Read some new stuff lately . Thought Id share one : Attorney General says hes cracking down on the , ” before you dig number ‘. Seems people aren’t calling it enough so hes put some teeth in it. 2500 dollar fine for not calling the number before you dig and waiting the period! 2500 if you commit damage and don’t report it .
I’m requiring it for all footing construction building permits .
Next on the monthly agenda is when should a building professional be called? A licensed plumber ? ETC.
I’ve been running into a lot of homeowner cases where a pro needs to be called just for the safety of the kids. I’ve been used to all my life , ” This is my house and Ill do what I damn well please “. Pee off the back porch and all that stuff men say works till you incorporate it in with a lot of people living close together better known as community development. Then the old man peeing off his porch might offend the preachers wife across the yard and cause her to call the mayor. Then we have tribal council and regulations are formed and born for public engagement of the council regs. Then I come along and enforce it . Anyway , to get back on course here :
You might should call a pro if ;
When a man tries to build a house on a massive sand pile , its time for him to get a builder .
When construction of a commercial building is started with out a clue what the zoning ordinance calls for and he doesn’t know what zone hes in.
If you think you can run roll plastic for your water line in the city and call the inspector when you are ready.
You cant understand why a building permit takes more than 5 minutes of your time , but you are willing to sit inline for a drivers license for two hours.
You can not understand why we waited on you to be picked on over this stupid regulations damn thing .
I guess Ill close for now but I could not resist telling this one .
Woman calls city hall instead of inspector number.” Do I need someone to come out and look at what I’ve done ? ” What have you done mamn? “We’ve started a little project over here and thought we had better call it in . ” What made you think that ? ” The electric company ” . Oh I see , you will have to fill out a building application and the inspector will review it . ” Does he pass many? “
Tim Mooney
Edited 4/20/2004 6:18 am ET by Tim Mooney
Replies
hah, hah, hah... wondered what you've been doing to keep yourself busy.... now i know
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Tim- Post a little more often, will ya. Don't like it when you go so long between posts.
As for not lettin' me pee off my own back porch, why them's fightin' words!!!
Hey Tim,
Yes, please do keep going with this. I run into this stuff all the time, too, and am often finding myself explaining why we need a permit or why we need to wait two more days for the Dig Safe folks to show up.
Like the two buried extension cords that I suppose were running the well house.
Or the gas, electric, water, and plethora of phone lines I've hit that were about 6" deep. And on . . .
Besides, these stories are so funny (until someone gets hurt, I guess).
You could have a regular column in the magazine; "From The Desk Of The Inspector," that would be as educational as anything and funnier than most.
I hope you are enjoying the new job.
DRC
"Like the two buried extension cords that I suppose were running the well house."
Dig-Rite (Dig-Safe, First Call, etc) will only do location for utilities that the belong to the group. At least that is the way that it works locally.
They won't locate private wiring/plumbing like the well service. Also out small city does not belong. And all the city has is a broken metal detector and a maintance guy "claims" that he can dose.
But I knew where part of the sewer line and grinder pump wiring was but his dosing showed then one each side of that. So I dug where he said they where and I was right and missed them.
Here the Dig-Rite groups hires a locating compamy to do this so I guess that you could hire them to locate the other stuff. But when you go through Dig-Rite they don't offer any kind of option like that.
>>I've been running into a lot of homeowner cases where a pro needs to be called just for the safety of the kids. I've been used to all my life , " This is my house and Ill do what I damn well please "
How about this: Carry with you a couple of 3x5 index cards (well, maybe a 5x7) like:
--------------------------------------------------
"This Is My House, I'll Do It As I Darned Well Please'
I hereby acknowledge that I have resisted the Building Inspector's advice and have stated my intention to refuse to follow the rule(s) that the town and state have determined are necessary to ensure the safety of people and of the structure.
In exchange for getting the building guy off of my butt, I hereby agree that:
If the house catches fire, I won't call the fire department.
If anyone is hurt on this property, I will not call the city police or ambulance, and will rely entirely on private companies to take care of my kids, my wife, my guests and me at their standard fees.
