I have been doing research into Modern Methods of constructing energy efficient buildings that would make construction easier and less expensive. Today we use a number of materials that don’t make the structure better. Some may just start a chain reaction of problems in the future, example tightly built homes with poor air circulation growing mold on paper faced wall board, EIFS Stucco systems causing building to rot out within a few months.
Anyone with experience in the Future Methods would be interesting to hear from you. We must use the new systems but have to get our acts together to stop the crap from becoming common place in practice.
Find a list I started on the links below of what I think a promising advancements.
Replies
I'd be amazed of the state of Georgia would start using SIP panels more and also PEX. Unfortunately, I don't think the illegals would know how to spell SIP or PEX and as such wouldn't work.
Still, I would love to build a house in North Georgia using 10" SIP walls and +12" SIP roof panels. I know SIP isn't new nor is it modern in the rest of the country/world, but it is in Georgia. :)
EIFS does not cause mold and or rot.
It is the idiots who install in such a way as to inject water, trap it, and leave it by the piiss poor flashing work they do.
So are you talking methods or materials?
Since your one example was a material, I'll put up OSB with no housewrap or tarpaper as one method/material that needs to get left behind in the mud.
Going forward? I love ICFs
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Yes and yes, generally you give 10 average people the same materials and you get 10 different results Even with the minimum code. Then add-in different local, climate and budgets.
Probably what we need are preconstructed panels, such as SIPs, ICFs,SCIPs to minimize these Big fluctuations in basic construction.
Prefabbed everything is not the answer to construction defects. Education and pride in craftsmanship have worked in the past, and they work today. They will work tomorrow, too. Quality structures are not built and forgotten. They are bought and sold, damaged and repaired, remodeled, added onto, and sometimes restored. Knowledge, skills, and caring are needed every step of the way through the structure's life cycle.Consumer education and a culture of excellence in the trades are mutually beneficial.Bill
Quality structures are not built and forgotten. They are bought and sold, damaged and repaired, remodeled, added onto, and sometimes restored. Knowledge, skills, and caring are needed every step of the way through the structure's life cycle.
There's a cogent mouthful that bears oft repeating.
It's a good foil to the crushed people stuck with a tract house they thought would be a home with the (admitttedly flawed) assumption of "if it's new, it won't have any problems, right?"
It's a distinction only few seem to "get" right away. Part and parcel of why it doesn't say "Fine Housebuilding" on the masthed, too, I'm thinking.
I'm increasingly of the opinion a (just 'a' not "the") way to start changing opinions is to start making a distinction between "home" builders and "house" builders.
The big tract builders are in business to trade in a commodity, that only accidentally is houses.
But, that's me.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
If I were like BillB, I could sayless and get more said, and it would be more worth repeating!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
If I were like BillB, I could sayless and get more said
I know this feeling, if only in the abstract <g> . . .
Tough not to stoke the brimstone once one gets into the pulpit, though.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I agree...I mean, I also appreciate his writing. :)
I have just finished (read I have my Occupancy permit) a new house in Michigan. I played GC on this myself. It was about 2400sq ft and is a ranch. It has a clearstory window design and is basically a rectangle with the garage hung off one end. Pretty simple as far as the basic shape goes.
When i started this project about a year ago, I looked at my options. 2X4 2X6 2X8, SIP, ICF and panelized construction. In ever case the cost increase from a well insulated 2X6 to the "better" methods was noticeable. I would love to have had a ICF but the cost difference was something on the order of 40k for the basic walls and that was doing the gables out of conventional wood.
As for the SIPS that was even more and the cost of doing spray in insul on the walls was so high that no one would even give me a price to put more then 4" in the ceiling. of the cathedral area. So the issue is a matter of cost. I can not justify an increase that large and thus this is a well insulated conventional house. In The case of the ICFs the cost would have been an increase in cost of about 20 to 25%. Total cost of construction was something like 210K (plus lot) And while you can say that an increase of 20% is not that bad this did not take into account other issues. Like the fact that the house would have had to get bigger on the outside to make the plan work and thus the roof would have gotten bigger, and cost more. And then you have the increase cost for things like supporting the floor and before you say that I was dealing with people that did not know what they were doing. Let me point out that I had talked with 3 different manufacturers and talked with at least 1 builder that each suggested (and my preferred system I talked with 3 recommended builders) i also talked with 3 or 4 builders in the area that did ICFs and they all were within about 10K of each other and all of them were at least 40K higher then stick built.
