Read an interesting article in JLC, the need to stop the free estimate. I’ve got one problem with the article, charge $50 NOT $20, and really cut out the window shoppers. I can’t think of any other reason for the lack of call backs when I leave messages. I would gladly pay the 50, time and gas aren’t cheap. It would cut alot of BS and we could finally get some work done.
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Theres a whole thread over at the JLC site about it including the guy that wrote it.
When Sonny Lycos used to be here in BT it was a never ending discussion.
Hard for an old timer to charge never mind a newbie in the field when everyone else is giving free estimates. Great concept but so is a time machine.
The thing that irks me is that ALL appliance repair people get to charge for estimates and its $80 and up around here. Wonder how renovation contractors fell through the cracks.
Must be a whole lot less appliance repair people that all belong to the same club!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFexyK8J1Iw
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
I think the market that you work in really dictates wether you can charge for estimates. For instance, here in S.E. Nebraska, no one that I am aware of my competitors charges for an estimate.
75% of our work is exterior reno and remodel (siding, roofing, decks, porches, additions etc.) If I got a call to estimate somebodies basic siding and deck project, (that all of my competitors would bid for free) and said the estimate was 50 bucks, I would not bid another job the rest of the year. And 65-70% of our leads come off refferal.
OTOH if I could charge 50 bucks a pop I would make an additional 10 grand a year just doing esimates........
to be honest if you are doing roofing, siding, decks I would'nt expect for you to charge for an estimate. its seems estimates for those things are pretty simple since you do it all the time and the material lists are all similar
when I was in the roofing and siding business all I had to do was open a word file and change the name, date and contract price to generate a proposal
I would expect a guy who is doing renovations and larger new construction to charge for putting together a lengthy estimate
Thing is - when you have your costing down to t a T, it is easy to do that an include the estimating cost in your overhead, but you still charge for estimating - it is just rolled into the finish price.But more complicated jobs like remodels or whole house customs mean much more time on the estiomate.Andy compared to appliances but that is inaccurate.
A two hour estimate for a twenty thousand dollar siding job vs a two hgour diagnostic run for a three hundred dollar appliance repair, when the customer is more likely to just say - forget it, we were thinking of buying a new dishwasher anyway
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" OTOH if I could charge 50 bucks a pop I would make an additional 10 grand a year just doing esimates........ "
You're missing the point here, the intent is to eliminate wasted visits to "tire kickers" who are not serious about their project, not to find a new revenue stream. As stated in the article, the fee is credited back on the contract price. Mr Stone also indicates that you must explain the rationale behind the charge, one being that you're a PROFESSIONAL, (aren't you?) and by visiting the site and speaking with the owner, you are using your expertise to advise the owner as to what may or may not be appropriate for their job, location,and conditions etc....That's what they're paying you for...your expertise and expert advice on their project!!
It's also about qualifying leads, if they're just shopping price, then you don't want them anyway, they will never pay your rate, so why waste your time giving free expert advice!!? your lawyer doesn't do that does he? nor do most other professionals!
The more pros that follow this practice the easier it will be to justify this charge and maybe it will help eliminate the fly-by-nighters who plague our industry!!
It's now up to the contractor who charges for estimates to show the owner the expertise he/she will be hiring,by giving good advice and distancing themselves from the fly-by-nighter, or even the unqualified contractor.
Geoff
I saw this article as well. On its face I agree with the premise, but I was disappointed when I read further and saw that the author was suggesting a $20. fee. Further, he then offered to credit this to the prospect if they became a client.
This makes no sense. After reading quite a bit here at BT, I doubt that many BT'ers are charging $20/hr. I know that I can't even come close to that. For that matter, I don't think anyone in my area is capable of staying in business at $20/hr.
I also know that unless you are walking to the neighbors house to look at a job you are easily going to eat up 15-30 min of travel time. The author suggests that it isn't uncommon to spend 30 min. driving 20 miles in LA.
So lets say this round trip estimate costs you 30 min travel time and 30 min on the job to look at the project (a modest amount of time IMO for even for a simple deck project).