If someone breaks into the house, I will first call the Building Department to determine whether appropriate security measures have been used in the house. If, in their sole discretion, they determine that such measures have been properly installed and maintained, I will then, and only then, be allowed to call the police. I recognize that the Building Department is only open 8AM to 5PM on normal business days, and that they respond to inspection requests on a "first in, first out" basis and the adequacy of their staffing levels fluctuates.
I understand that not following the building rules can lead to all sorts of other legal hassles and costs. I waive any right to have an attorney appointed for me if an alleged infraction involves criminal charges.
I promise I will never sell or transfer the house. When I die, to be sure no one else gets stuck with my mistakes, hidden or exposed, I will have the house razed.
"You stay out of my life; I'll stay out of yours."
Signed: _____________________________________________________________
.......... Joe "I know What I'm Doing And I'm Smarter than Everyone Else" Citizen
--------------------------------------------------
As you hand 'em out, explain that they haven't been fully reviewed by the town's counsel, but you're having it looked into.
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CashB has probably already printed and signed your form and is sending it to his parasitic muncipal gov't... :-)
Good post, Tim...keep the building inspector reports coming...
Regards,
Tim Ruttan
Bob , that was funny . I dont care who you are , thats was funny !
Thanks for your time and effort writing it .
Tim Mooney
View ImageWho Dares Wins.
Tim, great, informative post. Question: Does one generally need to call "Miss Dig," (moniker for Lansing, MI area) when digging post holes in the back yard where utilities are not located? I understand the need to call when excavating in front/side yard as utilities are run from the street to the house.
tftt
Lets see if I can cipher that for ya .
HERE , we dont require building permits or otherwise for fences , but;
Who ever does the digging is responseble for any damage plus the 2500 dollar fines . Doesnt matter where you are , because the utility companies do it for you for free. Its a 48 hour wait in business days country or city. Its a service thats offered to you free , or it could get expensive.
I heard a rumor that a fiber optic line cost a cable company 15,000 and they didnt call. That is only rumor at this point, but ;
The state has written 657,000 and some change [ dont have it here , its at the office] of fines already in this state. It was said to be a serious problem that HAD to be dealt with in a timely matter. Signed the attorney general type letter.
Post holes are two feet deep which meet the depth of electric lines here.
Tim Mooney
>I heard a rumor that a fiber optic line cost a cable company 15,000 and they didnt >call. That is only rumor at this point, but ;
I dig all the time. And pop utilities somewhat frequently (usually mislocated or private). And the fiber deal is for real. Two years ago we popped a fiber line that runs I-65 from Chicago to Indianapolis and is a major trunk. The fiber company had an onsite rep while we dug, but they mislocated the line and those cables damage from just pulling (not like a gas line - when you see yellow, you can ease off and usually not pop it, with no service interruption).
Of course ruled not our fault - here you're response within two feet either side of the locate but clear otherwise. That line cost $50,000 / hour backcharge to the locator and 3 hours to fix.
remodeler
> those cables damage from just pulling...
I've heard that the extra slack tied up on the poles here for fiber is to allow for cars to knock the pole down without damaging the line. True? False?
-- J.S.
False.
Those "slack loops" are there to give the splicers some 'slack' when they have to do a repair splice or add a branch line.
I've pulled as much as five miles of continuous fiber through manholes and left slack loops every thousand feet (or so) for future expansion or repair.
The extra slack is sometimes called "service loops", and is used whenever a cable is broken. They do the same "service loop" scenario when they bury fiber optic along railroad tracks, highways, etc.JoeFRenaissance RestorationsVictorian Home Restoration Serviceshttp://www.renaissancerestorations.com
Tim,
I got a buddy thats an electrician. He does a lot of work for farmers. He gets a call to do some electrical work on a dairy farm and looks up to see (not why he was called) a pair of visegrips holding on of the hot legs together on the service drop to the barn. I said "man thats unbelievable". He said " yeah but the real scary thing is the barn needed painted, and the vise grips were the same color as the last paint job!" DanT
Oh that was good!
Holy Cow!
Alright, but the next time I'm charging ya.
>>yeah but the real scary thing is the barn needed painted, and the vise grips were the same color as the last paint job!"
Well there ya go - they're insulated now! No big sweat!