So while I love the new tech stuff I don't see it getting to the point of being common when it still has that big a increase on cost.
Doug Meyer
i agree doug, i don't think we will see many changes that aren't forced or economically advantageous.
i have tried for years to build a better mousetrap, but the speed, cost, availablity, and amount of skill required/familiarity make conventional 2x construction hard to beat.
i also think a large majority of contractors are mainly concerned about the bottom line, as well as most of the customers. you just can't get your money back out of alternative methods if you move every 7 years like the national average.
i think the key to the future methods is education and training as has been addressed i this thread. buildings are definitely tighter than the used to be, proper detailing to prevent mold/rot/air quality issues is the biggest thing for me.
segundo,
your point is well made, less than 1% of all homes are made other than stick framed which means 99% of all contractors have no experiance whatever!
But frankly it shouldn't be so.. SIP' are faster and ICF's are Cheaper. Both should offer some savings but with no prior experiance 99% of all bidders will bid higher not lower. The 1% with experiance will charge a premium because they know they can get it..
Those are the ones who will get rich.. they'll figure out the faster way to do things. develope the reputations and clients.
You cannot argue with the efiicency's both offer over conventional stick framing..
Plus I'm sorry to say, stick framing is going to become obsolete in the future.. There are 300 million Americans and before the middle of the next century there will be another 100 million. Instead of cutting down our forests people are buying the land and moving onto it. wood is bound to get too expensive to use for structural and instead will become more used for trim and design..
I think everyhouse within 100 mile from the coast, two foot thick concrete walls with concrete roofs, heavy steel plate shutters and steel plates doors. that way when hurricanes hit the coast instead of evacuation the town the biggest problem would be ,where the disney dvd are..
Umm, I'm about 10 miles from the coast. I don't think I want those heavy roofs over my head!Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Well Like I said I had looked at this and the cost that people seam to think of as being cheaper came out a LOT higher on my quotes. I wonder if this is a matter of when it was done?
I know that concrete in my area (metro Detroit) has gone up a LOT in the last year or two and that the cost of foam insul. board has gone up even more so I wonder if perhaps this is part of my higher quotes.
Oh well like I said if these can become economical it is great but I really did the numbers and I was looking at almost a 50% increase in cost buy the time everything was said and done. This takes in the cost of the forms the cost of the conc. the installation, (I was not doing this my self) the increased cost of electrical (no plumbing in outside walls) the increase cost of installing the windows and the fact that I had to increase the house size a bit to make the plan still work. But just the materials and labor for the forms/conc was about 20 to 25% higher then just doing it conventional and the cost of labor was not that much more then with stick built so mostly it was the forms and the concrete.
Doug Meyer
DougMeyer,
You see, that's my point. I sell equipment to contractors so I visit with them every day, all day long. Many are my friends having sold them equipment years ago and they still refer others to me.. so it's natural we discuss buiness.
I was a strong advocate of SIP's and ICF's for more than a decade.. many of those who do that for a living started in part because of my conversations.. I pointed out the advantages and they got into it when everybody was still killing the fat hog building stick framed houses for 8,9,$10 a sq.ft. and more..
They got into SIP's or ICF's and learned how. Learned some of the tricks and short cuts. They could afford to because if someone wanted a SIP or ICF home they expected to pay a premium because they were relatively rare.
That's the issue, not that there is anything more expensive about ICF's or SIP's It's just that untill very recently they could command a real premium. After the intial learning phase that added premium meant they could put more money in their pocket.
The market was willing to pay for it so they took advantage of it..
Right now instead of the $10 or more per sq foot the contractors used to get to frame up a house it's now down to $5.00
roughly 1/2 of what they used to get..
SIP and ICF contractors can still do it at a profit at those prices.. just shows you how much profit there used to be in it! Stick framers on the other hand are often just barely making payments or keeping crews busy. There isn't 50% more efficency to be had in stick framing.
Maybe that's not clear enough..
Previously SIP and ICF contractors could quote 14 or 15 dollars a square foot for their labor, today they do it for $5 dollars sq.ft. and still make a profit..