You then go further and provide advice- (another 20-30 min. discussing their wants and needs). . .
take enough measurements to provide a detailed material list or a drawing (another 20-30 min), and then provide a written proposal (even modifying a previous one, still 30 min) all for $20-35 dollars???
Conservatively, I think you have 2 hrs involved for this effort.
But you should go even farther than this. Offer to give that $20-35 dollars back to them if they accept your proposal.
Maybe I am on a rant, I don't have all the answers for how to approach every proposal situation in my own business, but this method doesn't address the real cost of operating a business. In my opinion, the suggested amount to charge is woefully inadequate and adding insult to injury, you are to return it upon landing the job. So how is that not a free estimate?
The only valid point I see is that charging for a proposal is likely to eliminate some tire kickers, but using the methodology described isn't likely to weed all of them out. $20-35 dollars isn't much of a barrier of entry for the consumer to "kick the tires" of building a deck/garage/addition.
You could spend several hours on each project proposal, collect your $$ and find out that you did not get the job. You can't live on $35 for 2-3 hours of work.
Now maybe you can account for this effort by including these marketing costs into your overhead and allowing all of your customers to each pay a small part of the time you spend giving "free estimates". But the proposed method isn't going to cut it.
You actually do charge for estimates, just not the person receiving the estimate. You factor this in the cost of doing business. It all goes into overhead.
I don't dispute the fact that your overhead can include sales/estimating time. But the referenced article suggests that you make the leap from giving away all the time to prepare an estimate, (i.e. not recovering these costs in your overhead), to charging a nominal fee to make it worth your while.
I am just at odds with the amount of the fee (in this case) and the suggestion of giving this money back.
To me it is a shell game.
"Mr. Client, I'll refund you this proposal fee since you hired me. I did all this (proposal) work that had value and I couldn't possibly do it for free if you don't hire me, but since you did, I will now donate that work out of the goodness of my heart."
That estimating/proposal/sales work has value, and customers should be charged accordingly.
Allocating sales/proposal time into overhead, thereby spreading the costs to everyone doesn't allow you to screen out the tire-kickers. In fact, it just means that your paying customers pay more for you to spend time with people who have no intention of hiring you.
Your services just got more expensive to the paying clients so that you can waste time with people who don't pay. If anything, that is a justification for why to charge for proposals.
I don't think that's what the article was saying at all.....He didn't say to eliminate the overhead of estimating but to charge for the initial consult/job visit.....that's where everyone is losing out, going to jobs you know, or suspect, are just a waste of time. If you credit that expense back to the H.O. if you get the job,fine , but at least if you charge $20 or even $50 for the initial consult, you know the customer is at least somewhat interested and if you don't get the job you at least cover gas expenses.
you're right in some respects it is a shell game, but I'd rather play the game of offering a credit for the initial consult, than to give out 6 estimates for free then have to roll those expenses into the one job I do get. Maybe the fee should be $75...I don't know, that's just another nuance to work out in your particular geographic area.
Geoff
I think most of us in the business have been thinking hard about this subject for a long time. I know I have for years. Most of my ideas about how to eliminate the time-wasters from the get-go are great in theory, but always have some side-effect that I don't find acceptable (like turning away potential GOOD customers who just need to have the opportunity to get to know me!). Fact is, there will always be tire-kickers, and we will always have competition willing to placate them w/ 'free estimates'. If you're the type of guy who has more work than he can handle--by all means, you need to be charging for EVERY estimate. The rest of us, though, need to be a little more deft at picking those estimates we want to do for those customers who need to be finessed a bit.The way I see it, there are three parts to this problem: how to weed out time-wasters; how to get properly compensated for our valuable consulting/estimating time for the serious HOs to whom we DO pay an initial visit; and how to discern which is which--preferably at the initial phone call stage.Some ideas that have appeared to work for me:
Learn discernment. Learn it well enough that a first 15 minute phone call can eliminate the true time-wasters (TTWs). Graciously offer them a verbal ballpark (all the while making them understand that the verbal estimate ain't worth the paper it's written on). Tell them to think about it, and if that sounds like it's w/in their budget, to call you back to set up a home visit (for which you may need to ask a mileage fee--payable upon arrival) If they decide later they are serious, they may call you back. If not, congrats, you just got rid of a TTW at a mere 15 minute cost to yourself.When it comes to the actual written estimate (design, take-off, process and 'value-engineering'), depending on the size and scope, you may either take the gamble of having your time wasted and just write it out, offer it, and be done with it..OR you may be a little more creative in pulling in a potential customer...
