Replies

1. 
   MarkH128 | Dec 03, 2002 06:54am | #1

   Well, you should charge more than $300.

   Really I don't have any idea. You probably should have agreed on something before you started, because what if the neighbor thinks your price is too much? You're stuck then. I would figure up what you think is reasonable maybe add a few percent extra, and see if that is OK. Also the labor has little to do with the cost of materials, this sounds like a lot of work. What would you charge in labor to put in a $1200 sink as opposed to a $120 sink?

1. 
   evergreerepair | Dec 03, 2002 07:13am | #3

   I always have this problem estimating labor.  I'm trying to find a book or something that will breakdown the cost for small jobs.  There's plenty of books on estimating framing a house, pouring foundations, etc.  It's a bad feeling when give the customer the bill and they say "I thought it would be more expensive".  It's too late then.  I'm planning on doing this type of work full time now that I am retired and I just want to make sure I don't give my work away at too low a price.  I can't charge by the hour since it takes me longer to do things as I work very carefully.  I spend a lot of time thinking since I don't do the same type of job all the time.   I'm hoping there's some reading material out there that will help me with this.

1. 
   MarkH128 | Dec 03, 2002 07:20am | #4

   It's very easy to underprice your work, and it's hard to figure out how much to charge beforehand, but I think you're best to give a close estimate before starting.  Try what Jeff said on this one.

2. 
   JeffBuck | Dec 03, 2002 07:06am | #2

   5 set's of stairs...or one set of 5 steps?

   Many years ago......a wise old man told me the handyman rule of thumb......

   cost of materials...double that for labor...then add the two together for the total.

   some jobs are material cost high...and some are material cost low...vs the amount of labor to install.....but it generally works to a nice average...and if ya use really cheap or reall expensive materials...just adjust up or down......only times by one...or time by 3 instead of 2.......

   going with the idea that it was one set of stairs....and a rail on both sides......how would the $600 for your time sound?

   Or....just do what I do......have in mind a daily rate......and use that as a base. What do you think your time is worth?

   $50...$100....$200....or more a day??

   And next time.......get set on a price before hand.....so deduct a little from this one....'cause ya screwed up on being a big-time contractor already!

   Most people I run into want to pay a fair price..and most consider the PT handyman wages of $5-$10 and hour too low for a job well done. If your just doing a neighbor a favor......keep it low if ya want....but if you want to start doing a bit more for real money eventially...price yourself accordingly. If you do quality work....price yourself as such.

   Good luck...let us know...ballpark....what ya came up with.

   Jeff

   ..............Al-ways look on......the bright......side of life...........

                      .......whistle.....whistle.......whistle........

1. 
   evergreerepair | Dec 03, 2002 07:30am | #5

   Jeff, it's one set of stairs with 5 treads, 5/4 x 12 x 8, 5 risers, 1 x 8 x 8, 5 stringers out of 2 x12's that I cut myself, and 4 - 4 x 4 posts, top and bottom rails and square ballisters that I cut myself on the table saw.  I even primed everything in case my neighbor was unable to paint before winter.  I used pressure treated for the stringers and everything else was pine.  I even made little triangle skirts where the stringers meet the foundation.  It was alot of work.   Like I said, I don't build that many staircases so I have to spend more time than normal when I do a job.  The materials were a combination of lumberyard and HD.  I never mark up materials.  I don't know why - I just don't.  $600 sounds like a lot of money to me but if that's what the going rate is, then I won't feel bad charging it.  He's not a good neighbor, he's just a neighbor who knows I do good work and don't charge alot.

3. 
   Piffin | Dec 03, 2002 07:31am | #6

   Cost of materials has absolutely nuthin to do with labor cost.

   Let's see here, the best I ever did applying finishing compound was eleven gallons in a day. Maybe twenty eight bucks? Double that and I charge fifty six? That was a hard day's work for that little.

   I spent a month last week doing demo work. Spent about twenty bucks on sawsall blades. Man Oh Man, the babies be hungry that week.

   You very definitely should always agree on a pricce or a rate before you start. Some guys doing part time work can do very high quality but can also work as slooowwwww aaaasss mmooolllllaaaaassseesssssss so an hourly rate may not be fair to the customer. If you didn't agree on a price beforehand, he might even be thinking you were doing it for free.

