Saturday Night
North Western Ontario
February has been a rough month: had to put a favorite horse down, septic field froze and now water line is frozen.
We fished the 200′ x1″ line and got the fish in both ends; narrowed the frozen area with logic to where our waterline goes under a bush road used this winter to haul out logs. We didn’t have any snow and it got very cold and drove the frost deep(3′ +). The spot were it froze is on bedrock and we couldn’t go deeper than 3’6″. Used some styro but it got so wet when we backfilled it was hard to do it right.
Plan A was to build a 4′ x 30′ fire across the road which we did today.Finished it tonight around midnight by moonlight. Felt to me like the Middle Ages and we were trying to keep vampires from our camp by building huge fires. Cut down 2 dead trees by the light of the full moon and threw them on the fire. You know you’re in the country when you fire up your chain saw at midnight and nobody notices.
Plan B …snake a 1/2” water hose as far as possible and use a mini submersible to pump boiling water and hopefully dump it right in front of the ice.It is downhill all the way back to the well if we can get through the ice between the fittings.
The guys around here that do this (and charge 100 bucks an hour/no guarantee) use 3/16″ line and steam to drive thru ice but shy away from lines that have joints in them because they can’t get it past the unions.
They also advised me to forget thawing and go temporary overland with insulation and heat tape.If all else fails, I’ll put a holding tank in the basement and fill with hoses that can be stored where it’s warm.
Plan C is to boil a kettle a on a Coleman stove and with McGiuver style fittings pipe to 1/4″ or 3/8″ waterline and blast that ice!!
Off to try to get caught up on a cabinet installation tomorrow so at my age I’m always searching for the short answer.
If you got one, I would truly appreciate your help. As you might imagine, head office is not too impressed with the present status of the bathtub and indoor toilet, especially so close to Valentine Day.
Cheers,
silver
Replies
My guess is thawing 3' of dirt is going to be nearly impossible. At the least it will take several days. Good luck. I don't have any good suggestions, several of yours sound workable though. I would be tempted to temporarily bypass the frozen part. I think you will need to increase the insulation on that section of pipe, or increase the road height in the future.
Ok, one idea! Can you rotate the fish line with a drill to get through? There is a high chance of perforating the line, but it may work.
Hey markh128
Plastic line BTW.
Yep...increasing insulation and road height in the spring.
Rotate the fish in a drill?? Might try that...
Bypassing the frozen area...hmm...would involve a large machine and cost 500 but not out of the question.
Thanks for your thoughts,
silver
Careful with the drill and fishtape. I tried clearing a sewer line with a 40' length of 1/2" rebar chucked in a hole hawg. All I accomplished was to break my jaw when the rebar hooked in the pipe. I ate broth, jello, and pudding for 6 weeks, spent $7,000 on medical work, and my bite is even worse than it was before!
Kevin
what temperature is the water supply?
as a prevention can you let it run, or will it still freeze?
Maybe a stupid question?
You can rent ground heaters which is basically a tow behind boiler with loops of radiant heat tube and place it down over the entire area you need to thaw. They thaw 1' per day of frozen ground. Most contractors cover them with hay or insulated blankets. They are not cheap to rent but get the job done.
I would think if you just thaw the line and if it were in still in 3' of frost it would just feeze up again anyway. Ground heaters would thaw everything.
I feel your pain.
We normally put pipe on several inches of sand then use 1 1/2" styrofoam x 24" wide plus min 6" sand on top plus backfill' in addition you can use a "PYRO-TEnax " cable instead of tape wrap as it can be replaced with out digging up all the pipe done this one a number of times as we have a lot of rock in our area near ottawa . As for current problem a backhoe with a pick instead of a bucket would get accross the road normally or braker hoe. Sorry about the horse I do grave digging for man and beast can be a bummer in the winter with frost , Horses normally need 8 x 8 x 5 deep normally do this alone as owners get too emotional . hop this helps some.
Some good advice:
Right on Kevin...think I'll skip that one ;sorry to hear about your incident.
Wain...once it's thawed one plan was to let the water run and recirculate back to well but I thought it would use too much energy running submersible pump.
Ted...ground heaters...BINGO...didn't know about them but Mon. am I'll be on the horn trying to track them down in this one horse town my American bro likes to call "the great white gouge". I think you're right.. it will refreeze when thawed although the weather is slowly warming. I called head office in to show her a crack of light at the end of the tunnel.
Ken 1-good styro advice;I'll be reding that line in the spring;I think we could heat trace but we would need 90 or so feet and that sells for 6.50' Can. here.