_______________________
Tool Donations Sought
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Thanks to Jeff and David and Jim and Rich and Steven and Mark and Jason and Shep and Jen and Mike and Joe and Bill and Ken for their offers!
Several donations have arrived! Thanks and God bless!
I saw a farmer use coax to run his yard light. Funny part was his son was the county electrical inspector at the time.Who Dares Wins.
I was waiting on Piffin , but I will address this to Mike;
Piffin and I have wore the typing fingers a little talking about licensed contractors. Also to say that this is for everyone . We never disagreed , but we shared different points. The real truth is that we agreed with each other at the time , but anyway on with the monthly report .
I must say that I feel differently now with mixed emotions . I believe we should be trained and licensed to perform our skills , because the amount of work I have seen not competent is scary to be going on all around me . The kicker with a code official is that he doesnt really grade quality or performance. Structure and safety covers most of the codes. Its so nice to work with pros and so trying to work with a novice , not to speak of a beginner . There are a lot of people that are in the industry that aren't properly trained . That doesn't prevent them from working everyday. The real downer seems to be the homeowner doing their own work and causing so many code violations and a bad taste of direction . I seem to be turning at least one job a day down from lack of knowledge in the first place . I belive most all people are good folks and have good intentions , but knowledge is a major set back. We are blessed to have this learning center .
I think the John Cue public would be better served if licensed pros did all the work . I honestly believe it now .
I wish all of you could ride in my car for one week and see for yourself what I see . You all don't get to do that . Its serious to me .
Tim Mooney
Edited 4/21/2004 6:28 am ET by Tim Mooney
They shoulda had an architect to tell them to paint the vise grips with the trim color. ;-)
-- J.S.
It's a good idea to call for a locate anytime you dig. Most public utility easements run around the perimeter of the property..........BUT NOT ALWAYS!!!
Getting a locate covers your arse two ways......it shows you where things are (or are supposed to be), and it lets you off the hook if it was mismarked or not marked at all. Personally, I'd rather see the utility have to eat the repair cost.
When construction of a commercial building is started with out a clue what the zoning ordinance calls for and he doesn't know what zone hes in.
Hey, I worked for that guy last year. he honestly could not understand "what business of the city's what he did in his building." That would be his building advertised as "Class A" lease space.
Permits for TI work? "What's 'TI'?" "Oh, we don't need those . . . "
I am much better away from that snake pit (they may be illegally in the building, as they did not get any intermediate inspections, let alone a final for the CoO . . . )
Never really understood why anyone wouldn't call Nocuts, or the underground locating and marking services by any other name. All of these services that I have used have been very good. Most I had to wait was 24 hours.
What a deal they give. Around here the service is absolutely free and if they fail to locate any utility line and it gets damaged they pay for the repair. Only if you hit a line within 18" of their marks do you have to deal with the utilities and pay. I'm not sure how that deal could be any better.
Calling Nocuts before putting in posts for a fence is free and very smart. Why not call them? Cheap insurance.
Inspectors, I don' t have any problems with them. Sometimes, rarely, what they want isn't what I think is right, a judgement call, but it has never been something completely off the wall. For the most part I like the inspectors I have worked with. I had a couple as instructors. I work at maintaining a relationship. I know them. They know my work. They know I am working hard to do things safely and correctly. They know that if they tell me to do something their way it will be done. Even if I don't like or understand it.
I have a few friends in the trades that are always running scared that they will get caught. They play a constant 'cat and mouse' game with the inspectors and spend a considerable amount of time and effort dodging, massaging and working around inspectors. Had to laugh a few times as they spend more effort avoiding inspections than they would have if they would just do it right the first time. Hard to get paid for the extra stress I suspect.
I don't know.
Tim's one of the few good breed inspectors you might come across. Most of my run-ins have not been too attractive to the palate and left a bad taste.
Local guy here went and used his newly secured title and promptly went out and hassled some old folks to settle a score.
Vocally screams at bosses on site he never even met before in front of his hired help. Not one person in town has a good thing to say about the guy.
In fact petitions are circulated for his removal. Nicknamed 'Little Hitler'. City Manager sent him to counseling for anger management.
One of the funniest things I'd read all year came out of the local newspaper in a buried little two paragraph article.
