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Mark,
In addition to the answers you’ve received already, there is another reason for specialization. Namely, specialization, cuts down on tool and tooling costs.
For instance, if I were to take on a framing job, I would have 3 chop saws, 6 routers, 2 thickness planes, one thickness sander, table saws, shaper, 2 compressors, miter clamps, bisquit machines, dust suckers, not to mention thousands in profile knives, heads, power feeds wings cutters etc etc etc. wasting away.
The kind of framing and trim work you are talking about obviously has a huge bearing on the degree of specialization required (by virtue of the type of equipment necessary to do the job, not to mention the experience necessary for the job).
But basically, I think specialization started as soon as humans started walking erect. You can bet that the carpenters who did the framing on St. Pauls (for instance) were not the same ones who carved the corbels etc. etc.
I am personally all for specialization. In fact, my specialty is all the trim work which falls between my waist and my shoulder blades. Anything higher or lower does not interest me.
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I get the impression that it is the standard practice to either frame or finish, not both. Is this so and if so how did it come about. Here we do it all no exceptions. If you frame then you finish and no one will go to finish someone elses frame ( not without a lot of bitching that is )
*Mark,
Joseph FuscoView Image
*Maybe the framing OR finishing phenomenon has come about via cookie cutter houses in cookie cutter subdivisions. It made since to the money mongers to have one crew do one thing, do it fast, and move next door. I once saw a subdivision built with specialty framing subs. One crew to throw the floor system down, one to throw the walls up and one to throw on the roof. And I mean THROW. The mentality seems to be that if you specialize, you do it faster there by making everyone more money.I remain diversified. My crew handles everything from foundation to finish in the building trades with the exception of mechanicals. We don't do it all on every house though. I try to pick my work, break the monotony, and still remain economically sound.
*MarkAll the guys that I know work on i customprojects and like myself 'do it all'. . .when the latest of the subdivision building booms started happening around southern Ontario, and other large urban centres about 20 years ago,I guess the pool of quality Carps was too small to get it done in a hurry, and I think the phenomenon of framers and finishers was born of this perceived need to get it all up at once. . . sure did water down the talent pool over night. The trade schools continue to spew outi carpenterswho will never hang a door in their working lives. . . a guy I know who just i retiredspent his whole life as a union Carp doing nothing but concrete forms, and building site hoardings. Sounds like a office job to me!!
*We do virtually all on each project...it's nice seeing a job through to fruition. It keeps you honest as well, as a good frame makes rock/tile/cabinetry/trim much, much easier.I'm not trying to set building speed records, just trying to put together a few decent packages a year. The faster route is an option for some, I prefer not more then two projects in the same phase of construction at a time. Keeps things simple both on site and in the head.
*Mark - I grew up and started in the trade in New England. The only things I ever heard of being subbed out were plumbing, wiring and on one house right befor I left home (1973) we subbed out the drywall hanging. Much to my amazement when I got to THE GREAT NORTHWEST virtually all spec home building was done by a series of subs - foundation, framing, roofing and so on. Over the years I have come to believe that this practice developed in California, with the unrelenting demand for housing as the hordes moved west over the past 150 years. Thus the term "California Framer" which is still uttered with disdain by many old timers hereabouts. I believe it to be a natural evolution of the division of labor. I enjoy every part of our profession but I don't honestly think I can outframe someone who does it everyday, any more than I can raise beef cheaper than the farmer or make bread cheaper than the baker. Same can be said for any other part of the trade.-yb
*"Fruition." So how'd you do on the SAT?