Due to the slow down and competition from companies prices on concrete hasn't increased at the wholesale level, but contractors now know where to cut those costs. For example they used to budget $1500 for the concrete pump, today it costs them $250 The forms have either gotten cheaper or remained the same due to manufacturing efficencies gained in spite of the increase in material costs..
The concrete company's are spending money selling the ICF concept. You can't go to a home show without stumbeling over displays and great introductory offers.. Several of my stick framing contractors have been approached with offers of jobs and training..
Doug,
I'm surprised Doug, I found SIP panels would be cheaper than conventional stick frame and insulation (not to mention better, faster, etc..) My foundation was ICF's and because I was able to do it myself I saved well over $10,000 on the lowest quote I got from either poured walls or block foundation.
ICF's are so simple to do that I cannnot believe it! Shortly after I started the walls, I went on a trip and screwed up my back which had me bedridden for nearly a month..My sister-inlaw with no prior construction experiance (well she did paint and wallpaper her old house) finished it for me with little more than 10 minutes discription..
How hard can it be to put leggos together?
Pouring the cement took a little over and hour and since my back was real dodgy I had a local kid hold the hose for me while I directed his efforts.. it went together with no drama and my daughter vibrated the walls to ensure their was no air entrapped by holding a reciprocating saw with the blade removed against the forms..
So it took a cripple, a kid, and my teenaged daughter, none of which had any experiance a little over and hour..
SIP's too are a no brainer and very cheap to do!
Now plumbers all told me horror stories about working with SIP's.. warned me about the hassles..
frankly all the plumbiing comes up thru the floors and interior walls are stick framed so there wasn't a single bit of added hassle.
NO electricain wanted to do my wiring, but that too was so simple to do that I did it myself.. IF I had a lot of wires in outside walls I could have ordered them with wire chases wherever I wanted them, instead I drilled my own chases in the field. long extensions and it went so easy I wondered what all the fuss was about.. If after the fact I'd wanted to put a wire in the wall that certainly is easy enough! Again there are enough stick framed interior walls that I can run wire chases in the same as any other construction..
In retrospect it is very easy to do and cost effective..
The proof is in the pudding, my heating bills with bigger house, more windows, the same furnace and higher fuel costs are about 1/3 of what they were when it was stick framed and well insulated..
the last three projects i worked on were i.c.f.'s. i think where they stand out is below grade,with the interior only requiring sheetrock or whatever[no additional insulation].above grade you can't beat 2x6,24"o.c.for price and performance.
Bill:
There is more to a problem construction than skills and knowledge, but rather the desire to not be lazy in one's practice and not take the path of cheapness for the ease of wallet robustness.
Isn't the whole reason why code inspectors exist is because we can count on bad quality of work being conducted? Now mate that concept to one in which the code inspectors are lazy, too. And then compound that into a nice product of dispair when the municipality has lazy or no codes.
Of course I am talking about my locality and all three variables lead to dispair when 99% of the homes built are terrible. If consumers get educated and refuse to buy then the apartment industry booms but the original problem will not get fixed--rather it will adjust to focus on desperate buyers willing to take sh!t under the shingle.
Nuke,My reference to "a culture of excellence in the trades" referred to a form of self-governing behavior motivated by greater self respect. When a man respects himself truly, he will not WANT TO engage in shameful behavior such as building defective structures. Self respect and conscience go hand in hand.Laws and regulations cannot by themselves ensure proper behavior. They exist to check wrong behaviors, but can only be effective when the populace respects the principles behind the laws and generally agree with what those laws were meant to do. Don't you think that an educated consumer base can support a few honorable builders? I do, and many on our BT community are sterling examples of that principle in action.Bill
"My reference to "a culture of excellence in the trades" referred to a form of self-governing behavior motivated by greater self respect. When a man respects himself truly, he will not WANT TO engage in shameful behavior such as building defective structures. Self respect and conscience go hand in hand."
This is a nice concept, but when everyday examples constantly bombard tradesmen with with less than stellar behaviors and practices its easy for the weak-willed mind to not follow. Not defending what happens, but rather I see it as a modern human condition seen almost everywhere. Teachers, doctors, priests, lawyers and politicians, parents, etc., etc., etc.
Hopefully measures will be taken into account someday by someone that will initiate a plan to eliminate 90% of the COO prospects because of the condition. Without COOs from the cookie cutter industry the other half may just step up to the plate. We far too easily allow worthless people in the trade, from the lowest grunt laborer to the chief planned community developer playing wrong. And none of this speaks of the methods in construction approaches to minimize energy impact on society and the future owners of the homes being built.