Apparently he was out in the sticks a little ways snooping around on someone's property and the owner's dog went and bit him in theass and he had to go to the hospital.
Sorry Tim, I don't know the answer but licensing isn't it. Hasn't made much difference in the cities except more bureaucratic crap with the big guy still eating the little guy.
You're idealism is showing.
Holy Cow!
Alright, but the next time I'm charging ya.
Rez, I see a problem that needs an answer . Lisensed , certified , what ever . Heres the real deal :
Every homeowner who hires a contractor of any trade should feel adequate in hiring a professional that is trained , bonded and insured. They should not be allowed to be a felon . Bankrupt contractors would not be able to be in that group of people serving the public because of the requirements above. That just scatches the surface.
Tim Mooney
>>I've been running into a lot of homeowner cases where a pro needs to be called just for the safety of the kids. I've been used to all my life , " This is my house and Ill do what I damn well please "
How about this: Put together a collection of pictures from fires, deck collapses, water heater explosions, etc. along with some documentation. Sorta like they used to take traffic violators on a field trip to the morgue. Before you can educate people on how to do it right, you need to educate them on why it needs to be done right.
If you can convince them that there are good reasons for the codes and doing it right, the next thing to say is that the easy way is to hire a pro, the hard way is to learn it from books or maybe find some advice from the internet..... Hmmm, where on the internet..... ?
-- J.S.
John - good points. Iused to mainly get blank stares from people when I'd tell them the foam insulation the left exposed in the family room, or the deck they attached with a few nails were dangerous,
Now I tell them: "whatever you do, don't let a burnout 60's rock band come do a show with pyro-tecniques here, and don't let anyone from Chicago stand on that deck."
_______________________
Tool Donations Sought
I'm matching tool donors to a church mission to Haiti - we're shipping a bus converted to a medical facility in (now it looks like) April and can fill it with clothes, tools and all sorts of stuff needed in that poorest of all countries. A few hand tools or power tools can provide a livelihood for an otherwise destitute family. Please email me if you have tools to donate.
Thanks to Jeff and David and Jim and Rich and Steven and Mark and Jason and Shep and Jen and Mike and Joe and Bill and Ken for their offers!
Several donations have arrived! Thanks and God bless!
Well since my dad was a building inspector for 20 years ive heard it all .Id ay his general consensus was that most reasonable people didnt mind to hear helpful criticism .He worked in Jersey where inspectors are just about part of law enforcement structure.
Have u been offered any bribes or "gifts" yet? My dad said after one of his first inspections he and the plumbong inspector were leaving and a woman offered them $20 each.No!No! my dad said.."cant do that!" . But when they got back to the car the other inspector told them they were "allowed" anything $20 or under.Apparently it was so prevalant they had decied to condone to a limit. He still was covered over with booze and fruit baskets from developers and contractors around xmas.He finally retired after refusing to do like 12 full framing inspections on huge houses a day.Of corse Hovanian and Toll bros. were the ones pushy for quickie inspects.
Now here in WV in Summers Co. its the wild west. Septic is the only thing inspected.
They tried to have someone even go around and colllect building permit fees and he quit after 6 months from being run off and threatened.
I had some spanish tennats in a building that was not habitable . I told them they needed to leave the premises.
Now , I ordered them out . I said self , how are you going to back it up? I asked the police chief if he could enter the residence . He said not with out a warrant . So I looked in my book . Says I can enter any building during working hours. I showed that to him today . I asked if I could take an officer with me and he said yes . I said , will you go in with me and he said , no. I asked if they were killing me ?????? He said we might go in then . I felt so much better . LOL.
Ive got the power to send the police and write tickets . I have the power to cease utilities . No one has messed with me yet .
Tim Mooney
The first time I asked for police backup and didn't get it, I'd quit doing inspections. Keep checking plans, or any other work I could do in the office, but no more site visits till the city pulled their collective head out.
"Attorney General says hes cracking down on the , " before you dig number '. Seems people aren't calling it enough so hes put some teeth in it. 2500 dollar fine for not calling the number before you dig and waiting the period! 2500 if you commit damage and don't report it .
I'm requiring it for all footing construction building permits ."