*When I started, union carpenters were required to contract, both the frame and the finish, on houses. Most roughing crews would then have a trimmer that worked fulltime for the same builder, and contractor. It still seperated the carpentry trade, but on paper it looked like there was no seperation.Occasionally, I'd have to "go in" and work on the trim, when there was a break in the rough stuff. I'd drag in my big muddy boots, 20 oz rocket, and bent up old guardless saw (I'd re-file the blade too!). One time, I had to install all the spindles on and open rail system. A few days later I overheard the boss complaing; "It's pretty bad when an apprentice rougher comes in and installs the rails faster, on his first attempt!"All carpentry is a state of mind. It is the assembly of parts, sometimes wood. A good rougher can finish, and a good finisher can rough.Seperating the two, is nothing more than an attempt to maximize profits based on Henry Ford's assembly line theory. Sure, rolls royce still builds one car at a time, but there isn't that much demand, that the world needs more rolls's factories.To those who choose to "do it all". Go for it. Don't be criticizing those that specialize. Specialization can lead to higher quality, and higher profits. It may no be as fun, but then again, some prefer it!Blue
*blue - you like the rocket too? Many of my friends swore by them, I always liked the feel of fiberglass. - yb
*Don't forget the urban/smaller than urban divide. I left a city with a population of a million, and there was a good bit of specialisation: commercial carpenters, residential carpenters, rough/trim, doorhangers, stair guys, cabinetmakers, millworkers (not the same thing as cabinetmakers). Like Patrick said, I knew union guys who owned one hammer, nothing else, and only did concrete, and called themselves journeymen. Where I am at now, a population of 90,000 or so in three surrounding towns can't support doorhangers, or stair guys, and most guys are general carpenters. There is a divide between union (who control commercial, by law, here), and non-union residential, and a lot of crews have a trim guy, but that division of rough/trim has been around since I've been in the trades, with guys following their interests. But in a big city, I think we'll see a trend towards more specialisation along with a downward pressure on wages. There was no way a guy hanging doors one day, trim the next, something else the next, could go to work for a framing contractor and make him money right off the bat, not at the prices they were getting when I left the big town.
*Young Bob, there is nothing like the swing of a Rocket, the way they used to make them. The claws were perfect, and no one ever bothered to carry a nail puller. We used to simply drive the claws under the nailhead, and yank! Try that with the chinese junk that they sell you today!Blue
*Young Bob, there is nothing like the swing of a Rocket, the way they used to make them. The claws were perfect, and no one ever bothered to carry a nail puller. We used to simply drive the claws under the nailhead, and yank! Try that with the chinese junk that they sell you today!I used to ue a super cool fiberglass rocket! It had a very thin shaft, ultra thin! One problem; it rang, and also affected my knuckles. I gave it away to a bricklayer.Blue
*Right on Adrian. Big urban areas can support all types of specialists. My current little county has only 90,000 pop., and they tend to do it all! I drive...back to the big city...where the buckaroonies are!Blue
*You sound exactly like those Rocket freeks! I looked all over the place and for the life of me couldn't find one with 'glass shaftas for the rest - I heard you the first time! - yb
*I worked on a framing crew with three other guys building custom houses up to 8,000 sqft. There was quite a bit of overlap of finish guys while we were hanging siding, soffit and fascia and building decks. If we had to do the interior finish as well it would have taken forever. Working for myself I prefer to do it all. I know the framing's right, so everything else is going to be easy. I'm involved in much smaller jobs too. I have noticed though that here in Tennessee, the lazy carpenters give up framing because finish work is easier (lighter boards) and they can just blame it on the framer when it looks like sh*t...Dan
*Mark, In addition to the answers you've received already, there is another reason for specialization. Namely, specialization, cuts down on tool and tooling costs. For instance, if I were to take on a framing job, I would have 3 chop saws, 6 routers, 2 thickness planes, one thickness sander, table saws, shaper, 2 compressors, miter clamps, bisquit machines, dust suckers, not to mention thousands in profile knives, heads, power feeds wings cutters etc etc etc. wasting away. The kind of framing and trim work you are talking about obviously has a huge bearing on the degree of specialization required (by virtue of the type of equipment necessary to do the job, not to mention the experience necessary for the job). But basically, I think specialization started as soon as humans started walking erect. You can bet that the carpenters who did the framing on St. Pauls (for instance) were not the same ones who carved the corbels etc. etc. I am personally all for specialization. In fact, my specialty is all the trim work which falls between my waist and my shoulder blades. Anything higher or lower does not interest me.
*Thats tounge in cheek. I've seen photos of your finishing. I'd guess your studs are all arrissed, plates housed and frame glued and screwed together,
*Speaking of specialisation, isn't there a school now in Chicago ( I think it's a union school) that trains people to frame only. They aren't carpenters who frame, they are framers (claim like a 100% placement rate). I know there is a school that trains architectural woodworkers, as against cabinetmakers or carpenters who specialise. There are at least two schools in Canada that train people to work in the new highly automated cabinet and furniture factories; not cabinetmakers by a long shot, I've heard the unions are accepting a new classification for some of these jobs as 'semi-skilled'. I imagine it is the same for guys building pre-fab houses in factory situations. Maybe the future is more specialisation, but also a greater divide between the really skilled tradesman, and the semi-skilled laborer.
*Seems we are going the same way. Even have guys here now who just hang fascia and do nothing else. ( thats all they are licensed to do )