I’m an architect with a client who is asking for 7″ wide “grade B” oak flooring. The product sounds like a nightmare. I’ve been looking over the wide plank flooring threads to see what I expected – i.e. you’ve got to like a gapped, cracked, checked, and cupped floor unless you’re willing to pay the installer a heavy premium to screw it down from below. Or glue it?… I have visions of the subfloor being rolled up with the oak like an enormous sardine can lid.
So first question: any recommended sources for the wood? Or, is there a laminated floor with a similar width and veneer? What does the material cost? Finally, what would it cost to properly install 1200 SF +/-, including one large-ish room of 550 sf?
Replies
Jim 20 years ago in the days before I started out on my own I can remember installing flooring like I think you're describing on one project and the whole point of it was to get a certain "rustic look". I realized years afterward that the rooms that flooring went in from the outside looked like carriage bays and the whole idea was to make the home look like a converted carriage house so it worked out great in that respect.
(The installation however was extremely difficult. It was screwed down and the screws were partially hidden by those big head forged cut nails driven into predrilled holes and thing like compression grain and knots made life hell.)
On the other hand it very well might be they got some bad information from a friend of theirs or misunderstood what they saw on some TV program (been there and done that too).
Isn't this a case where you should be asking your client "what is it you want to get from this kind of application"?
By working faithfully eight hours a day, you may eventually get
to be a boss and work 12 hours a day. - Robert Frost
Well, actually the client's hand is being held by our crack sales staff. (we have a long history of them asking us "You can do that, can't you?") At this point I'm looking into the feasibility of the idea. It seems that money won't be an issue for the client, but they will want to know how much extra it will cost. Figure a union crew.
Tim I was actually back there over a decade later. We (now my own company)
had a small project diagonally across the street. When I told the owners
of our project that I had worked on the house across the street years before
when I was just starting out they told me how gorgeous that house looked inside.
I went across the street and ran the bell to introduce myself at the time
but no one was home the day I did that. I did look in the windows in to those
carriage bay rooms and while dark it did look great. While I didn't know it
then the key to an installation like that is moisture control. You want the
boards at a situational stable moisture content and you want them to stay there
too. I don't really recall what was done to the supporting floor structure
in the
way of moisture/vapor control but I do remember us painting the cut ends of
our board with something and they had all been primed or sealed with something
too beforehand.
Despite those precautions there is still going to be movement in a floor like
that but the gapping is considered part of the look. The builder I was working
for at that time was extremely high end and while that client wasn't a well
known name I am sure if I mentioned his other clients and the houses I got
to work
on back then readers would easily recognize those prominent names so he wasn't
being cheap or doing crappy work by any stretch of the imagination.
Jim I can probably give you a price for what you are looking to do but quickly
looking through my cost and supply database I don't have an off-the-shelf price
for 7" wide "grade B" oak flooring nor do I think there is one.
Sounds more like a special order mill run product. Okay looking as it as if
I'm
the contractor who’s
performing this I want to know and in my RFI to your firm I would
say:
It's my understanding that with "B grade"
you are talking about:
Kiln dried 8 to 10% moisture content,
Yield minimum 65% clear per each piece,
Sapwood allowed.
Rough grain permissible up to 1/10 of the surface area
but not exceeding 20%. Wavy grain permissible up to 1/8 of the surface
area but not exceeding 40% of the parcel
Sound knot permissible not exceeding 1-Inch mean diameter up to 20%. Small
sound knots permissible not exceeding 0.50-In mean diameter up to 20% of
the quantity
Is that rustic carriage house look the intended
effect. Do you and your
client understand that you are going to get some gaps?
Do you understand that installing a product for that effect is a little
bit harder because
it requires more artistic and technical subjectivity on the part of the installer?
Do
you want T&G, Ship lap, or Square Edged.
Red or White Oak?
Plain, Rift or Quarter sawn?
You made mention that the installation is "1200
SF +/-, including one large-ish room of 550 sf" I'm more interested
in the actual dimensions of the room and what directions you want the flooring
to
run
because
that will
dictate how much I need to order to account for waste based on the lengths
I can get the material in.
Jim if you can get me that information I can get you our price (ParadigmProjects)
for doing the job (Westchester County NY and Fairfield County CT).
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By working faithfully eight hours a day, you may eventually get
to be a boss and work 12 hours a day. - Robert Frost
First of all you got to get your crack sales people back out on the street, where they can make you some real money. Hey Whitney, over here babe.
Seriously, what about furnishing a better grade of oak and then distressing it? The higher grade would perform/lay/age better and all the client is really interested in is the appearance, right? Take the flooring out to a gravel road and spread it out face down and run over it with a heavy truck several times. Load it up and go lay the floor.
