I am getting ready to run some lights in a little 2 car garage and I am wanting something that will put out some good light enough to wax a car at night. Is there something better than fluorescent???
Discussion Forum
Discussion Forum
Up Next
Video Shorts
Featured Story
Listeners write in about haunted pipes and building-science tomes, and they ask questions about roof venting and roof leaks.
Highlights
"I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.
Replies
A brighter light would be metal halide. They are somewhat more expensive and the glare and unnatural color bothers some people. They are very bright. They are the lights you see as streetlights (the bluish white ones, not the golden yellow ones).
It might be better to put in a lot of fluorescents. You might be able to put in a lot for the price of a few metal halides. Regular cool white fluorescents have pretty bad color rendering. If you want better color, I'd suggest higher color rendering index lamps such as what GE calls SP41. Regular cool whites have a CRI of 62, the SP line has a CRI of 70 to 73, and their high end SPX line, 82. I think SPX is more than you need just for waxing. The "41" refers to the color temperature, which is a measure of the warmness or coolness of a lamp. A lower number, like 30, is warmer -- like incandescent light. A higher number, like 41, is more bluer -- more towards daylight. None of these would work when the temperature is below about 50 or 55°F. They'll flicker.
You can get "high-output" fluorescents which work in colder temperatures, but in fewer choices of color.
Another alternative is supplement general lighting with a work light on a pole, such as a quartz work light. You could move it around so you can get it at just the right angle to view your fabulous shine job.
Does the cold temperature affect the tube or the ballast?
Tom
One thing to keep in mind is that flourescents have the unique ability to show off swirl marks exceptionally well. You will see things you never see in bright sun. This can be good or bad depending on if you WANT to see them.
bit
Edited 2/18/2003 1:43:32 AM ET by Bitman
I've had flourescents in my detached garages and I can tell you nothing works worth a damn when it hits below 30 degrees. Yes some will light for a while but most of the time it just glows. The tube is the problem.
Supposition here... but the tube gets a high voltage surge to ignite / excite the interior gas from the ballast. This surge starts a release of photon's by taking the gas up to an "excited" state, It appears to be a mechanical activity problem. Gas contracts and gets less active when cold. It is the exchange of electrons from the anodes that makes the gas release the photons. The long and short of it is the gas is not exchanging electrons well when it is cold. Heat the garage for a while and it will be fine.
Back to the problem of lighting the garage. I gave up on the flourescents and replaced the lights with outlets that are switched. These outlets in the ceiling give me the place to plug in the clip on incandescent lamps and the occasional tool when required. The clip on's are cheap as dirt and can be redirected as well as relocated to allow for any details you may want to illuminate.
Metal halide and halogen lamps are too bright and directional for my taste. I don't want to see the source, just the effect.Jack of all trades and master of none - you got a problem with that?
I've got screw-in flourescents in my unheated garage and they've worked pretty well for me. I got some pretty big ones (I think they're equivalent to 150W incandescent). They start right up, even when the weather is really cold. They're on the ceiling though, so it's possible that they don't get below 30 very often. Color rendering is decent too.
Pete
In deference to you and Mr Hartman there is one thing that Flourescents do that tends to bother me. They don't really die, they just peter out. If you are on your toes and changed the lamps pretty often I suppose it would always look great.
BTW I just looked into the Philips Lighting catalog and found the following on Flourescents.
Econowatt style lamps aren't supposed to be used below 60 degrees F.
T5 (5/8" diameter lamps) have lumen outputs reduced at different ambient temperatures. For example: a 24 inch HO T5 provides 2000 lumens @35 deg C and 1750 lumens @ 25 Degrees C. It seems the cold affects the output.
There is no other great detail on the lamp temperature debate to be found in the Philips catalog. We are changing over to GE ( I work for an electrical distribution house) and as soon as I find one of the GE catalogs I'll cruise thru it to see if they have some tidbits of info worth sharing.Jack of all trades and master of none - you got a problem with that?
I used to use regular incandescent for the garage opener, needless to say I had to replace the bulb more often than I wanted to. Then I switched to those incandescent designed for garage openers and they didn't do much better. As a final resort I put in a screw in fluorescent bulb and it's been more than two years now with no trouble. Although it is rated for something like 5 Celcius, it works through winters with temperatures in the minus teens (Celcius).