Nuke,I agree with your reply that, "This is a nice concept, but when everyday examples constantly bombard tradesmen with with less than stellar behaviors and practices its easy for the weak-willed mind to not follow. Not defending what happens, but rather I see it as a modern human condition seen almost everywhere. Teachers, doctors, priests, lawyers and politicians, parents, etc., etc., etc."I never said it was easy, or attainable by men of weak mind. Those who aspire to excellence will hopefully find a mentor and aspire to be like him. The path of dissolution and depravity always remains open for those who have no higher aspiration, but there is an alternative for those who want more out of life than mere things.It all comes down to the individual asking himself, "What sort of man (or woman) do I want to be today?" Free will decides.Bill
I think the key to making homes quality and affordable is looking to the tradition of Hotrod building. Using good materials, with a simple design. Dedicating real space to the mechanicals, instead of trying to hide them in the attic or crawl space. What's wrong with a gable roof?
I agree. Just because the current home design as seen from the street doesn't 'look' exciting when compared to the competitor's property down the street doesn't mean you cannot sell the house and make a profit. I have yet to see a single home around me (I see thousands of homes being built around me within a 1-2 mile radius) get built and remain unsold.
So, why not go back to the basics and make a rectangular box (traditional colonial?) but make it out of SIPs (10" walls, 12" ceiling), and build them where conventional exterior noise would make conventional stick framing less attractive. SIPs go well beyond the conventional application of thermal performance and delve straight into acoustical insulation. Erection time is much quicker and if done with a steel skeleton then the OSB/Drywall variety of SIPs can be applied and rapidly reduce the framing, sheathing, insulation, and drywall steps.
Being that I was aware of SIPs before I walked into my cookie cutter home I would have paid more for a SIP home of the same rectangular box. Unfortunately, the track-builder mentality is 50-years back in the building philosophy.
Agreed, along with advanced training for installers, hard to achieve in a tight competitive environment
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffan
I have to agree with you on this one. ICF's are definately coming! They offer a lot for most of the country and as they become more and more common, their cost should continue to drop..
It used to be that ICF's commanded a premium, no longer! they can build with ICF's for the same price as well insulated well built stick houses, and soon should be able to do them cheaper..
IN the extreme cold weather we have here in Minnesota SIP's got the nod due to their greater thermal efficency..
SIP's are less common than ICF homes so there is a real premium to build with them. not because the material costs more or takes more time, but because less than 1% of homes are built with SIP's which means 99% of all contractors have no or extremely little experiance with them..
Given volume production SIP's would be significantly cheaper to build with than even ICF's. (not to mention greater thermal efficency!)
EIFS does not cause mold and or rot.
It is the idiots who install in such a way as to inject water, trap it, and leave it by the piiss poor flashing work they do.
So are you talking methods or materials?
Since your one example was a material, I'll put up OSB with no housewrap or tarpaper as one method/material that needs to get left behind in the mud.
Going forward? I love ICFs
Correct:
I supervised a 13 storey highrise leaky condo restoration. When the walls got opened up we found the mainproblem was architectural designed aluminum windows with mitred corners, sealed with caulking in the rainchannels. When the caulking failed water was dumped directly into the steelstud walls, rusting out steelstuds, soaking the fibrebatt insulation, rotting out drywall and floorcoverings when the water run under the bottom plates onto the concrete floors.
But the HOs all joined into the chorus of other leaky condo owners: the homes have no overhang, the EIFs is lousy, the acrylic stucco should have never been used, etc..
No rainscreen or other materials would have prevented this desaster.
On top of it we also found: The only ventilation for the units consisted of a humidistat controlled bathroomfan which was shut off because of the noise it created.
You can imagine what happened when the HO (90% orientals) started their ricesteamers, watered the plants on the interior balconies and took hourlong showers coming home from work. Sometimes I thought I was back in the South Pacific
Subs and contractors will only get away with what people let them.
Codes need to be stricter, regulated, and enforced.
Exterior shell inspections need to happen. Both siding and roofing. Just because you can't see water coming doesn't mean that it's not.
Yes this means that the price of a home will go up, now that it's being done right. Less Mcmansions will go up, and the ones that do will be for people who can actually afford one.