Eric
"Crack Sales" I get it, har har har (or ho ho ho)
Jen
Eric if Jim's design team and his client want the "B Grade" Oak to achieve
a certain "look" with some knots, and some course and wavy grain using a better
grade of oak and then distressing it would not give them the same desired look
at all. It would just be a better
grade of material (clearer and straighter grain) that's been distressed. And
it would be more expensive in the long run. The basic material would be more
expensive and distressing when done professionally
and
done well
is very expensive. There is a lot more technique and artistry to distressing
that what you described.
Distressing is a lot like painting faux finishes in many regards. A lot of
people think faux finishing is just taking a sponge and then blobbing paint
on a wall with it. I'll get some people showing off to me the faux finish they
applied to a room in their home and while my voice says "hmmnn looks nice"
my mind says " it looks like some vandal with sponge boots walked
all over their wall".
Distressing really has to look genuine and authentic and not just
arbitrary. I am sure that you were half joking in recommending "Take the
flooring out to a gravel road and spread it out face down and run over it with
a heavy
truck several times." but it does the technique a disservice. In distressing
a floor consideration has to be given to thinking what has supposedly happened
to this floor over it supposed lifetime to get it to look this way. It has
to show a logical historical pattern of wear. Thought has to be given to what
happened to the floor to get it to look like it does? Worm holes, horse hoofs,
people
wear,
rust,
etc.
I think there are times when we hear projects like Jim is talking about that
a lot of builder remodelers and contractors rather
than working to give the client what they really want they try
to talk
the designer
and/or client into a solution that is the easiest for
them
to perform. I know this because in the case
of a unique applications and effects like Jim is describing here we are the
ones who get a lot of those projects. I am perhaps a little bit more liberal
and open minded in regard to exotic design ideas having come from a background
as a theatrical designer but I think it would help a lot of builder-remodeler-contractors
to listen and consider the possibilities a little bit more carefully.
The other
day I
made a post here in the Business folder called The
Problem
With This Business Is... that sort of illustrates what I am now describing
as the problem we have. Not to pick just on builder remodelers and
contractors I think designers and architects are
often just as guilty of designing what they want to design with out considering
if it's appropriate for the client or what they really want. We as a community
really don't listen that well at times.
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By working faithfully eight hours a day, you may eventually get
to be a boss and work 12 hours a day. - Robert Frost
Well said . . . I accept your reasoned chastisement.
Shuffling off to the chair in the corner . . . Do I really have to wear the pointy hat too?
No chastisement intended Eric, it's really just a little clarification. One of the great things about this site is it?s colloquial even tavern like atmosphere and since Jim seemed to be new around here I just wanted to make sure we weren?t all being misunderstood as being architecturally hostile. I?ve always appreciated your input on stuff here and will continue to look for it.
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By working faithfully eight hours a day, you may eventually get
to be a boss and work 12 hours a day. - Robert Frost
"I think there are times when we hear projects like Jim is talking about that a lot of builder remodelers and contractors rather than working to give the client what they really want they try to talk the designer and/or client into a solution that is the easiest for them to perform"
I don't think this is limited to projects like Jim is talking about. I lost count of customers that have had other contractors say "It can't be done that way" when, in fact, it could be done that way rather easily.
"Can't be done that way" simply means "I don't like doing it that way" almost all the time.
You should've at least gotten a pic of Eric in the pointy hat before you let him off the hook.
Rich Beckman
Another day, another tool.
Jerrald - terrific posts! Thanks_______________________
"I may have said the same thing before... But my explanation, I am sure, will always be different." Oscar Wilde
all that's missing is the project as documented for QA
Hey, you're the architect, you figure it out. Works on paper, right? :)
What about ripping oak veneer plywood to width? Not much depth for sanding, though.
Cute. Very cute. Just what we need is more achitect bashing ;-().
what bashing.....
it's kinda his job at this point....right?
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
Yeah it is his job but he's asking nicely for help and good advice right up front, ahead of the curve. Two biggest criticisms of archys is that they don't ask installers anything about how or why and that they underestimate certain costs. Here's the chance to communicate with one who wants to listen and some of you guys are acting like Palestinians!
My advice would be to look for engineered veneered unless the clients are , like some of mine, extremely prejudiced in favor of real wood. Then they should understand they might need to sign a waiver of liability to get an installer. My first thought on reading the original post was, "I'm glad he's looking for B grade because it will be below B at best for that width. Oak just doesn't grow very much of that kind of wood.
Now me, I'm a dummy who loves a good challenge and I don't mind working cost plus$$$$$..