Tom
As my garages are unattached I get no benefit from spill-over house heat so I probably get a more serious light loss due to the cold in my application. Flickering, struggling to get lit, lighting makes it seem all the more dire in cold weather. I just avoid the flourescents out there.
I see more and more of the screw in type flourescents being used. Yours sounds successful. Possibly a quality lamp ballast combination would make a difference.
I get most of my fixtures when they get beat up on the truck or were returned from the customer. Most Mfgr's simply scrap the fixture at the distributor. Shipping , recycling, and convience gives the manufacturers reason to forget any value residual. I get the leftovers for nothing. Can't beat the price although the selection is quirky. I have enough wattage in my shop I can work with my eyes closed and still see what I'm doing.
Jack of all trades and master of none - you got a problem with that?
It depends on the specific bulb and ballast.
I don't know what the 8ft HO lights are rated for, but a lot of them are used in outdoor applications.
And I have a Panasonic CFL that is rated to -10 and I have it in an outdoor fixture and it has not failed to come on.
Both. To work in cold weather the tubes must be designed for cold weather operation. These tubes must be operated on a ballast designed to light those tubes. So, you have to buy both rated for the cold.
An electrical supplier would have lamp and fixture catalogs with all the ratings (operating temperature, lumens, watts, size, voltage, color temperature, color rendering index, etc.) for all types of lights. Select fixtures for your conditions.
The screw in fluorescents that screw into standard incandescent fixtures can tolerate more cold than standard cool white tubes, but not a whole lot colder. The temperature ratings are generally marked on the package. Sometimes they are in Celcius and burried in the fine print.
Would you consider spraying your ceilings and walls white if they are plain wood now? The effect of white compared to brown is considerable.
Someone above already mentioned it and I'll second it. You need to get the brigther flourescents. Also, be sure to get the 8' commercial-type fixtures- they're easier to get a variety of lamps for.
In my garage (19' wide X 44' long) I ran two rows, five fixtures each, down the length and when they're all on it's VERY bright! I probably over did, but now I'm used to it.
Jim
Rocky nothing is simple.
After looking in the Philips catalog I found the little tidbits above on the Flourescent temperature phenomonon. I just reviewed the GE catalog and it is full of footnoted tidbits. Here they are:
All these paraphrased from the GE Lighting catalog
Watt-Miser and energy efficient lamps are to be used at 60 Deg. F and above.
Cold temp lamps are for temperatures below 60 deg F. They work to -20 F. Wind chill does have an effect and windy applications recommend to use the jacketed lamp and the T10 rather than the T12 (the number represents 1/8 of inches)
Ballasts are rated to 50 deg F normally. 0 deg and -20 deg F ballasts are available.
4 pin lamp flourescents best performance is at 77 deg F Minimum design temp is 50 F
Compact 4 pin or screw base lamps run best base up (above the lamp) Base down decreases the lumens by 5 %
Compact lamps are life rated at 3 hrs per start, Straight tube Flourescents are rated at 12 hours per start.
4 foot lamp is 10 percent more efficient than shorter versions. 8 foot lamps are 5% more efficient than that.
Things in the mirror are closer than they appear.
The rub is you need to take into account the temperature and the windy level of the place these lights go.
If you are concerned about efficiency then consider this:
Edison's first lamp 1.4 Lumens per Watt
Incandescent 10-40LPW
Halogen 20-45 LPW
Flourescent 35-100 LPW
Mercury Vapor 50-60 LPW*
Metal Halide 80-115 LPW*
High-Pressure Sodium 100-140 LPW *
All of these with the Asterisk have discharge ballast losses of 10 to 20 percent that need to be factored into the LPW. SO if energy efficiency is your goal then this could help.
Edited 2/19/2003 2:35:55 PM ET by Booch
>>
Compact 4 pin or screw base lamps run best base up (above the lamp) Base down decreases the lumens by 5 %
Mine is mounted sideways to the right, decreases by 2.5% ?
HeHeHe.
Tom
Could be. I posted all of that stuff with the hope we learn something from the interrelated facts. That one I feel is heat related. Hotter anode and cathode seems to increase the lumen output. Heat rises and heats the anode with the base up?
I call em as I see em. If I don't see em I make em up!
(Casey Stengle?)
Jack of all trades and master of none - you got a problem with that?
Edited 2/20/2003 12:33:56 PM ET by Booch
>> Compact lamps are life rated at 3 hrs per start
No wonder my compact flourescents don't last as long as advertised. With kids, they probably get 100 hrs or more of use some days. Any clues in this book on why compacts take so long to come up to full power?