Tim,
Any provision in the time line there for a property that had the underground utilities recently (a year before) tagged and flagged, but the flags are no longer there (there are photo records however), and construction takes place a couple of hundred feet from the previously identified utilities?
Jon
First a couple hundred feet is a ways of from the first flagging .
Most importantly the call is free and it takes 48 hrs vs the penalties . Pretty big risk . I just told a home owner to flag a garage and call one call . She told me she had already had the ground flagged for moving the power pole . I told her of the fines and penalties . She opted to call them again . Her deal was 90 percent safe, but :
2500 for not calling them would still loom over the decision. The pole was 50 ft away and one call was told it was for a pole , not for the building . So in my theory , the call was used up for the pole . The building is separate in my opinion which could be argued, but why.
Tim Mooney
Tim,
When we did our addition we called to have the utilities marked. However, the guy who showed up was new (apparently they all are new - there is a very high turnover). When he was done the dig site looked like a rainbow. He marked a defunct gas line (one that had been disconnected for a long time), he marked speaker wire that ran to the intercom as electric (the power came from elsewhere), and he marked many phantoms. Our excavator almost refused to dig. When he did, there was nothing there for 90% of what the guy had marked. The only thing was a power line that we had known about and already discussed with the excavator.
I will still call on all future digging, but I really felt that this guy made it worse with his marking of stuff that wasn't there. You didn't know what to ignore.
Amy
"The pole was 50 ft away and one call was told it was for a pole , not for the building ."
Tim,
Don't they mark the entire property out by you? Out here they do. There are no fines for not getting it marked. Your still liable though, and just 'cause the HO doesn't have to pay, someone does.
I agree no one should dig without calling, but for example, my property has been staked out four times in ten years. (for electric, gas, cable, and neighbors' doing something) There's a record of all that. Seems like a bureaucratic waste if one wants to dig a hole somewhere on their property where four prior survey's showed nothing, and the hole is a significant distance from all noted utilities.
Not arguing with you that the way the law appears to be written, one should follow it, but it is a wasteful law as you describe it.
Jon
"Not arguing with you that the way the law appears to be written, one should follow it, but it is a wasteful law as you describe it."
As Piffin once told me ; Were gonna have to find something to disagree about before we can argue.
Tim Mooney
LOL, Putting it that way makes me sound like such a sainted diplomat!
Here's how the Digsafe team operates here -
For all utility syupply stuff, they show up pronto and free, just like yours. But for a private installation, they tell you they'll get to it whenever they can, and it will be a minimum $75 charge.
For instance, the underground supply from raod to the house or other facility is theirs andthey mark it out for me. I had a job where the line ran from main serevice panel in house out to the garage, and then back from the generator in same trench, near the line from the well. We had to drill a new well. Well driller was on the way out on thursday and I called tuesday to hear them say, maybe we'll get there by friday, and the min charge will be $75.
I told the girl to get them there before the well driller if they wanted to get paid.
Then I went out and dowsed the site.
They never showed up on that job.
On another job, they came and stuck flags in along one line - the main power supplu coming in, and completely missed another leading out to an accessory building, so I cut that lione with the backhoe. They billed the 75 and when I called to say they had missed the one line, they cancelled the charges, supposedly.
After about two years, they had a bill collection department call me for the money again and when I laughed and explained the situation, they apologized and creditied back again, but somehow, I still recieved a bill in the mail for interest on the 75 for those two years. You know how computers are. They just won't listen to reason....
;)
I still call, but don't have that much confidence in the system. I think maybe the equipment takes calibration and training, both of which are variable qualtities. So I add my judgement to their "findings".
But calling takes care of the legal liability. That is a good start.
As for the other issue of licensing, I still fauil to comprehend what it can do to improve things. It would be unconstitutional to force HOs to hire people with licenses. It is not unconstitutional to require that the work be done to a standard though, regardless of who does it, HO or pro.
So the people like you are the ones who have the burden - of education, enforecement, and hopefully saving a life here and there. You have to focus on that nebulous, unquantifiable number, and know they are there, someplace in your career, waiting to be saved.