Excellence is its own reward!
I helped my FIL put down a prefinished cottage grade Oak floor in 4",5",6"widths.
5+ years ago Still looks good.
this stuff was finished on all surfaces and was milled very well very few bowed pieces.
A nice floor (for prefinished)
TDo not try this at home!
I am a trained professional!
Just started a job where the clients have wide plank floors almost throughout a 3000 sq ft ranch style they just paid close to a mil for...they want to replace it with the 2" oak that's common to this area...don't know what's underneath the existing yet.
They have a floor guy already, I'm just helping widen doorways, etc. The homeowner wants to do much of the work herself, and has her sister helping...so it's kind of an all girl crew. My daughter wants to install the doorknobs when we get to that point...that's her specialty...she gets $5 for each set!
Jennifer 8)
So what do you think shipping charges for the wideplank flooring would be to Ohio? :O)Character? I never had any problem with character. Why, people've been telling me I was one every since I was a kid.
What an idea! I just called her and left a message asking why they don't just put the new flooring down over the old, solid wood...raise the thresholds a little bit, and bring the floor closer to the level of the bath and kitchen tile...I think they want to do it the hard way.
I'll ask ifn they would mind having it taken off their hands.
Jen 8)
"So what do you think shipping charges for the wide plank flooring would be to Ohio..."
Rez, contact the following places and find out:
Baird Bros. phone 330-533-6279.........located in Canfield, Ohio........they specialize in kiln dried hardwoods...I believe they carry wide flooring, but not 100% sure. Everything I ever bought there was good stuff.
Or, try
Clayco Kiln (also referred to as DeNoons Lumber) phone 614-768-2220...located near Carrollton, Ohio on Route 43.....DeNoon is a lumber harvester and they will sell you green hardwoods....Clayco Kiln is a division of DeNoons and they of course have a large kiln and will dry any quantity or hardwood species of lumber for you. They are a wholesaler, so they can easily sell you enough board feet for your project in whatever width you need for a fair price... In the past, I've bought a decent amount of 7inch and 8 inch wide (3/4 inch thick) oak boards ranging around 8 to 10 feet long. They will sand and cut to your specs. As for milling tongue and grooves or ship lap...I don't think they do this service, but not sure.
Good luck in your search.
Davo
That's why I added the :)
Same as my ;-(). All in jest.
I would be scared to do it . I was also wondering if Jerald was back in a year to see it . Jerald is as competent as we have here , I was just wondering if he went back. Ive worked with oak a lot and there is one gaurentee ; Its gonna move . I think I would be selling a plywood base prefinished floor in the width you describe. Laminate if I could get by with it . http://www.wilsonart.com or http://www.pergo.com should give you pricing and material choice. Labor depends on your area, so probably call an installation store in the area. Laminate or plywood is not a lifetime floor though, but neither is 7 inch wide oak Im afraid. Regardless of installation success, I would not want to own the job in any house I was going to keep. What if there was a slight moisture problem ? WOW!
Tim Mooney
I'm not sure what grade "B" is but you should check out NOMF
http://www.nofma.org/
Where are you located? Seasonal variations in humidity vary from area to area and may be the deciding factor.
Cost no object? Specify rift sawn, not flat sawn- less expansion contraction with humidity changes
As noted, insist all 6 sides be finished (at least sealed) before installation.
Insist owners control humidity levels year round.
Learn to pray {G}
_______________________
"I may have said the same thing before... But my explanation, I am sure, will always be different." Oscar Wilde
Jerald responded with expected expertise in this area . Others have been basically stressing moisture, primeing on all sides with one poster with success although it was random width which was used . One mentioned primming ends, and most are concerned about the over all width of course as being the major concern. I think typically we all stand in agreement. Jeralds answer was very imformative.
Tim Mooney
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Is this the width that you're looking for?
Gabe
Wow Gabe that looks pretty kool. Are you familiar with the Kahrs product
line at all? I literally just discovered their website half an hour
ago surfing around thinking about this discussion. Looking through the product
line they have a style called Oak Canterbury that looks more
like
the look of the floor I installed all those years ago. More rustic and with
more pronounced grain. And I am sure it's a lot easier to install that the
"real" stuff.
.View Image
Excellent resource.
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By working faithfully eight hours a day, you may eventually get
to be a boss and work 12 hours a day. - Robert Frost
At one time one of my companies distributed and installed Kahrs flooring and we put down an awful pile of it. It's one of the few engineered flooring systems that you can be sure won't cause call backs.
For a wide plank, you can't beat it and the finish is super hard and durable. The important feature is that it's super stable as well and won't cup or crack or any other nasty thing that wide planking want's to do.