Here's a thought: the customer doesn't want his time wasted any more than you do. Make them invest at least as much time in the planning/estimate phase as you have--let them have an equal stake in it (there's a lot more to be said about that--maybe later). Write the estimate, then offer them just a peek at the proposal. Give them the bottom line. It goes something like this: "Dear Mr. and Mrs._____,I've completed your estimate for the bathroom renovation--to include the changes we discussed, and covering all of the details of the planning stage. My written estimates are very thorough and detailed (this estimate has a Scope of 26 points, and is 3 pages long) and I will be happy to send it to you in contract form, which we'll sign and for which I'll pick up a deposit check, if the bottom line is within your budget. If not, we can continue with the planning/design stage and I can continue to amend the proposal as necessary. Here are the cut and pasted numbers:SUBTOTALSLabor: ……………………………................$2,890Materials (ESTIMATED): ……...........$2,730 ESTIMATED TOTAL ………..................$5,620Please let me know your thoughts as soon as you can. Feel free to call anytime to discuss the project.Regards, ___________ "This tactic puts the ball in their court, so to speak, and can force a decision (one way or the other) when one wasn't forthcoming. If they decide the price is WAY off the mark, at least now you have their true budget; no longer the pretend one. They may have wasted your time, but they get nothing for it...Your precious estimate doesn't get into the hands of their 'handy' brother-in-law who was vying to do the work anyway, but didn't know how to estimate it. If the plan was all along to give a 'number' to another guy to bid against, well, he now has your numbers, but no idea what they mean, or how you got them. Good luck with that..I further explain that my estimates are both INFORMATIVE and PROCEDURAL and may include detailed specifications and material take-offs. The estimate then, is sort of a proprietary 'recipe' custom made for their project. I ain't just going to hand it over without at least a specific PROMISE by the HO to intend to go through w/ the project, w/ ME as their contractor. Thereby, the customer may feel compelled to commit, or at the very least, they become further drawn in to your now JOINT project. Once everyone gels into a team, most people become very reluctant to abandon all and go with another contractor in the end. Of course, if they like the numbers, they're happy to agree to a contract and a deposit at this point. Everyone wins.I clearly have not hashed these ideas totally out, mind you. No strategy is bulletproof. Sometimes we lose our estimating time in the end, w/ little or no meaningful compensation. Even charging $100 for an estimate is hardly an offset if you don't ultimately get the job. And the TTWs the $100 potentially drove away also inevitably cost you a few lost opportunities of GOOD customers you missed because they were unaccustomed to a charged estimate. Everything is give and take.I like to think that some of these ideas have over-all gained me valuable customers and made my business more efficient and profitable. So far, so good, anyway.Has anyone else tried anything like my 'cut and paste the numbers' method as a lead-in to giving a full estimate?
A couple of points:
I agree the estimate fee should be higher than 20 bucks and said so in my original post. As to wether it is credited towards the job or not, what difference does it make. You mark up your materials whatever %, increase the markup1% or less if you feel you have to get that estimate fee back. If it were me, I'd gladly give 50 bucks back on a job totaling 5000, a job you got. And you saved alot of aggravation with window shoppers who were just going to waste your time.
Secondly, I think Ryan posted it helps HO's be taken seriously. As a HO, it would be nice not to be grouped with those who are clueless of the value of others time, and have sticker shock with every estimate, reasonable or otherwise.
Yeah, I just recently tried it.