The quality of builders themselves will improve with this as well.
That's exactly what I'm try yo say:) and why I think that wall floors roofs could be penalized to keep standard the same and if problems are discovered it would immediately change for all to benefit at the sane time not just for that one project that it was discovered on. rant rant rant:)
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Panelizing a home isn't going to get rid of poor workmanship. No way no how.
Stricter codes and warranties will. Make a new home come with a 15 yr or longer warranty. If the builder won't honor a warranty then his liscense is removed and so is oppurtunity to get it back in the future.
Some of this rides on new home owners as well, they have to inspect their homes from time to time. Exterior caulking needs to be kept up on, as well as interior.
If they see something that looks out of place they need to do some research on it.
stilletto.... reminds me.... couple years ago.. stilletto hammers were the big rage..
if you googled on stilletto... you didn't get hammers
anyways....
<<<<Stricter codes and warranties will. Make a new home come with a 15 yr or longer warranty. If the builder won't honor a warranty then his liscense is removed and so is oppurtunity to get it back in the future. >>> i think that would be a good example of the law of unintenede consequences
stricter codes mean less flexibility..
who writes the codes ? do they know anything about flashing ?
and who interprets the codes ? the local BI... like builders , some are good.. some are not good.. they couldn't take acomplicated code and properly interpret or enforce it.. then we'd be in serious trouble
as for warranties.. screw that
i know lots of tract builders who offer the 10 year warranty.. what good does it do to a homebuyer with a crappy house ?
i know so many guys who used to be in business.. ( used to be )
most of them offered "lifetime warranty".. what good did that do..
your stricter codes and mandatory warranty would drive me out of business.. and in thirty years i've had no more that 3 dissatisfied customers..
the current code we have is the IRC 2003... that is a very complicated code.... anything more complex is just going to confuse the heck out of me.. and i don't look forward to arguig a more complex code with some dummy political appointee who happens to be the building inspector in some town
as for warranties.. have you ever read the Moss-Magnuson Act.. that's the federal law governing warranties... be careful what you wish for
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Crappy screen name, when I created my account I was looking at the head off my framing hammer, I snapped the handle off at work. Someone already had the name I wanted.
Anyway, as for the codes, thats the problem they don't know about things like flashing. And homeowners suffer the consequences. Code doesn't require them, builders don't install them, and HO's pay the price.
You include them on your jobs, I include them on mine. I put pans underneath windows (vinyl siding) why should we have to compete with people who don't care if the house lasts a week.
I guess I didn't mean stricter, they need tweaking. Alot of essential details are not required or fall into a gray area. A good example is flashing and housewraps. I hate installing housewrap, but it gives the home a skin that sheds water in case of a failure. No system is perfect so a second line of defense is needed.
And if they used to be in business and don't honor their warranty, no more liscense for them. But the work had to be proven defective and the builder refuses to fix it. Not just a HO trying to keep some of their money.
I don't like complicated either. There are enough things in this field that are complicated.
I have seen your threads and how well thought out your jobs are. I find it hard to believe you would be out of business.
I have not read the act you are talking about either, I may not want them either. But a little more accountability for the big tract builders would be a good thing.
Mike, I'm with you on the complexity of the codes. Here in new york, As hard as I've tried to do things right there has been some lessons learned through trial and error, which I'm glad to know now. Recently , I bought the entire set of code books (7 in all). They are not written for the laymen or even a person with some training. I've got a 2 year architectural associates degree and it still left me scrathing my head at times. I think the code enforcement industry should offer regular seminars on understanding codes for the contractors who really want to know and do the right thing. just my 2 cents"it aint the work I mind,
It's the feeling of falling further behind."Bozini Latini
The problem with tieing it to licensure and warranty, is that the corporate group, will never be licensed, just some throw away employee, who is the "qualified individual".
The fifteen year warranty might work, if you require a bond to enforce it. If you tie it to the company, they will just dissolve every five years, and reincorporate.
And since unlike some of the other professions, not all the states even have a licensing requirement, and those that do aren't tied together in reciprocating agreements, they can just bounce from state to state.
Most states, if you can pass the test, (which many boards can waive if they want to), and get bonded, you are a contractor.