What do you think about their wide plank ash? It's a knockout in a large room.
Gabe
I liked that too. I just checked through their site and found that one of my suppliers is one of their dealers so next week when I'm down that way I'm going to get a look at some real samples. Both because our bread and butter is doing artsy and traditional techniques we have never installed a engineered flooring product. Hey, as great a solution as they may be you can't use distressing techniques on engineered flooring and that's one of the thing we do. But I certainly would never rule using a good alternate solution or product.
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By working faithfully eight hours a day, you may eventually get
to be a boss and work 12 hours a day. - Robert Frost
That is a really nice lam floor, if the client wants to go that way, (and should). White oak "#2", not red, but spec'ing the above job isn't my problem.
Do you have any idea on price installed? A ballpark is fine.
Sorry, I don't know what it would be state side as far as their pricing is concerned.
Gabe
No problem, I just wondered if the price went off the map. I would think it would be very competitive to solid unfinished alternatives.
Typically, the prices are actually better than most people think. You have to consider that the kahrs floating floor is prefinished with a factory finish that's extremely durable. The bottom line on these floor styles is normally better than trying to match the look with solid boards without any of the problems.
At the end of the day, it turns out to be even or cheaper to use any of the kahrs products.
Gabe
I like the core details and wear layer,
http://www.kahrs.com/feat.html
I have to think they are less $$$ installed than the floors I linked to, and more stable.
Sorry I'm slow at getting back today, but I'm answering between periods. The Ottawa Senators is playing Tampa Bay (7 - 0 for Ottawa)
All I can say to anyone who is considering a wood floor is "try it, you'll like it".
Did you check out their single plank ash?
Gabe
Yeps, that looks wild. I'm keeping these floors in mind, whatshisname can present his own ideas to his clients.
for 7" wide, I'd much rather use Ash.
Excellence is its own reward!
"for 7" wide, I'd much rather use Ash" Okay
Piffen your confusing me there. You talking from a purely personal subjective
point of view regarding the look of the ash am I correct. Your just saying
you like the look of the ash better than the oak in the 7" , am I correct?
It's an engineered flooring product so I would think any selection of ash
based on technical considerations relative to it's width (expansion) is pretty
irrelevant am I correct? Like I said I've never used an engineered flooring
product and while I do know they expand and contract isn't the expansion and
contraction pretty much a constant across the product line with little regard
to the species of the top veneer?
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By working faithfully eight hours a day, you may eventually get
to be a boss and work 12 hours a day. - Robert Frost
Actually, I do like the look of wide ash better but that's not why I said that. Coming and going in this thread, I didn't quite realize that we had fully graduated to engineered flooring only in a particular product line..
Excellence is its own reward!
I've got several thousand board foot of rough cut maple that's been air drying for a couple years now. I've been thinking about planing it and screwing it down for a rustic floor. What would you consider the maximum and minimum widths for a random width flooring? Are there any particular snags to watch out for? ThanksCharacter? I never had any problem with character. Why, people've been telling me I was one every since I was a kid.
Plane it and stack it again for a while - like another six months. I don't know too many woods that can have more wild hairs in them. Runs off chasing every little rabbit in the meadow..
Excellence is its own reward!
So you prefer the 8" ash because?????????View Image
In preparing for battle I have always found that plans are useless, but planning is indispensable.- Dwight D. Eisenhower
Somebody must have put something in my drink or I'm getting old. I can't seem to keep up with this thread. We went from solid wood to engineered before I noticed and now I went from 7" to 8" without remembering it.
"26520.39 in reply to 26520.36 for 7" wide, I'd much rather use Ash"
LOL
...because I can get good quartersawn ash in wide widths that I needn't worry about wandering around as much as oak. Grain is similar but more straight with fewer knots. If you want the charachter look, then Oak has it but ash is interesting, almost as hard, easier to work, less likely to wander. Personal preference for looks, I suppose is my biggest reason. Oak can be more beautiful but that quality of wood is reserved for furniture work, not grade B flooring.
Either would need stabilizing and sealing all sides first.
.
Excellence is its own reward!
7", 8" eh maybe I bumped it a bit. But I think of those as being in the same range as far as both pattern considerations and expansion/contraction issues. I was just wondering what your thinking was. To tell you the truth my favorite wood "look" is cherry in any width or texture. But I like all the species at differnet times for different reasons.View Image
In preparing for battle I have always found that plans are useless, but planning is indispensable.- Dwight D. Eisenhower
One source, they ship. The cost is heavy, but I don't have a number for you, they must have a phone number you could call.
http://www.wideplankflooring.com/hardwoods_ro.cfm
You will want to control the humidity in the house, for a lot of reasons.