Client needs a bathroom remodel. He wants it gutted to the studs, new drywall (including ceiling), tub, tile in tub surround, floor, new vent, new lighting (adding some cans too), new toilet, vanity, sink, door, trim, paint, towel bars, etc.
I met with him, discussed what he wanted (keep or replace ceiling, walls, vent, etc) offered alternatives. The tub is pink, and the tub surround is one of those fiberglass surrounds over the old ceramic tile. It is full of holes and duct tape. Seriously. No question that was going to be replaced.
I work up the numbers, and email him just the total. I told him if he's serious about hiring me, I could write up a contract with detailed specifications. I just didn't have the time at that moment to do that.
Now for me (and I know I'll get some guff for this here) it's easier if the customer picks out and buys his own tub, fixtures, etc. All the finish stuff. Then I don't have to spend a couple of hours with the customer deciding on which towel bars to get, and outlay any cash. Sure I miss the markup, but I miss the hassle that is supposed to cover the markup. Anyway, I digress. I tell him $8,500. He buys the tub, tile, & finish stuff, I buy stuff like drywall, mud, thinset, backer, wax ring...
He sends me back the quote from the competitor, which is $7,900, but includes allowances for the fixtures and tile & stuff. But it does NOT include removing & replacing the walls, ceiling, and door. Competitor also say he will pour a shower pan instead of removing & replacing the cast iron tub. It's a condo with a full bath and a powder room. I would think they would want at least one tub in the place.
So he's confused. He doesn't know if I'm gouging him or if the other guy is too good to be true, neither, or both. He's not comparing apples to apples, but it wouldn't be hard for him to get to that point. Figure out what a tub, toilet, tile, etc cost.. He's gotta pick them out anyway. Then compare those costs to the allowances the other guy gave.
I emailed him back, and noted the differences in the two proposals, and the points mentioned above. I figured my proposal wasn't out of line, considering the differences in the scope of work, and the allowances the other guy was stating.
Haven't heard back from him, so I suppose I saved an hour or so by not having to draw up a formal contract.
But then again, did I lose the job, because if I sent him a detailed contract, including specifications and everything, would I have looked much more professional than the proposal he got from the other guy (which, IMHO, was not very professional or detailed). ??
Who knows. Maybe he was tire kicking. He was a student in some classes I taught, so we had prior contact. Maybe he was just looking for affirmation that the first guy's numbers were OK. Maybe he's decided that both prices are beyond his pocketbook right now, and will live with the duct tape a little longer. I don't know. I guess I should contact him and find out, eh?Pete Duffy, Handyman
Hmmm.. Well, first of all, I propose emailing the 'cut and pasted' numbers..in other words, you have the written estimate in hand, you're just not willing to show all your cards right now. You have a grand total. Does it match his budget or no? Yes it does..great, we have a job. No? Fine, move on and file your estimate away for future reference.. But the other guy never sees it. Bottom line, Pete; you said you thought your proposal was "not out of line". You need to live with the fact that perhaps the other guy's was. Or perhaps it wasn't. The client was just not sufficiently educated about the differences in the two proposals. Perhaps that was your bad. Perhaps he's just irredeemably ignorant. Who knows. Not your problem, as I see it.But, your real worry:>>But then again, did I lose the job, because if I sent him a detailed contract, including specifications and everything, would I have looked much more professional than the proposal he got from the other guy (which, IMHO, was not very professional or detailed). In my experience..No. I'd wager almost anything that the HO was shopping price only. If he wasn't, he'd have at least asked you to compare apples to apples. Intelligent people (Clients you WANT) ask questions. They know enough to not hire the "cheapest guy". They want the best value, maybe..and that's good. You just have to convince them that YOU are the one who can provide that. ..You know, the more I look at and think about your post, the more I think your (almost) customer is a moron. And I've had not a few similar experiences to know. My bet is that this guy was trying to gouge YOU. Move on and be thankful. What are you really out? A few hours of your time? Nature of the beast. I actually had a similar experience not long ago..I bid a metal roof job for some 'friends'. Their roof was HORRENDOUS--wavy, rotten, sunken..Fascia was rotten..rafter tails decomposing..the