I use one in my computer room, it's rated for 100 watts light. Flip the switch, and takes about 2 seconds for the light to come on. Then it's dim. Over the next 5-10 minutes it gradually gains brightness until you get full light, which is about that of a 75 watt incandescent. Just my view, these don't put out the light they claim to. I use them, but I have started upsizing every bulb. Replacing 60 w/ 75, 75 w/ 100, ect.. I've several times taken out a 60 watt bulb that's plenty bright, put in a compact, find it's too dim, and put the 60 watt back in.
Just one comment, someone mentioned the possibility of accidentally bumping your flourescent tubes with a 2x4, ect. For a dollar or 2 per. tube, you can buy a protective sleeve that you slide your lamp into. They'll help prevent breakage to some extent, but the main purpose is if you bump a lamp and it explodes, the mess is contained. Good idea if you're using bare bulb fixture (no diffusing cover). Any electrical supply store will have these. I should get some for the lamp over my workbench.
The less you turn and off the longer they last. The three hour minimum run gives the maximum life. Like any lamp the more you turn it on and off the shorter the life. Warming up may be pretty literal on these lamps. at higher temps the lamp puts out more lumens.
The wattage / lumen / CRI thing is all about your personal visual perception. Personally, I hate the pulsating 60 Hz thing that a flourescent puts out. I stick with incandescents and Halogens just for how it makes me feel.
Color rendition may be your problem with the 75 watters that seem like 60's. Lumens are the light output but it doesn't necessarily mean you can see/feel it all . "Cool white" isn't sunlight it is just the most efficient light a flourescent puts out. There is a thing called CRI (Color Rendition Index) that puts a percentage on how close to the distribution to the visiable parts of sunlight a lamp is. Unless you are looking for it no one thinks about it.
The sleeves are a great thing and are in the industrial world in spades. GE makes some tubulars that comes pre shrunk on the tube. It helps the CRI per their literature.Jack of all trades and master of none - you got a problem with that?
Thanks much for the info.
>>Lumens are the light output but it doesn't necessarily mean you can see/feel it all.
I like the compact flourescents, but it seems they must count some of the unseeable light in their lumen counts. Seems like false advertising to me, but it does get them up to that magic 4 times more light per watt of energy. Just my take, replace your incandescents with compacts, it'll save you money. Just upsize one level when you do.
I personally don't notice the flickering that bothers you, unless it's in the shop before it warms up.
I mentioned the protective tubes, because many people have no idea they exist. Not even sure big home centers carry them.
I have a couple of different brands. One does take about 2 seconds, but then it is on full. Then 2nd type comes on immediately.
The 3rd type I have is outside and on a photocell. I don't see it come on that often, but they appear to come on immediately. Actually it is a pair of them and they have lasted about 3 1/2 years until one fail and it was a mechanical failure and possible caused by me hitting the pole that it was on with a excevator bucket. But it worked a few months afterwards. But comparing remaining light with the new ones showed that it was at end of life.
All of the CFL that I have across the specs on had CRI's of about 82 so it is "quality" light. My guess is that the reason that they seem to not be as bright is that you don't have a consectrated light source, but that it is spread out and when it is projected then spreads out over a larger area.
BTW, lights with the electronic ballast don't have the 60 hz flicker problem that bothers some people.
I suspect that you have either a bad unit or a cheap unit and it is in a cool spot. Is by any chance a Lights of America unit. From my experience and from what I have heard from others they are POS.
I don't remember the brand, but it's a GE or other major name. And, it's in the middle of the house, not a cool spot at all. Still takes 1-2 seconds to come on, and 5 minutes or more to build up to full light, which is slightly better then a 75 watt bulb, not the 100 it claims to be. Looks like maybe a 60 watter when it first comes on.
If you mean the light's not concentrated just at the filament? I just don't see why that would make it seem so much dimmer. I have a 60 watt halogen over my sink, looks like a 40 watt bulb. Replaced 2 hall lights w/ 60's. Went back to incandescents, then later bigger flourescents. Every room I've ever replaced w/ a compact I've noticed a decrease in light. Been slowly upgrading them all to bigger ones. Have about 10 of them in use. Several rooms have dimmer switches, so I can't use them there. Several brands of CF's, all major names, all seem to have a delayed on if not used for a few hours.