If we dig down 2' and add 24" of 2" of styrofoam would that be effective in stopping frost penetration?? I may just dig up the entire road area and redo as you have suggusted...as usual trying to come up with a cost effective plan.
Thanks to all for your ideas...I knew there would things I never would have thought of...really appreciate this forum and you helpful folks
cheers, silver
Silver,
Ontario here as well, worked in plants from Hamilton to Sault St. Marie. Those plants don't shut down just because the temps are -40C. You have to stop thinking permanent when you are in a battle, we used to call these freezes "the Winter Games". You won't thaw anything out at these temps long enough to keep it thawed. We have at our disposal an unlimitted supply of 500psi steam, at times the steam would work for short runs but if the heat is not on full time it would freeze as soon as it is removed. So you must think temporary. BYPASS is the only way to get back in business quickly and stay that way until spring. Bypass the frozen line and heat trace and wrap the new line. Beware that the heat traceing you will buy at the local HomeHardware or Crappy tire will not be good to -40C. Look for a local industrial supplier for -50C heat tracing. Wrap it good with the proper glue backed insulated tape and then cover that line with something that will help block the wind. 200 ft of heat trace and wrap won't be cheap, but you will bury the new line and heat trace this spring when you do the permanent fix and never need to worry about freezing lines again.
Good Luck and think TEMPORARY.
Thanks canuckguy...
checked on ground heaters..500-750 a day plus fuel for 3 or 4 days...ouch!
An electrician buddy of ours lent us 150 ' of heat tape and I am thinking about fishing it into
the waterline as far as it will go and slowly melt the ice then heat trace as soon as thawed.
Tomorrow morning we're going to try the heat tape as fish and thaw plan that is fast, quick and easy.
Do you think the heat tape inside the pipe will fry it?? Should we abort mission and go direct to overland???
TEMPORARY sounds like a damn good plan right now. Had to show it to head office...she was impressed as well.
Thanks for your advice. Appreciate it very much
cheers,
silver
Silver,
I really think your p$#ing in the wind trying to thaw the line by fishing heat tape down it. I pressume the line is frozen solid now, that heat tracing/tape gets hot enough to melt ABS and PVC but doesn't melt solid ice like a blow torch. Here is the problem with thawing it and not doing something to keep it thawed. Once you go to all the trouble of thawing it it will probably freeze solid again the same night, so you are back to where you started. It might even already be split due to the freeze.
Here is what I would do. I would abandon the frozen line and just keep it buried for now. Prepare a new ABS line with heat tracing and insulation wrap. Feed the new line with a new footvalve on it down into the water source, connect at the pump, just lay the line on the ground and prime the line. Connect to the pump and energize the system. Live with the line until spring them you can go back to the frozen line. Bury the new line next summer with heat tracing and all. I would drain and leave the old line in and keep it there as a back up system in the case of the new line developing a leak or worse yet freeze someday!!!
Let us know how you made out.
Johnny D/Canuckguy
Thanks Johnnie D,
I'm too old to piss in the wind ...we're with the program now...temporary overland asap.
Will heat tape work(much cheaper) or should we just spend the bucks on -50C heat trace.My electrical buddy can supply HEAT TRACE at 4 bucks a foot/not too painful...
Hay/straw for covering and bank snow on top of that...
I'm busier right now than a one-handed paper hanger so I appreciate your short answer. We aborted heat tape inside mission and are moving on to temp overland. Head office is on board..go for launch...
CHEERS,
silver
Silver,
Short answers, heat tape if temps not below -40C with windchill. I have -40C heat tracing wrapped with insulation tape and am on the lakefront of Erie, never had a problem, however the line is protected by the building. As long as -40C rating either should do it. Again depends on YOUR temps. Those with the -40C lines exposed are frozen down here.
Straw protection is OK in my books, cover it good, with anything you can find. At the plant we would use anything from plywood to pizza boxes. Had a lot of those in Hamilton.
YO: I went behind the hay barn yesterday and found 200' OF 75' PSI 1" WATERLINE left over from a job last summer;and buddy electric came up with 160' of 5 watt roof heating cable for 75 bucks.
I seem to be on the 24/7 shift at the moment but as soon as the dust settles I plan to :
string the 1" water line, maybe on 2x4's;
tape the 5 watt heating cable to the bottom of the waterline;temps now -10F max.
wrap with sill gasket
top with a loose layer of 2" FIBERGLAS
CHEAPO plastic
and bank with natural filler ,snow
and then:my fav, part turn on the water
silver