roof was complex and metal would be an expensive prospect. I knew they had a tight budget. I tried to steer them towards 35 year shingles as a compromise to remain within a realistic budget.. They wouldn't have any of it. They wanted metal. I explained to them some cost-saving factors (using stock trim, etc.), but they insisted on the premium product and all the fancy trimmings. I worked up the estimate.As is often the case, they had champaign tastes and a nickel for beer. After spending probably 10 or more hours of my time on their project, they responded to my VERY detailed estimate w/ "I'm sorry, but we've decided to go with another contractor who closer met our budget." Excuse me, but WHAT budget? (That was the first I'd heard of it).I saw their new roof not too long ago. The guys that did it used stock trim after all (HD drip edge and crappy BUR rake trim), they did NOT replace the rotten fascia, or repair the rafter tails, the roof was NOT shimmed and strapped, as I proposed to do to attempt to achieve a descent flat roof plane, they RE-USED the rotten pipe boots, and their screw alignment was simply NOT. I doubt they even gave them the legitimate 26 g. metal. ALL these details were specified in my written estimate. I could have easily deleted them to compete w/ the joke of a price my 'competitor' gave them, and I offered as much. But it went unheeded. They went w/ the lowest bidder after all, and even now, care nothing about the inferior product they received. They're just happy they saved...$520 on a $6500 roof job! They have no regret and no shame. But now they want me to "give them a bid" on wiring up their DIY addition that "no one else will return their calls about". ..Damn shame I'm so busy for the next 7 years..
Edited 3/13/2007 11:03 pm ET by pinko
anytime I get a customer who insists on only the best, it sends up a red flag, especially if the proposed project looks as unmaintained and neglected as your customers roof did. The first question I would insist on is a budget number from them. Since you had offered money saving options to them, which they refused, I would want to know what they thought they might be getting into, as far as cost is concerned, if they refused to talk budget, I would politely ballpark a high number, and see how they react, asking is this in your budget range?, or something similar.
I think you could have saved yourself a bunch of time by asking some direct questions, since they seemed to indicate a willingness to spend money i.e. wanting only the top end of materials.
Sounds to me like they got taken, since they only saved $520 compared to what they would have gotten from you for your price. Those are the type of "bottom line is everything,quality means nothing" people we want to avoid like the plague. Asking for a fee might have scoped that out ahead of time.
Why not try that tactic on their request for the addition wiring bid? see what they say, since no one else will return their calls. :)
Good Luck!
Geoff
>>anytime I get a customer who insists on only the best, it sends up a red flag, especially if the proposed project looks as unmaintained and neglected as your customers roof did.Indeed, the red flags were waving for me too. But as I said, they were 'friends'..we both knew they were NOT wealthy, but they had indicated to me that they had somewhat of a financial windfall come to them, w/ which they wanted to buy a metal roof. Incidentally, I most certainly did give them a ball park--sq.ft.--number right off the bat, which they seemed to have no prob. with.But you're right...if I'd have asked for a fee up front(would you waive a fee for friends?), it probably would have had the desired effect. Actually, they knew very well how much time I'd invested in their project (my wife had told them), and I was a bit offended that they never did OFFER a fee after the fact ("sorry we couldn't give you the job, Pinko, but could we at least pay you something for your time?"). Oh, well, what are friends for...Wait, I know...for free estimates and free work. Right.
Oh, well, what are friends for...
Wait, I know...for free estimates and free work. Right.
hey, wait a minute...I thought that was what family was for! :)
I have my own "friends and family" plan - I don't work for either.
If they need a hand for the very infrequent hour or two, fine, buy me a cold one when we're done. A paid gig? No way.
-Norm
That is a similar story to what i just told.if I had known that they were "bidding" this job out, I would've had the coice to sell them harder, or to simply inform them from the beginning that there was no sense in my wasting time on an estimate if they were price shopping because I would have known from the start that the other guys bisd would be cheaper than mine.we could probabably all recount dozens of storeys like these where customers screwed themselves out of their own ignorance.