When I was a cop, there was a statistic from that era, that indicated something about the relationship between the number of drunk drivers busted and the reduction in highway deaths - the indicator was that roughly one life is saved for every twenty drunk drivers taken off the road.
But I think the educational arm of your job/department is the more positive one. Look at how many drunks get away with driving home. Uneducated HO DIYs are going to make mistakes without trying to have that "I can do whatever I want on my property" attitude. Many will try to do what is right if they know.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
>> It would be unconstitutional to force HOs to hire people with licenses.
I don't think so. Unless you're saying it would also be unconstitutional to force people to hire doctors, lawyers, and CPA's with licenses.
What constitutional provision would be violated by such a requirement?
The comparison would be if a person wanted to do his own doctoring or legal work.
I can use herbal tea to fight my head cold, or I can opt to go see a doc. The govt can't force me to go see the doc.
So I can build my own house, or hire it done. They cannot force me to hire someone to do it.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Yes, I did misunderstand you. But I still don't know of any constitutional provision that would prevent the state from requiring you to hire a licensed contractor instead of building your own house. I understand homeowners can't legally do any electrical work in Chicago. I've heard lots of whining and moaning about that law, but I've never heard of anybody mounting a constitutional challenge to it. Or is this just the Maine constitution you're talking about.
I had never heard of a place where a HO was not allowed to do work on his own home.
The provision I am refering to is that we retain the right to enterinto contractural agreements with one another.
I can see how that might be superceded in electrical work theoretically, if in your agreement to purchase electricity, the fine print in that contractural arrangement states something about the work being certtified "safe"....then that contract would precede and prevail.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
This came up in another forum.
Someone went to their city hall to check on getting permits for a bathroom remodel and replacing of the old galvanized pipes with copper.
It was Elmhurst, ILL (Chicago area). Permits where $700 and was not allowed to ANY electrical or plumbing. I looked up the city code online and there was no homeowner exclusion, period.
And so he started calling around and found that either the rates the pro's charged where high OR that they had some "excuses" why they did not need to get permits.
Charging excessive fees and having unneeded requirements leads to a lot of uninspected work by the HO or bootleg "pros".
Exactly the oposite of try to "protect" the HO's.
Insurance is another potential inducement for using licensed contractors and getting permits, although I've never heard of a claim denied for failure to do so.
I've never been able to red all the way through my homeowners ins, policy!
I get so see a lot of DIY work. Often is is poorly done (I usually won't have any reason to know who did pro quality work, of course) with obvious fit and finish flaws.
Sometimes, but not often, it's downright dangerous. (Electrical being the most typical case of scary DIY work.) Often, its downright stupid - a basement wall built blocking access to the furnace. etc.
I've mentioned one house here several times with all sorts of major flaws. It had been on the market for a couple of years and was well known in town for it;s screwed up workmanship.
I noticed the other day the for sale sign was down and a car in the drive. I'm itching to figure out how to meet the (I assume) new owners and find out who (if anyone) did their inspection. Among the house many charms was the roof vent installed upside down, with the "louvers" pitched at the perfect angle to catch rainwater. Oh yes, the front door doesn't open because it became the structural support for the beam down the middle of the LR when they moved the front door to center it!
_______________________
Tool Donations Sought
I'm matching tool donors to a church mission to Haiti - we're shipping a bus converted to a medical facility in (now it looks like) April and can fill it with clothes, tools and all sorts of stuff needed in that poorest of all countries. A few hand tools or power tools can provide a livelihood for an otherwise destitute family. Please email me if you have tools to donate.
Thanks to Jeff and David and Jim and Rich and Steven and Mark and Jason and Shep and Jen and Mike and Joe and Bill and Ken for their offers!
Several donations have arrived! Thanks and God bless!
"Insurance is another potential inducement for using licensed contractors and getting permits,"
Bob,
But the corollary to that is, that if by going that route, it's just too expensive, so that the deficiencies don't get fixed. A lot of DIY stuff may not be "up to code" but still way better than what it replaced.
Jon
I'm not advocating that - just mentionibng it as something that might have some bearing on the situation/
Several years ago a house I had inspected burned down "They think it was electrical" and the homeowner had to provide a copy of my inpsection report to the Ins co.