A friend of mine worked for a multinational construction company, that specialized in finding subs who's licenses were suspended because they had lost their bond, and couldn't't get rebonded. They would then, have their bonding side of the company bond these guys to work on their contracts. After they drove them through tight schedules to do garbage work, they would cut them loose, when the customer complained, and put the blame on the small sub.
When I learned we did not use caulking. We learned to fit things right. The caulking that was available then was junk. Today I see so much poor workmanship and ignorance being perpetuated.
>>Today I see so much poor workmanship and ignorance being perpetuated.<<
Thats a problem that we all see everyday. And thats why remodeling is going to be a strong area in the near future.
It already is. I started seeing a lot of problems with buildings built around 1990. Most all of them were due to flashing problems.Many of the construction management students today have little interest in construction. They just want to make money. So it is with so many contractors.
The new people in the field aren't worried about the consequences of their actions. They just see that if they skip flashing and other details they can put an extra $100 in their pocket.
The new people in the field aren't worried about the consequences of their actions. They just see that if they skip flashing and other details they can put an extra $100 in their pocket. I get to be around and follow behind a lot of new people in the field. I honestly don't think I've ever seen anyone in residential work take pre-mediated shortcuts.These new guys just don't know any better. Slap and dash is all they've seen. Most never have to go back and fix anything, so they never get to find out the consequences of something that's poorly detailed.It's probably always been this way, there's just so much more of it now.Personally, I think some form of panelized building is going to take over stick framing, way much easier to control quality, efficency, and energy usage. "But to be honest some folks here have been pushing the envelope quite a bit with their unnecessary use if swear words. They just put a character in to replace a letter. But everyone knows what they're saying." Sancho
Good post, I think you are right. They don't know any better. Or like I said don't know the consequences of what they are not doing.
I had a set of plans handed to me the other day that all the walls are prebuilt in a factory. Numbered and shipped to the job.
I think if panelizing houses becomes popular then that is yet another step in the process newbies won't see, the stick building aspect of the house.
"Personally, I think some form of panelized building is going to take over stick framing, way much easier to control quality, efficiency, and energy usage."Imagine what things will be like when that kind of building is not flashed properly. I find today that even many architects do not know proper ways of doing things. Years ago I was doing some stairs for a contractor. He came back and told me what I did was wrong. I told him that I had been doing it that way for over 30 years. I also told him about an article in Fine Woodworking years ago. I then asked him about how he was trained to do it. He told me that he was never trained how to cut stairs. He had worked for one of the best builders in the area and still did not know how to properly cut a set of stairs so they could be finished properly.There are too many people who really do not care enough to learn well. They are not willing to pay the price to learn all they can. Just look at the balusters and hand rails being installed in buildings today. How many dovetail the balusters into the tread. The majority of companies selling handrails and balusters make it "easy" for the installer. That kind of thing was unheard of years ago. How many vocational students and their teachers even know how to cut a tight dovetail? There was a time when the schools led the industry now the school tries to come up to what the industry is doing. I would be ashamed if all I could do was to make something no better than what industry could using its machines and lack of design. The door fronts on cabinets built in industry look like sticks of wood glued together and people think it is quality just because it is built from a certain kind of wood or has a particular joint in the drawers. Cabinets are about design and function not just about a finish that looks nice for a few years. Even the public today does not have a clue about what it takes to do a nice job. Their expectations are very low. All that makes it nice for me because when I sell a job I tell them about other things they need to know and because of that I almost always get the contract from people who want quality. The man who taught me was the same way. Junk can be purchased cheaply but it takes a master to build something nice that will last for many more years then the people will live.
Stricter codes and warranties will. Make a new home come with a 15 yr or longer warranty. If the builder won't honor a warranty then his liscense is removed and so is oppurtunity to get it back in the future.
Some of this rides on new home owners as well, they have to inspect their homes from time to time. Exterior caulking needs to be kept up on, as well as interior.
If they see something that looks out of place they need to do some research on it.
It is not the answer either. More regulations and codes will just get bogged down in the quagmire of legal interpretation if the chips are down.
I was on the board when they were planning to implement the HomeOwnerProtection Program. Initially they could not even agree what defines a major structural default!!! To this day the HO of leaky condos are still waiting for recompensation. The warranty program went bust, HO lost their homes and condos because the NEW HomeOwner Warranty Program did not cover the old agreements. Good quality building is not achieved thru legislation. It comes from excellent training and experience. Unless this issue is addressed by Apprenticeship programs and the absence of greed HOs will suffer from the "good enough" attitude. We build homes with the intention of not needing any warranty. We had two service calls in 35 years (we also made very little money) but I sleep very well.