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Yeah, I agree with what you and Piffin have said.
Like I said, I met this guy last fall. He mentioned a bathroom project coming up around February, and so he contacted me about that time. I didn't think he was shopping price, because in the class I told him that on the bigger projects, I'm going to be more expensive. But he called me anyway, so I though he was serious.
And Piffin, I usually do go with a professional detailed proposal, but since I felt I already had a relationship with this guy, an email could suffice for the beginning, to be followed up with the nuts and bolts. I think that based on our discussion when I was in his bathroom, and seeing the proposal from the other guy, I doubt he would have read it anyway. I say this because he distinctly told me he wanted the drywall ripped out, and the ceiling, and the other proposal clearly said the drywall stays. That and the new tub vs. shower pan tells me he didn't read the other guy's proposal either.
I don't lose sleep over it or anything. I don't do much bidding or estimating in my business (mostly hourly handyman stuff), so I'm not out a lot of time. I am getting good at spotting the red flags, and weeding out tirekickers on the phone.
Most of the people call me, describe what they need done on their list, ask if I can do it. I tell them yes, or ask intelligent questions. A few don't even ask what my hourly rate is, and most of them only ask as an afterthought after we set up an appointment. The ones who call and ask "Do you give free estimates?" right off the bat are waving the red flag. Someday I'm going to say, "Yes, my free estimate is $75 per hour labor, plus materials." Have to bite my tongue, though.
I guess with these customers, you go in after the first guy screwed up the job, and fix everything that wasn't done right. Then the project ends up costing the customer more than if they would have hired us in the first place.Pete Duffy, Handyman
I would be assuming that he also sent your numbers to the other guy for feedback andcomparative analysis and that the other guy did the better job of selling instead of just replying with an email.But it is alwyas hard to know what is in a potential customers mind.When I quitdoing free estimates several years ago, it was because of a customer who, like this example of yours, did not know beans from broth.They met with me based on strong recommendations of a freind of theirs and talked as tho I would be doing the job. They had an archy already and I met with him too and he seemed profoundly impressed with me and my suggestions.So I figured the only reason why they were asking for an "estimate" onm the job was to have a ballpark cost to prepare for.I spent a few days on the estimate to be as accurate as possible and made my presentation, explaining everything that it included or excluded.A few days later, they called to let me know, "I'm sorry, but you didn't get the bid"I was flabbergasted. I was never given any indication that they considered this a BID and not an "estimate" as they had asked for. Since then, I carefully expain to potential clients to make sure that they understand the difference between one and the other.I would not have wasted my time had I known they were courting another price from the guy who got the job. His help was earning far less than my guiys - with a good reason. My estimate was 55K and his bid was 50K. The final quality of the work was far different than that, and my competitor later confided to me that he wished I had got that job. He also did not know they were conmsidering it a BID.They were very nice people but totally ignorant of terms and the process.I learned, moved on, and now spend more time educating clients and get paid for doing my estimatiing. I have already done much of my selling before starting the design or estimate. Then,with a deposit in hand, they already have anestablished relationship with me seured by that money. They are far lesss likely to fly the coop of mis-communicate because whenthey write that check they are making a small commitment that grows like a seed.
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"The more pros that follow this practice the easier it will be to justify this charge and maybe it will help eliminate the fly-by-nighters who plague our industry!!"Can you envision the day when a newspaper article in the weekend paper advising HOs how to find a quality contractor says to check references, check to see that they are insured, and find out if they charge for an estimate because the good ones charge while the fly-by-nighters tend to give out free estimates?would be nice, but that's not going to happen in my lifetime...;)
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The local newspaper here in Seattle actually helped on this matter. Yesterday they ran an article about the cost of living here (Which I cut out and will show to any big mouth potential clients if necessary).
The problem was last week we had a late snow and the workers who have to live so far away because of the cost of living in the city could not get to work at the local university. The newspaper reported that a worker must make $38 per hour to live in a median priced condo or $50 per hour to own a median priced home here.
