stamp. You can spec a living space above easially.
You'll have to get those answers elsewhere, sorry. The upfront cost may hurt, but long term, painless.
I'm surprised to see how many "truss-its" there are compared to 'stick-its". I guess it's just a changing time. . .
Three semi-sober carpenters could have had the roof stick framed in the time that this thread has existed.
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
Something like this, the only differences are this is a block structure and it's a hip roof.http://picasaweb.google.com/josephfusco.jr/GarageRoofFraming#http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
You want efficiency?
Frenchy will come by with his pregnant sister-in-law to timber frame that beast in less time than those half drunk carps!
When is she gonna have that kid? She's been pregnant for like 5 years?
Lotto,
Mine is a 24x24 I built almost 20 years ago. I used trusses on 24" centers and 5/8" sheathing and have no problems other than the shingles have about reached the end of thier life. My roof is 6/12 pitch.
I will also second what someone else mentioned about a second story room. You can get trusses that will give you about a 12" clear span in the middle of the upper floor. I wish I had done it when I built mine, the extra room would have been nice.
Bill Koustenis
Advanced Automotive Machine
Waldorf Md