You are absolutely right: HO have to maintain their homes. But who trains them to do so?
semar,
Not only who trains the home owners, but often where can they obtain equipment that allows them to maintain the various things.. I shudder when I see 70 year old men dragging out ladders to put screens on and take storm windows off.. You know that sooner or later they will be 2 stories up reaching out!
Their budgets aren't fat enough to hire other to do it for them and the elderly often are taken by many scams on rip offs that they soon tire and let things go.
Single mothers and frankly some men too are at risk doing chores you and I might consider ordinary..
As one said before:
The building code is the worst construction you can legally get by
Another problem is that quality ususally costs more money, which, not everybody has, but everyone needs a place to live, so not all building is going to be quality...a lot of restrictions might make a lot more renters...now, I want y'all to get right out and cut your gasoline usage by 20%<G> "But to be honest some folks here have been pushing the envelope quite a bit with their unnecessary use if swear words. They just put a character in to replace a letter. But everyone knows what they're saying." Sancho
Quality actually might cost less, saving insurance cost, not having to rebuild, saving labour and material cost.
I say build your own gas station, why give the money to foreign strangers.
I advocate building with STRUCTURAL Air, like many of the companies listed on by pic blogs:
http://ergodesk.blogspot.com/
http://ergodesk.wordpress.com/
The way I see it, it's all education...teach yer children well, and your aunts and uncles, your clients, inspectors, senators, and then, there's a free trip to the Bahamas for every energy star certification...hey, we'll sneak right up on this<G> "But to be honest some folks here have been pushing the envelope quite a bit with their unnecessary use if swear words. They just put a character in to replace a letter. But everyone knows what they're saying." Sancho
A college kid on an automotive board I frequent just posted this:
"This is a link to what my entire building construction class worked on last semester. A new team worked on each building system every week and the information is very complete. These links are comprised of 3-4 months worth of comprehensive research of traditional vs. emerging systems by college students studying to work in this field ."
http://buildingconstruction.editme.com/Principles1BuildingSystems
I've thought a lot about construction methods and the way we do things. I feel that the industry has come a long way in trying to resolve moisture, thermal, structural issues. Think before LVLs and I joists came on the scene. I've also installed more vycore the past five years than the previous ten. things have gotten better. the problem I see is the lack of formal training. Most workers are not trained by cerified people or manufacturers, they are trained by foreman who may or may not have accurate training themselves. Education is a big part of the problem. THe other major part of the problem is the need to make money and get things done quickly, and unfortunately cheaply. when things are thrown together, the details get overlooked. The solution is to start with the attitude of building and turn it into something tadespeople want to take pride in and do well, offer training at low or no cost from the manufacturers or retailers (no more $210 million severence pays from the home depot).
And finally , institute liscensing to weed out those who don't know and force the ones winging it to actually apply themselves to learn and pass exams that make them qualified. You can't draw a house without qualification, why should we be able to build one? If people love what they do they will do it well.
"it aint the work I mind,
It's the feeling of falling further behind."
Bozini Latini
I once saw a documentary about the construction of a condo building in Switzerland.
All the panels - walls, floors, ceilings - were manufactured in a factory to exacting standards. Even the plumbing, electric, and HVAC are part of these panels, and have connectors that join as the panels assemble in the field. The panels were being made to extremely tight tolerances, the sort you measure with a micrometer, not a tape measure.
It would not surprise me one bit for this sort of "construction" to become more common. With office computers and design programs, doing the engineering necessary is not the chore it once was. A factory floor offers opportunities for quality control that simply can't be found anywhere else. Finally, job site labor, time, and weather exposure are kept to a minimum.
Otherwise ... I visited the local Gypsy fortune-teller with this question : How will homes be built in the future? Her answer was in Spanish ... :D
that was a "this old house" with Bob. I remember that one too.