   I'm a professional and most customers think I give good value for the money but sometimes they have no idea what something will cost. I quoted $957 for a set of steps with simple handrail and the guy almost fell off his seat. He thought it could be done for about 250 and I was figuring close to four hundred for materials alone.

   The last time a guy asked me this Q after the fact, I learned not to answer directly. He was painting a house for a doctor and asked me to review his work (it was good job and he was proud of it) He asked me in the conversation what I would get for a job like that. I said that I would have to have about $2500.

   A couple of weeks later, I heard through the grapevine that this doc was really mad at me. I called him to find out why. It seems that this dude who painted the house had initially told him that he could paint the house for eleven hundred or thereabouts. When the job was done, he presented a bill for $2500 and said that I told him the doc was ripping him off if he didn't get at least that much. Of course, I had never said anything like that - only what I would bid it in at. I've got bigger overhead and wages than the dude who was painting part-time and he could've made out OK at the original price.

   So I don't participate in after-hours pricing. No matter what is agreed on - somebody always feels jaded. The best you can do is tell your neighbor, here's what I spent on materials, and here's how many hours I've got in. What do you think is fair? And accept whatever he offers.

   With a smile.

   .

   Excellence is its own reward!

   "The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.

   The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."

   --Marcus Aurelius

1. 
   evergreerepair | Dec 03, 2002 07:57am | #7

   I have to give an estimate on a job this week - a customer had his hardwood floors refinished and he wants me to install new shoe molding in 5 rooms.  It has to be painted white.  I have a power mitre saw and a nail gun.  Molding costs .50 a foot. I can more or less figure out my material cost but have no clue what to charge for labor.  My usual tactic is to get the money for materials and tell the customer I will give him the labor price when I am done.  This way I figure I can come up with a true labor price based on time and effort spent  It never seems to work that way......... sometimes its takes forever to finish.  Is doing the same job over and over the only way to get a fix on what to charge?  Materials times two may work sometimes but it seems experience matters more.  I'm in such a quandry!

1. 
   Piffin | Dec 03, 2002 08:16am | #8

   I do remodel work so I never know what I'll find or how long it will take. So I do most of it all at time and materials plus a percentage. I make an estimate first and quote an hourly price. I make sure they know that it is an estimate only and that it could vary. the final bill is determined by materials used and time spent.

   Some estimates are no more than SWAG ( silly wild assed guesses) but with thirty years of experience, they are not bad ones. Anything more than a couple of days labour means that I spend some time figuring out what it will cost more accurately.

   For a whole house a dollar a running foot is a decent rate for shoe mold to do a good job. Set up time for a small job means it will cost more. Do you have to paint it too? Add more.

   If you charge hourly but know that you are slow, you have to be competitive. If carps in your area get paid twenty and you are slower, the carpentry is worth fifteen. Then double that for the overhead, insurance, and profit to charge thirty.

   Here are some more articles and if you prowl the business folder here at BT, you can learn a lot

   http://www.hometechonline.com/gorman/

   Hometech also has a Handyman Estimating package just out.

   The most accurate estimating you can do is to track job costs and record them. That way your estimating is based on what you can do and not on what the national averages are.

   .

   Excellence is its own reward!

   "The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.

   The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."

   --Marcus Aurelius

1. 
   ken1putt | Dec 03, 2002 06:18pm | #11

   Piff -- I'm sorry, but you're not going to get away with Silly Wild-A$$ed Guess for that definition. You have WAY too much information and experience for your guesses to be silly.

   In a former life I worked with a bunch of wildlife scientists and the standard definition of SWAG was Scientific Wild-A$$ed Guess.

   The operative difference being that, while it is a guess, a proper SWAG has a lot of experience and data backing it up.

   A good guess, certainly. Perhaps a great guess--but a guess nonetheless.

   K-

   -

   Writing is the only profession where no one considers you ridiculous if you earn no money. -- Jules Renard

1. 
   Qtrmeg | Dec 03, 2002 06:32pm | #12

   You forgot to mention, the swags average out. Win some, lose some.

   Anyhow, you guys are all nuts. I bid everything at $5 per pound, add materials and travel.

