How many of you have had problems mixing friends and business? In my previous business, I made many friends, including my best friend of 12 years, from meeting them at work, but there we had a fixed list of prices and of course there is no such thing in contracting.
I recently had a close friend who has a successful but slowing retail business call me in to discuss some remodeling. I had three meetings with he and his manager and ultimately gave them an estimate of 9K for some work. This was just a rough guess, as I told them because it involves taking down a wall that has some “mystery features” that I won’t go into. I told them that it may come in lower if the worst case scenario that we had discussed didn’t come to pass. This estimate included all the mechanical work (removing elec from the demoed walls, some ductwork, installing elec and network in a new office), all needed patching of wall surfaces, floors, painting, etc etc. They responded that it was more than they wanted to spend and we had a meeting about less expensive alternatives.
Now I get a phone call saying “well, so and so’s BIL is a carpenter and he quoted 1600 to remove the 2 walls, and build out the two new ones.” First off, that price seems rediculously low to start, (we’re talking about a good amount of repair work upon removal of the walls, and includes installing two doors and an interior window looking out onto the sales floor). Also it’s sort of irrelevant in light of my bid whcih included every last item to complete the job.
I’m torn between just wishing them well with this project, and giving them the scope of work I used to prepare my estimate based on their requested items and trying to make the point that they aren’t comparing apples to apples.
PaulB
Replies
I'm not in the remodeling business but I did just have a beautiful house built by a good friend of mine. It truned out great, the house and our friendship.
If I were you I would try something along this line "Joe, I'll give you two options. If you want my advice about this project as a friend - let me know. Otherwise, if you want to keep this business-only and you want to go with the lowest price, I wish you well". Odds are good he'll ask for your friendly advice, and that's when you can give him the Reader's Digest version of why you think the job needs more than $1600 worth of work. Tell him if he wants to get another bid that's no skin off your nose. But maybe you even want to give him a few names of reputable carpenters that can quote it for him.
- Rob
Chances are his bil is a carpenter, however there is a big difference between a carpenter and a GC. Heck everybodys a carpenter all you need is a nailbag and a few power tools.
His BIL probably works for a guy as a carpenter, so has no experience in pricing and the rest of the taco that comes with the job described. Probably carries no insurance, and doesn't really understand the scope of all the work.
If it was me I would explain the difference to bud and then let it go, the numbers are so far apart, really wouldn't matter if you quoted half your price, he already has BIL's # in his head.
Some times it's just better to walk away
Thanks guys, you've helped me be less p*ssed off. It's been a rough couple weeks and my first reaction was to be offended by the whole situation...
PaulB
Same situation. I have a friend that I met when I wore a white shirt & tie, he was a vendor and supplied items to us. We got along very well, and 3+ yrs after I started remodeling he asked me to give a price to remodel his kitchen. I got that job (still going on), and it's going well.
One day he said he wanted a price to put tile in the den, about 750 sf. I know he has some cracks in the slab, so I included a complete layer of Ditra. And I know what kind of results he and DW demand, so I added a factor for that. And I added for moving furniture twice and working around the people etc, and came up with a price.
Couple of days later DW says they're looking at alternates, cuz it was out of the budget. I didn't really want to do it anyweay cuz I could see a lot of headaches. Anyway, I went to my friend and told him that I understood, and if he wanted to use someone else, like a cheapie tile store, that was fine. And I even worked into the converdsation that I preferred that he use someone else, cuz if I did the work, everytime they saw the floor they would remember that they could have got it dopne for less with someone else. Buyers remorse. And I would rather stay frioends with them.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Stick by your price, and your friend will stick by you. Tell him why, and if he wants to use the BIL, then wish him well and tell him you hope the project goes great, then let it go. Do not, do not, do not alter your price or cut yourself short in any way, because then you'll be pizzed off at yourself and then at him for asking you to 'do better', which was perfectly his right to do so.
I know it's hard, but I just went through it with a friend. I had done a lot of work for her and she always had a tendency to want to get things done cheap...but have the job well done. Finally I had to tell her I could not do the bathrooms for her, because (this was hard) her budget price was just too cheap, and I loose money on that sort of thing, and I was not willing to 'cut her a break'. She wasn't happy but ultimately it was the right thing, as we are still good friends.
It's just business, no fault on anyone's part.
Sometimes friends and business don't mix, but sometimes they go along very well together.
I think that the way to do business with friends is to cut
them a lot of slack pricewise, and expect them to reciprocate
on the flip side.In other words, if you are normally a cheapskate, you should
turn right around and go with the largesse, some nice round numbers.Likewise, if you are going to sell something to a friend, then
make it a token payment rather than driving a real world bargain.This is for real friends and family, not mere acquantances.
I try to avoid doing business with old friends. Fortunately I don't have many so it works out lol. Anyway I price it like any other work and if they call fine and if not fine. No hard feelings and no justifications. But frankly I hope they don't. And I do the same with relatives. You go and work for little or free for your sister in law and for some reason they feel the need to whip out the microscope to check your work. So, all work the same price, same attitude, same service level, same warranty. Period. DanT
Paul,
you have done fine---don't worry.
What I have settled on after years of tinkering is that I only have 2 prices----FULL price---or FREE.
virtually anytime I have tried the discounted price----help someone out type of thing---it comes back to bite me in the rear. THOSE are the people who become hyper critical and picky.
So---if I really want to help someone---it's free----and since it's free---I don't listen to any complaints, or warranty work----tough---I did it free---what more do you want?
Over the years I have managed to get FREE---down to---oh, basically my parents---and only small stuff for them.
EVERYBODY else is full price----and usually I bump the price up on them----and do my absolute best to achieve perfection.
the funny thing is---the people who were expecting a cut rate price----and are shocked by your high price---tend to go somewhere else for a bargain price. Almost always they are dis-appointed by the bargain guy----and become HUGE sources of referalls-----they hand out your name and promote you as " the guy I WISH I had do my work"
And the guys you charged full price or more----but did your best to achieve perfection??????? They will promote you as " Paul??? He is pretty expensive-----but man--oh man is he worth it !!!!!"
BTW---the ONE time I have filed a mechanics lein on a customer----it was over a discounted project. The money those people stole ( food from my babies mouths!)-----was the best business skills tution I have paid in 18 years.
Very best of luck to you,
Stephen
All very good advice... thanks guys!
Hazlett is exactly right, in my opinion. For one, when I give a price I never, and I mean Never, quote any lower. As far as good friends are concerened, and I mean very close friends, the price is a big fat zero however it has to be when I get the time. No headaches, no complaints, everyone's happy.
Concerning someone else coming in ridiculously lower in price I don't bother with any reasons to justify my price. ( If you do and get the job you're in trouble before you even start) I apologetically tell them that I wouldn't be able to do the work anyway because a big job I bid 2-3 months ago just came in and I'll be all tied-up for however long.