I had noted a number of major deficiencies in the electrical system and recommended a full electrical inspection and repairs immediately. (Were I to inspect that house today, I'd shut off the main breaker.)
I have no idea if the ins co used my report to influence their coverage decision.
_______________________
Tool Donations Sought
I'm matching tool donors to a church mission to Haiti - we're shipping a bus converted to a medical facility in (now it looks like) April and can fill it with clothes, tools and all sorts of stuff needed in that poorest of all countries. A few hand tools or power tools can provide a livelihood for an otherwise destitute family. Please email me if you have tools to donate.
Thanks to Jeff and David and Jim and Rich and Steven and Mark and Jason and Shep and Jen and Mike and Joe and Bill and Ken for their offers!
Several donations have arrived! Thanks and God bless!
"Several years ago a house I had inspected burned down "They think it was electrical"
Bob,
Sounds like my [only] next door neighbors house several years ago. If I ever find the pics of their house burning I'll post them.
What I was getting at, was that often the way building [code] laws are implemented and enforced, results in an outcome that is the opposite of what the law was intended to prevent. ie. it doesn't take into account the context the "spirit of the the law" for which it was formed.
Lot's of houses were built prior to "codes" but legally, to do almost any improvement in many juristictions is cost prohibitive, since it would in fact require permiting and often major upgrades of other related systems. So it either gets done "illegally" or not at all.
Jon
"Insurance is another potential inducement for using licensed contractors and getting permits, although I've never heard of a claim denied for failure to do so."
I have seen many, many people try to claim that insurance would be denied if they did not have -- building permits - inspections -- licenced installers -- etc -- etc.
So I started wondering. How could that be. Most insurance is policies are state wide and in MO there is no state requiments. Some old information that I saw indicated that about 2/3's of the countiess had no permits/no inspections. And I read (as best I could <G>) my current one and several olds that I had. Could not find a think that even hinted of this (The closes that I did find was damage related to lack of maintance).
So I wondered if that was just in MO because it did not have any state wide requiremnts. Asked in this forum and an otherone.
NOBODY could show me any terms in their insurance that would limit DIY or require inspections. Had several insurance agents and underwriters reply.
In fact at least one underwriter said that HO insurance covered stuppidty.
However, all insuracne does require an "inspection" before writing the policy. Most often that is just a drive by. But I have heard of areas where they do inspect the electrical and I believe in Texas that they inspect new construction for wind resistance.
insurance -
I've heard from several people who had to have the insurer agent out to prevciew the house before they would write a policy. A couple people have told me that they had been informed that because of the wood stove, there would be a 15% rider or that they needed to build a railing on the deck before they could write the policy or that a handrail needed to be installed first on the stairwell. it is pretty common for HO-DIYs here to move in before house compleetion.
There is a cascade to all of this. We went from inspctions to insurers and now let's go to banks. Most folks don't have the wherewithall to finace their own place. They get a mortgage. My bank required me to have insurance to finalize the loan. Had I not showed them evidence of coverage, they had already quoted me wht they would hae charged to provide the policy, and that policy would have only covered them, and not all the other liabilities that a HO faces. The cost of the insurance they offered in lieui of my own was three times to cost I found.
And, most mortgages are resold so the house has to qualifiy to the national standards for the paper to be worth moving around.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Edited 4/24/2004 2:29 pm ET by piffin
Bob, tell me it's not the one on the south entrance to Stone Oak - please
I had never heard of a place where a HO was not allowed to do work on his own home.
Know some folks who built a house in Missouri 20 years ago and got afoul of the closed-shop rules there. HO ran wires for his speaker system while the house was still in bare studs on a weekend. Come Monday morning, the electricians stopped work as there was "non union" work on the job site. HO wound up paying to have his wires torn out--then put back in at union rates (and as an extra).
This thread (among others, too) has seen some calls for coersion under law to enforce what ought to be "standard" practice. Letting some goober use pallet company reject 2x3 single toenailed with 10d box nails 'sell' that work as proper framing is just as bad as letting your nephew's cousin's sister's neighbor's uncle's boy from across the street who took a couple of semesters of HS drafting design houses. But how do we enforce this? (Mr. Mooney & his office have my sympathies, as they have the burden of trying to prevent problems that may have already occurred.)