2. 
   Ragnar17 | Dec 03, 2002 10:54pm | #14

   George,

   How long do you think it will take you to get a piece of base shoe off the truck, cut it to length, and then nail it in place?  10 minutes?  How many pieces are there in the house?  In my opinion, the time required is a function of the number of cuts, not the total linear footage involved.

   Base shoe can go pretty fast unless there's lot's of bump-outs, etc, that will require extra additional copes and miters.  Including set up time, you'll probably be in and out of a room in one or two hours.

   If painting is in your scope of work, you'll need to figure additional time to prime, paint, fill nail holes, and possibly caulk a few areas, and then do some touch-up painting.  I'd consider pre-priming and painting the shoes.

   Come up with what you think is a reasonable time and bid accordingly.  Make sure you allow time to get the materials and load/unload/reload your tools. 

   Track your hours, and when you're all done, decide if you'd need more or less hours the next time this sort of project comes up.

   Ragnar

1. 
   Snort | Dec 04, 2002 03:24am | #15

   Hey George, materials + 20-25%, whatever you feel comfortable with for the time and trouble you spent doing the take off and then getting the stuff. Have got any other overhead? Insurance,lunch? What do you want to make per hour? Do you need to make a profit on top of that? If you're inordinantly slow and you charge a lot of moola, word will get out. You're retired, right,(from what business?) I don't think that working construction folks can give you any kind of real price, much less working formulas...but that won't stop 'em... It's okay, I can fix it!

1. 
   archyII | Dec 04, 2002 04:07am | #16

   Interesting question regarding insurance.  Does he have any and what kind?

2. 
   evergreerepair | Dec 04, 2002 05:14am | #17

   To answer your questions - I am retired from the post office and the Marine Corps. after 34 years of service.  I've always done electric, plumbing and carpentry work.... mostly for gratis.  I've had many friends over the years who were in the business which is where I learned most of my skills.  Unfortunately, since they were much older than me, they have either moved away or passed away. 

   Once I started devoting full time to the business and charging for my work, I have incorporated as an LLC, taken out a $1M general  liability policy, purchased a new work van and as for tools - I have always been a tool junkie - I must have over $20,000 worth of tools.   Fixing things has always been my one and only hobby.  Now I need to make money with my "hobby". 

   Some of the responses I've received from this discussion are very helpful and I really appreciate the time and effort you've all given me.  I've been a subscriber of Fine HomeBuilding since issue #56 - 1989, but this is the first time I've ever particiapted in "Breaktime".  To be honest, I've always been a little intimidated by all you professionals.  Your knowledge never ceases to amaze me.  If I ever have any other questions, I won't hestitate to visit Breaktime again.  Thanks!

3. 
   Snort | Dec 04, 2002 05:35am | #18

   George, welcome, and get used to some ribbing. Most of do this work 'cause we didn't want to be Marines<G> (I was in the army signal corps, if flags mean anything to you)... It's an outlaw profession...

   Check out some of Sonny Lycos' posts, but fair warning, last time I followed his formulas, I got fired. You know what you need to get, get that.

   By the way, why did you go LLC instead of S Corp?

   It's okay, I can fix it!

4. 
   evergreerepair | Dec 04, 2002 06:23am | #19

   my cousin's a lawyer and he said to go LLC - that way I can keep my house if I ever screw up big time.   

   re:  flags.....(before my time, but) remember the big one the Marines carried up the hill in the Pacific?

   ribbing doesn't bother me.  I can rib with the best of 'em.

5. 
   JeffBuck | Dec 04, 2002 10:02am | #20

   don't be a'scared of the professionals.....remember..this is the internet....

   most of us are 12 year girls pretending, anyways.

   JeffBuck Construction   Pittsburgh,PA

    Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite                  

2. 
   JeffBuck | Dec 03, 2002 09:55am | #9

   Pif.....if cost of materials never comes into play......then how come my $900 looks real close to your $957!

   You said..about $400 materials...this guy was at $300 with no mark ups......sounds like a similar set of stairs......

   and go figure..the old ballpark/rule of thumb was right in the old ball park!

   Funny how that happens. This was of guessing on handyman type stuff served me real well during the formulative years......

   Just like Dad's old way of estimating kitchens.......charge the customer the full cost of the cabs........consider your discount your pay......that also worked great.......I haven't tried it for years....since I got fancy with my "that'll take about a day" estimating......but Dad was always competitive with the full time K and B outfits..and he usually turned a good profit.