Here, giving bids is no laughing matter because of the travel time (the whole city is a traffic jam) takes so long. I try to give a ballpark quote (somewhat high to cover whatever) from past experience and if they are still interested I will go break it down.
Hey Piffin ,
probably not in mine either........ but the idea of charging for a site visit does help to weed out the "tire kickers" .... those who are just looking for the cheapest price, period.
Geoff
"because the good ones charge while the fly-by-nighters tend to give out free estimates?"if the practice is to charge for estimates, the fly-by-nighters will charge too.
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter WFR
"But when you're a kibbutzer and have no responsibility to decide the facts and apply the law, you can reach any conclusion you want because it doesn't matter." SHG
So -
You don't mind giving away ten grand a year?
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You don't mind giving away ten grand a year?
I know two guys in my area here who've tried charging a fee for estimates, both implemented the system about the same time, one ran it for around 6 months, the other for nearly a year. In both cases the simple stuff was still free (simple decks, window replacements,roofs) and the design/advise/estimate stuff was billed at their hourly rate, if they landed the job it was a credit.
The first saw his total # of estimates decrease by 1/3 the second by 1/2. The % of jobs landed/ jobs bid went up 10%-15 % but still a decrease in overall volume.
I am not saying the idea does not have validity, I was only saying that some markets make more sense than others for it.
Sounds like they increased their efficiency drasticly and they found another benefit you don't list.They ended up with a better class of customer weeded out by the process. They now have a higher percentage of intelligent, educated, better paying clinetele
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As a homeowner I would gladly pay $50 for an estimate. It would do several things that would be benificial for both parties.
1. Lets the Pro know I am serious about the project
2. If the Pro knows I'm serious about the project I will probably get much better service. IE returning phone calls promptly and keeping appointments.
Right now I am working on a home addition and so far my avergae is about 2/3 for returned phone calls and so far I am running 1/3 for home visits. So again, I would gladly pay the $50 estimate fee.
Ryan
Here's my estimate:
$299,950 +/-
Now you can send me the $50. :)Pete Duffy, Handyman
No way on the $50 estimate fee.
In the past year I had 3 referred contractors come to my house to quote the finishing of my basement. I would have went ahead with any one of them if they had actually said they could have done the work as I wanted. Ductwork in my basement was a bit of a disaster, so everyone wanted to use various pitiful attempts to box-out or hide the ductwork, rather than fix the ductwork. Nobody would even quote the work I wanted, instead they quoted what they would do.
I had quotes ranging from $10K, $15K to $25K.
Sounds like a lot of $ when they still can't give me the clean finished look I wanted.
Did the work myself for less than $10K (including labour and paid help) and got exactly what I wanted.
Home Depot has a fee per quote service - would never use it. No way I want to feel any sort of obligation to some yahoos (HD or otherwise) for my $50 fee when nobody seems to be able to quote or perform half decently.
ps - my wife, who wanted the contractors to do the work in the 1st place, is very happy with the finished product.
I think your missing the point. I believe everyone should be compensated for their time. If someone shows up, looks at the job all of 2 seconds, quotes you a price, than OK, no fee. If another guy comes by, looks things over carefully, makes notes on what you want, returns or mails a detailed estimate covering what you discussed with a detailed break down of the job, he/she should be compensated. If it were me I'd pay that guy, even if I went with someone else.
I think your missing Deezel's point, he's saying he called 3 contractors to quote some work, and none of them quoted what he wanted done i.e. fix the duct work, then finish the basement. I agree with him, there are far too many contractors who just quote the job the way they want to do it, regardless of what the homeowner wants, the're not listening to the customer!!! Sure there will be times the homeowner is asking for somthing to be done wrong or something that can't be done, but that's where a pro can step in and explain to the owner why it can't be done or what the pitfalls may be, but the final decision is up to the owner as to what they want done.
Some of these guys do what they do because they lack the qualifications to do it right, so they just try and buffalo the customer into their way of looking at the work. Some may just not have the imagination to come up with alternative ideas.