You use some outside? Don't you have problems with cold? Do you think they'd work in an attatched garage, about 40°F? I currently have 2 150 watt monsters out there. Guess I'll put a CF in a lamp out there and see how it works. Sure would save some money going from 300 to about 75 watts.
On second thought I think that I used to have a CFL that was a slow starter like you said. I have an interior hall/stairwell that gets no nature light. And I work out of my home so it is on whenever I am up, about 16 hours a day.
Now that you mentioned it the first CFL that I had worked like that. It was a capsule type with a magnetic ballast. I would first turn it on when I went out to get the moring paper and it was usually on by the time that I got back in. After it fail, about 4 years, I replaced it with a different one with the open tripple tubes.
From a quick glance it appears that all of the CFL's are rated for "cool" temps starting at about 30. But many of the capsule type are rated at -10 to -30.
In my application I have a pair of the Pansonic 28 watt units with a slip on reflector. They are rated at -22. They are mount in a pair of boxs about 12" sq and about 6" deep with a porclian socket in them. This they are in the open, but shielded from the weather.
Here is a link to a source for several different brands and sytles including 3 way and dimable.
ROY -
I have run CFL's in can lights for a few years without any problems. They really aren't seal. However, I was working in the attic and was surprised how warm one of the cans got, but it was still less than that from an incanensent bulb. So there is no danger from that point.
There might be a little extra heat buildup around the bulb which shortens it's life, but from my experience that is not significant.
I was in the Costco Warehouse store last summer and the impulse buy hit me to try CFL's. A got a 5 pack (about $16) and distributed them around the house. After a few weeks I added a second set of 5. I like them, I've gotten used to them, there different. I really like the fact they put off less heat as well as save electricity.
Consumer Reports has been going stories about them for years and since the technology has improved so much, time to give them a try.
Well, the instructions (distructions, as I say) for these lights say to not use them in enclosed fixtures. Most of the ceiling fixtures in my house are the standard 4 or 5 inch enclosed globes, (8) by quick count. Can I or can't I, or do I have to plan for the replacement of all the globes. I was thinking the CFL bulb puts off less heat than a standard bulb it should be ok. Does the bulb need to breath so its own heat build up doesn't hurt it.
Oh, to get back on topic :) my woodshop garage has (7) 4 foot double shop lights.
Enjoy, Roy
>> Compact lamps are life rated at 3 hrs per start
I don't think everyone understands what the catalog from which this statement is drawn means. Lamps aren't "rated" 3 hours per start. The rated average life published in the catalog is the life of the lamp if it is started, left on for 3 hours, then turned off, and this cycle is repeated over and over till the lamp fails. It is meant to simulate typical use. If a lamp is turned on once and never turned off it will last much longer than the rated life. But, to provide a life rating that is actually closer to real life they test lamps under a cycle of on/off.
It does not mean you loose 3 hours of life every time you start the lamp.
The actual statement in the GE catalog is: "The rated average life (hours) shown is the median life when lamps are operated for 3 hours per start under controlled conditions on a 60 Hz electromagnetic ballast which meets ANSI Standards C-78 and C-82.1. . . . "
Someone else mentioned flicker. Some people are more sensitive to flicker than others. It can be eliminated by using electronic ballasts instead of the cheaper electromagnetic ballasts. Around moving machinery it is advisable to eliminate flicker. If lights flicker, it's possible for machinery to appear stopped when it is in fact moving if it happens to be spinning at just the right speed for a strobe effect to occur.
Thanks, that makes more sense, that they rate them w/ 3 hour intervals of use.
I guess flicker doesn't bother me much. Now, the hum sometimes does. Though I tune it out after a minute or two. Isn't hum more common w/ the magnetic ballasts?
I don't know if electronic ballasts are inherently quieter, however, ballasts have a sound rating. So you can look at the ratings in the catalog at your electrical supplier.
I'm going to have to remember that. I'd have never guessed that there were sound ratings for flourescent lights published anywhere. Thanks for the info.
I just hope the ones I have aren't too noisy. I have 8-10 double tube 4' ers sitting on a shelf. They all work, some were free, and some cost a couple dollars. Magnetic ballasts I think. Gonna go out in my shop/garage one of these days.
A little hum out there is fine, but I'd kind of like to have some quieter lights in the kitchen. Maybe some new ballasts are in order.
Thanks for the info.