Great discussion topic, and one close to my own thinking. In the Chicago area, where I operate, the one obstacle that stands out consistently is the prohibition of some materials in both plumbing and electrical, which are in common use in the rest of the country, i.e. romex wiring and plastic (pex and plastic dwv) for plumbing. In the City of Chicago, you must use lead sheet to line your new shower base, and cast iron for your wastes and vents. The dangers of contact with lead are well documented, and I have seen rotten cast iron literally drop out of a ceiling from sewer gas deterioration, but that does not seem to stop those who impose these prohibitions on modern construction materials. If we can't get past cast iron and lead, what will happen in these markets when nanomaterials like aerogel hit the market? IMHO, it is the trade politics, specifically building officials, material manufacturers and union lobbyists who block the introduction and use of new materials and methods. There needs to be a sustained effort to reverse this blockage.
Databoy,
As a strong advocate of ICF's and SIP's I don't agree with you.. I love new technology but only when well proven..
I can see arguements in favor of older techniques, for example romex is extremely easy to penetrait and then you have a potentially dangerous situation.
ICF's have been around long enough to be well proven same with SIPs plastic on vents and drains? too many potential problems (and I use it in my house)
Great input to the discussion.
The way I see it, Stone and concrete is great for building but heavy and wasteful trying to gain the suitable R values required today. Sooo using more modern materials along with engineering we can gain the benefits required to reduce costs and reduce construction times.
http://ergodesk.blogspot.com/
http://ergodesk.wordpress.com/
Hello Mr. Ergo:
While I can't add anything to this discussion other than another opinion, I love the links you've provided. I agree with the other posters - change is almost impossible to enact. Consumers, by and large, are more concerned with flash (i.e. granite countertops - hello, mega carbon footprint!) than with quality windows or better insulated exterior walls. Some folks can't think beyond the initial cost. The dollars they'll save and the extra comfort from a properly built home they'll receive are almost priceless. Plus, a lot of consumers don't have any idea what constitutes "quality" construction. When I look around at most of today's homes I see incredible energy losses that are costing us our futures. The energy savings by just tightening up houses everywhere would surely add up to unbelievable savings of our non-renewable resources.
What I can't understand is why in heaven's name we still design houses with so much heat loss. The Building Code requires half a household air change per hour in this part of Canada! Think of it, half of the heated air in your home is designed to escape to the cold outdoors and be replaced by drafts and cold spots. This is insanity. In this day and age, HRVs have to be made mandatory. Then you can get the air exchange, but capture most of the heat. You end up with a better air quality in the home and a lower energy bill - who could argue with that? I mean, I'm all for ICFs, etc. but what is this wasted energy costing us? You could probably heat a small city with what's lost alone. Tract builders aren't going to adopt major changes - the heating and cooling isn't their problem - it's the homeowner's. What's in it for the tract builder? Nothing.
No, the code has to change and change quickly and one of the quickest ways is to capture some that escaping heat. It's only one step, but it's surely a start. My .02 worth, anyway.
Cheers,
Ken
"They don't build 'em like they used to" And as my Dad always added... "Thank God!"
GreatWhiteNorthGuy,
I like your thinking.. however it has limited application.. putting a HRV in a stick built house is like putting lipstick on a hog..
While it might make some minor improvement assuming the house is tightened up, that tightening is an ongoing battle.. few even approach let alone maintain..
However in already tight homes like SIP's or ICF's A HRV makes massive sense..
Once the relative efficency becomes the subject for wives to gossip about.. ("Janes heating bills were so low last winter that this winter they are going on vacation to Florida with the savings,....") real efficency will become a selling tool.. untill then it tends to be a subject for us energy freaks and techno geeks.
putting a HRV in a stick built house is like putting lipstick on a hog..Frenchy, sometimes you just make me cover my eyes and shake my head...then the hysterical laughter sets in....bwwwwaaaaaahhhhaaaahhhaaaahhhhhh, hear it? "But to be honest some folks here have been pushing the envelope quite a bit with their unnecessary use if swear words. They just put a character in to replace a letter. But everyone knows what they're saying." Sancho
I spent the last couple of months as P M on a solar heated sips house. the first for the designer and us. and there were lots of problems the crew said never again unless it was a box with a simple gable roof. panels were wrong sizes, missing wrong angles.didn't fit together good most first floor panels required a 2x 10 vert every 4 ft between panels and kings and trimmers at windows and doors ...too much wood and thermal paths to be energy efficient, too much possibility of air infiltration between panels even with spray foam between. For energy efficiency i would go for ICF the concrete gives better weather and fire protectiopn more likely to be air tight etc.