It is a simple question with a very complex non-uniform answer. We, on this forum, obviously care; we went out and bought computers and service providers (and a magazine subscription or two). "We" would not use finish nails for framing, or extension cords for new outlets, or garden hose for gas piping, or the like. But that's "us," I have no clue how to make "them" care. I am reflexively loath to use legislation and regulation out of hand. The police power of the state is a powerful tool, and not the sort of thing one wants to see used to enforce the use of mauve 000123587 instead of mauve 00123578.
And the poor building inspector's office sits right in the middle.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
"Know some folks who built a house in Missouri 20 years ago and got afoul of the closed-shop rules there. HO ran wires for his speaker system while the house was still in bare studs on a weekend. Come Monday morning, the electricians stopped work as there was "non union" work on the job site. HO wound up paying to have his wires torn out--then put back in at union rates (and as an extra)."
You sure that was in MO and not Chicago area? I have heard of similar things in that area.
Does not sound like MO to me. At least not in Western MO or any outlying areas. Maybe in the St Louis area.
Maybe in the St Louis area.
Precisely, about 1981.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
You havent seen what Ive seen . What I have seen scares me for the children alone. Old people that dont know and dont have a way of finding out because they are nearly unfunctional. Those two types are helpless . Of course our hearts go out to the kids , but the old people are just as sweet and helpless.
If the person doing their own unqualified work was the only person that was going to ever be living there, Id be just fine with it . Normally thats not ever the case.
Any time a home owner spends 200,000 for their home for example , they need reliance on something solid. If they hire a remodeling contractor to put a new addition on their home , they need assurances that they get what they pay for and its warranted. For sure with no room for error. The goverment does a good job getting these things. The things they get are what Im talking about from contractors.
I would like to see a performance bond . I would also like to see the same law to the owner that requires them to bond paying the contractor. There would have to be evidence brought before a board of appeals before a homeowner could slip a bill.
Tradesmen need to be rewarded for their accomplishment . A plumber here earns 50 an hour after 6 years of apprentice ship. A carpenter makes 15.00 after 10 to 30 years. Until their is a Master Licensed carpenter in different fields of carpentry , there will remain a difference between those who are and those who are not and still pros . Thats not right . There should be Master painters , drywallers , bricklayers and the like. A concrete man should be accredited because they do perform an important job.
The result of what Im talking about is a better America , and I need your vote .
Tim Mooney
Tim Mooney
and then we would be like californa, a 1000 sq ft house costing a millon to build
Tim,
Some of what you've seen may well have been done by licensed 'professionals'. I hired one of those to install my gas hot water heater. He didn't have the right pipe for venting it, so he jury rigged a bunch of elbows together. Then he didn't strap the thing as required in our area for earthquakes. It looked like a homeowner job, and the inspector who came to look it over when I had problems with carbon monoxide had trouble believing me that I had not done the work. This was not some joe schmoe working out of his truck, this was an established plumbing business that has several plumbers working for them. Nothing happens to the so called pros who do crummy work. They just get told to do it over in the few instances where they are caught. Or, as in this case, somebody else ends up doing the work over, possibly slightly less shoddy then the guy before, until the homeowner gets so fed up they decide to live with it.
I hire professional electricians to do that work when I need it. And as a homeowner I have no way of knowing if they are doing it right, which is scary. You are putting total faith in somebody not to screw up and burn your house down. I don't think that forcing somebody to hire pros is going to do anything to make a dent in the problems you are seeing.
...sentiments exactly.
.
I understand your point completely .
I have some leverage over licensed individuals however.
Tim Mooney
>Any provision in the time line there for a property that had the underground utilities recently
Call before you dig. Period. I call 'em when I do an estimate for bidding purposes, and call 'em when I work, and refresh them the period I'm working (2 weeks valid per locate call). Why?
I've had gas line shot horizontal bore through a job after I bid it. They shoot 400' stretches here between bore pits, and you might not notice the bore pit as disturbed ground.
And if you call a locate at the start of a job, and 3 weeks later you hit a utility that was not located, you are responsible if you didn't refresh the locate - not the locator (Holey Moley here)
remodeler