   For estimating trim jobs....Jim Tolpin's "Finish Carpenter's Manual" by Craftsman Books gives pretty good time estimates.....

   and for some added info on hourly rates......my local Handyman Connection.....charges the customer $50/hr...and pays the carpenter $25/hr.

   This time is strictly the time spent working on the job....I'm not sure how material runs are covered. I do know they "bracket" the time estimates.....

   Like if you think a faucet replacement is gonna take 2 hours...you tell the customer 1 to 3 hours...then charge for the actual time.

   The idea of telling them the cost of the trim..then adding up the time at the end....is just a version of T & M.....Time and Materials.....which is done all the time....and the safest way to bid the unknown....and if you're honest...if the most fair to all invloved....

   Now all ya gotta do is decide on a daily rate....then just divide that by 8.

   Jeff..............Al-ways look on......the bright......side of life...........

                      .......whistle.....whistle.......whistle........

4. 
   ProDek | Dec 03, 2002 10:08am | #10

   I would charge him $1000. especially if you painted the steps.

   5X5=25 sq. ft. X $30.= $750 plus railing

   Railing-10' X $25. per ft. = $250.

   Grand total         $1,000.00 + 8.8% sales tax

   If you subtract your $300 cost of materials that means you charged $700. for labor for lets' say one weeks labor? $700 Divided by 40 hrs= $17.50 per hour less say 30% for taxes($5.25per hour), that leaves you with about $12.25 per hour or $490.

   Can you live on that?  

   Bob

   "Rather be a hammer than a nail"

   

   
   

   ---

   Edited 12/3/2002 2:11:04 AM ET by Pro-Dek

5. 
   Ragnar17 | Dec 03, 2002 10:36pm | #13

   George,

   I can remember how it was when I was starting out, and so I can fully relate to the problems you're facing.  You sound like an honest person who doesn't want to overcharge customers. 

   One way to start coming up with a price is to talk to other contractors in your area and find out what the going hourly rate is.  It's no skin off anyone's nose to just call up and find out what they'd charge on an hourly rate.  However, I would NOT advise you to get a competitive bid from someone unless they can do it over the phone in five minutes or less.  It's OK to ask for a ballpark figure.  However, I don't think it's fair to ask a contractor to spend several hours of their time to come up with a bid if you have no intention of having them do the work. 

   Once you know what the going hourly rate is in your area, you can use it as an index to determine what to charge.  Of course, I agree with you when you say you shouldn't be charging the same hourly rate as a person with tons of experience IF you require more time to get the job done.  A client is hiring you as a professional in your field.  There is an implicit understanding that you should know what you're doing.  If you feel like you need to spend a couple of hours researching a particular topic, then make sure you don't charge this research time to the project --- instead, treat it as an overhead expense.

   However, if the finished product is the same, you deserve to get the same total price: equal pay for equal work.  One way to get a feel for the actual cost of projects is to talk to friends, neighbors, and relatives in your area who have recently hired contractors to do work.  Find out what they paid for different things and write it down.

   Regarding the stair project you mentioned, how many hours did you actually spend on the job?  How long did it take you to procure materials?  And how long did you spend talking things over with the client?  I highly encourage you to keep a book in your truck and accurately log the hours that you spend on any given project.  This data will provide you with a means of accurately bidding similar jobs in the future.  Also, when you're done with a project and all the particulars are still fresh in your mind, make a few notes as to whether things went smoothly, or if you feel you should have allowed more time, etc.

   Finally, here's an idea that just popped into my head: what if you called a contractor and explained your situation?  If you paid them on an hourly basis for their time, maybe they'd be willing to meet with you and help you generate a bid on a particular project, or tell you what they've charged in the past for a similar project.  I don't know if you'd get any takers, but it's an honest approach at least.  And it might not hurt to build a relationship with a contractor in your area.  There will be times when you get a lead on a project that's too big for you to handle by yourself.  If you had a relationship going, you would be in a good position to get help in the form of partnering, etc, and this way the relationship might turn out to be of mutual benefit.

   Good luck in your pursuits,

   Ragnar

   
   

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   Edited 12/3/2002 2:58:11 PM ET by ragnar