What if each of these guys wanted to be paid for their time, but none of them had bid on the work as the owner wanted it done? Then what? That's what he's saying, why pay for something he didn't want in the first place?
Deezel , correct me if I misunderstood your post.
Geoff
So even if it was "only" a $10k job, at $50/quote he could have talked to 5 or 6 contractors...$300 against a job that large seems inconsenquential to me.
All 3 contractors wouldn't listen to his concerns for what he wanted for a finished product? Either there's a real miscommunication issue going on or he managed to get 3 real bozos out to his house. How did he select the 3 contractors he did talk to? Were they referrals? Were they the only guys to return his call? Did he just pick them out of the phone book?
There's an obligation to perform some level of due diligence on both sides of the equation.
-Norm
What crossed my mind is the possibility that what he was asking for was an impossibility
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What crossed my mind is the possibility that what he was asking for was an impossibility
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I hear ya - maybe an unsafe/illegal change..."that return duct is just too darned big, make it 4x smaller & re-route it so I can use the space"...I've had similar conversations with customers, I quote what I can/should do but at the end of the day they find someone to do it their way or they do it themselves.
-Norm
Hey Norm/Piffin,
That may be a fair comment in some cases. I don't think so in this one.
Ducts that duck under a joist because the hole was cut in the wrong place are a real pain in the . . . ceiling. I re-used all the same pieces so it's not like I was constricting anything worse than it was. I cut off 6 feet of cold air return that wasn't being used - beyond the cold air inlet, and rotated the main heat supply to fit snuggly beside a steel beam. Nothing got constricted - just rotated and relocated. In fact, if anything the equivalent pipe length would have been seriously reduced since I threw out a dozen unnecessary elbows - and then taped all the seams up I could get to.
yes - we bought a brand new shiny lemon
Incidentally - does anyone know what you get out of a 5" round duct that goes 60' feet with 5 elbows . . . nothing.
My kids rooms are freezing - am considering putting some sort of register fan in place - but don't like the cord idea.
Does anyone here pay themselves for the time to do the bid and deduct that from the business taxes?
Not sure what you mean by that?I'm incorporated and pay myself a salaryS-corp income flows through.Everybody pays themselves first - right?
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Geoff
What I'm trying to say about paying for estimates makes some assumptions. Deezel described a specific experience he had. Were I he, I would not want to pay them for their estimates either. I'm making a statement about an estimate done correctly, something requiring time, effort and expertise on the part of the contractor, and something that satisfies the customers request, price aside.
Edited 3/15/2007 8:18 pm ET by dockelly
Thanks Geoff,
You are absolutely right.
It was painful enough to have to work around contractors busy schedules, just to get them to quote the job. To be fair, I already had an approximate price in mind. But it got pretty frustrating trying to find a contractor (all 3 of which were referred to me by reputable dealers that I already work with), then to have them ignore the simple stuff I wanted done because they thought it was "too much trouble" and I quote from 2 of them. Unbelievable.
Once they said that, I didn't care what their price was - they weren't getting the job. I did accept their quotes so I could get some kind of ballpark price for the work. Turned out to be a large ballpark - something is seriously wrong when 3 guys quote the same work with such a huge spread. Sorry - that may not be huge to some people - but for a bit of ductwork, wiring and drywall in a 700 ft² space, that seemed a bit much - all the walls were up and insulated already.
I actually found a company that did commercial ductwork to make the pieces I wanted - for a $100 bucks and threw in all the fasteners and advice I could handle.
That's service - in fact I offered them an extra $20 for their time and the extras and they wouldn't take it. I will definitely recommend / use them again.
My point is, I'm not prepared to pay for a quote everyone else gives for free.
My experience shows me you just have to be persistent and stick to your guns - even if that means doing it yourself sometimes.
Deezel
ps - I am actually an estimator for my day job - and yes - I get paid for my work - but the retailers / contractors I work for bury the price of the estimate in their final bill. I guess they understand that you always win some and lose some - but your odds are better if you treat the customer better and give them what they want.