Thanks for a great tip. The company is Carlisle Restoration Lumber, out of New Hampshire.
My biggest hangup on this project comes from my woodworker's fear of wide lumber's tendency to reshape itself at will due to changes in moisture content. I spoke to a sales rep from the company who explained that their products are quartersawn from old growth lumber, which has tight growth rings and is less likely to move than the typical lumber yard stuff made from twigs and bark. After careful drying the lumber is back-scored to further resist moisture movement. They recommend gluing the product to the subfloor in addition to blind nailing. Face nailing/screwing was not recommended for widths less than 8". They sell planks as wide as 16" (!!).
Prices could have been a lot worse...
Thanks to Jerrald for prodding me along. I learned something nifty, along with getting my feathers ruffled.
"ya can't beat that with a stick. Unless, of course, you can."
Jim, I've learned lot and definitely still have some more to learn from this
little excursion. As we all know how "way leads
on to way*" I've
been been checking out this engineered flooring idea and finding out that
wide "B grade
oak" (the real stuff) isn't that easy to come by locally.
Another source regional/national source that I was thinking of but the name
was escaping me the other day was http://www.mountainlumber.com the
material they call Granary
Oak is even more similar to that floor I was describing
having installed twenty-something years ago. A purely subjective opinion on
my part but I love this "look".
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Thinking about the title you originally gave this discussion "Who gave
'em THAT idea?" and some of
the haranguing that been handed out sometimes
there's nothing wrong with bad ideas. They're a just a stepping stone to a
bigger better
concept.
A blurb in a brainstorming session.
Just last night I was reading on pg 238 in the book Cracking
Creativity: The Secrets of Creative Genius by Michael Michalko (the bold
emphases are mine)
(I might also add that I think that Betty Edwards' book which is now The
New Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain I think is the very best
how to book written on any subject. Reading and "doing" the book can teach
absolutely
anyone to draw.)
And IMHO the original idea that drove this discussion wasn't such a bad idea
after all.(just gotta keep thinking moisture control over and over)
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In preparing for battle I have always found that plans are useless, but planning is indispensable.- Dwight D. Eisenhower
J>>> "My biggest hangup on this project comes from my woodworker's fear of wide lumber's tendency to reshape itself at will due to changes in moisture content."
That is why I suggested you control the humidity in the house, or however I put it, but that is another thread.
Ya, Carlisle is more or less local for me, and they seem to be the supplier of choice for flooring when you step out of the box. I'll have to remember to have them define old growth lumber for me, I seem to remember this area was pretty much flatcut at one time. You liked the explaination, maybe I won't rock their boat. I know they mill from some reclaimed timbers, but perhaps they meant they mill from a minimum sized sawlog, which would in part explain the premium prices they charge.
In any case, I have never heard a complaint about them, their product is worth what they charge.
What did they quote you, by the way?
My discussion with a sales rep defined old growth as follows:
trees from long undisturbed forest, where the trees have to compete for available light & resources; hence, growth is slower and growth rings are tighter. Compare a city tree of 3' diameter, maybe 75 years old, with a forest tree of the same species, same diameter, 200 years old.
Oh, I thought they meant they cut old trees as opposed to new ones. ;-)
Old growth means different things to different people, and there are a few reasons for slow growth, but your definition is probably along the lines of what they are thinking.
I came into this thread really late, but I need some prof. opinion on a job I may do in the next year for the MOST exacting client (DW).
I have about 1800 BF of oak pallet boards 4 ft by 5-1/2 to 6-1/4 inch by 3/4 (Ran thru the joiner/planer once before storage) under the pool table and ping pong table in the basement that I was going to use for a ceiling in the next house. DW thinks maybe that it would make a good kitchen floor (after seeing some of it used for furniture). Probably would select about 800 BF for the flooring, but still would have a few knots.
I've used (and usually had to join and then plane down to about 5/8 or 11/16 to get it straight) these boards joined to about 3 ft wide . Have not had any problem with warpage on that, but did all the joinery with opposing grain, etc. Would not have been worried about a little warpage for a ceiling.
For a few decades while I was still a dumb young buck, I had a lot of stuff warp bad on me doing furniture from scrap pallets, so remain leary of shrinkage. Have never done a big floor from scrap pallets, so have not made the flooring shrinkage mistakes yet.
So, if I do the second join/plane/tg operation on this wood, what are my chances of not having floor gap before DW (or me) dies (let us assume 30 years)?
Serious replies only <G>
PS: Old oak pallets have some VERY interesting grain patterns, but behave most unexpectedly when undergoing even a small humidity change.