Gas Company letter listing violations
I had an HO call me yesterday. Lived in their home 16yrs. Gas company goes into basement and performs an ad hoc inspection. HO receives a letter from Gas Company citing violations. Basically it looks as if they’re forcing the HO to come up to current code on some things.
Among the things the letter states it says “Insufficient Air for Combustion” and stated that it puts the HO at risk of CO poisoning. It also said “Missing Sediment Trap” and told the HO they have 15 days to have one installed as well as to fix the air problem.
The HO knows no idea what they’re talking about, me either. What is a Sediment trap on a gas service? I heard of a drip leg that’s it and installed plenty of those. And any idea on the Insufficient Air issue is? How can he be there 16yrs and all of a sudden be told he’s in violation? He has a Gas water heater, that’s it and a new Chimney liner (SS) installed 2yrs ago and a new vent hood and ducting for the Water heater.
Replies
looks like it is a drip tee or leg.
http://www.duke-energy.com/pdfs/SectionK.pdf
Go to page 19 on the PDF
Edited 3/16/2007 10:15 am ET by bobo66
Yeah it sure does look the same. Thanks, just what I needed.If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
>>And any idea on the Insufficient Air issue is? Insufficient combustion air can lead to serious CO poisoning problems in 2 ways. First (and the lesser, in my opinion) - as the appliance operates it lowers the available oxygen and carbon monoxide production in the flue gases increases.Second: as the flue gases exit from the combustion zone, the air pressure in the zone can be reduced. As the pressure is reduced, the flue gases don't vent as efficiently, and may soon stop venting sufficiently to adequately clear combustion gases from the flame area, and cause the CO levels to skyrocket.At the same time the CO levels are shooting up, because of the reduced air pressure, the appliance might start spilling those flue gases into the house.This is not theory - I have tested a number of houses where this has happened.Why hasn't it happened yet, after 16 years?First, it may have - Low level, undetected CO exposure can cause serious long term health effects. Medical experts tell us that most cases of CO poisoning go undetected, and yet serious harm can occur."Just because they aren't dead doesn't mean they don't have a CO problem."And stepping outside for a breath of air doesn't fix harm already done by exposureAnd the more exposure the more sensitive a person is to subsequent exposure.Finally: weather conditions and changes in the local environment (a new house being built next door, a tree growing, a tree being cut down) can al cause a previously properly venting appliance to stop venting adquately>>How can he be there 16yrs and all of a sudden be told he's in violation? A violation is a violation.My expertise:Trained and certified as a Carbon Monoxide Safety Analyst and Combustion Analyst by the National Comfort Institute, as a CO Analyst by the Building Performance Institute, and trained in combustion analysis by Bacharach, the leading manufacturer of CO and combustion testing equipment.Plus hundreds of in feld tests performed.
With my mouth I will give great thanks to the Lord; I will praise Him in the midst of the throng. For He stands at the right hand of the needy, to save them from those who would condemn them to death.
- Psalms 109:30-31
rjw: I have to agree with your post, the only thing that I would change is the hook-up 16 years ago was probably legal at that time. Luck.
Well, an outside makeup air supply was required when our house was built in 1976. Of course, this is Minnesota.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
The problem with codes is that they are regional, they may vary by the city, county, or state, info. only, have a good one."if all else fails, read the directions"
>>The problem with codes is that they are regional, In most cases, code n these issues points to the GAMA tables.Of course, the GAMA tables say tables usually, but don't always work - my paraphrase) and that the guy who does the install is responsible for proper operation and venting.And, of course, most HVAC guys don't know that.
With my mouth I will give great thanks to the Lord; I will praise Him in the midst of the throng. For He stands at the right hand of the needy, to save them from those who would condemn them to death.
- Psalms 109:30-31
What motivation would gas company have to tell their customer the installation was not safe. The only one is keeping their customer alive & well. Fix it right!!!!
"What motivation would gas company have to tell their customer the installation was not safe."
Liability.
Do you remember the house that blew up near here last year? The first one lawsuit was filed against the utility. Not because they had done anything wrong - Just because they have the deepest pockets.
The utility might be thinking it will look good in court in cases like this to be able to say that they do safety spot checks.
He who laughs last has the best lawyer.
jimcco: Getting confused, what about my reply to another post you don't agree with?................................
"If all else fails, read the directions"
I gather that there's lots of variation in the code requirements for combustion air supply -- some codes just require the unit to be in a room of so many cubic feet, some require vents through the door or wall to the remainder of the house, some require an air supply from outside. In general the outside air supply is best and should trump anything else.
Keep in mind that a fireplace, range hood, or bathroom fan can create a vacuum in the house. If the house is "tight" (more common the farther north you go), then this can cause the water heater or furnace flue to run backwards, drawing air down it. Obviously, this creates problems.
Even without some other device creating a vacuum, a water heater or furnace in a very tightly enclosed room can create a vacuum, preventing proper combustion and flue draw.
One problem that has occurred from time to time is that a house that was fairly "loose" originally is "tightened up" over time, creating a bad situation. For this reason it makes sense for preexisting poor practices to not be "grandfathered".
PS: The drip leg has been a requirement forever, AFAIK. It was probably a red flag to the inspector that the installation was not professional.
Like Bob said - The "Insufficient Air for Combustion" means makeup air.
An air-to-air heat exchanger would take care of it. But it would be expensive, and they might not need it otherwise.
Changing the heater to a power vent model might also work. But again, that may be beyond what they want to do.
I've heard of installing a piece of 4" PVC into the supply duct of an HVAC system so allow for supply air. But whether that would work or not would best be left up to someone who knows more about it than I do.
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BTW - The letter said that had 15 days to correct the problems. What happens after 15 days?
Up here in Michigan they require a source of fresh air to be allowed in from outside. It raises a lot of questions from homeowners when they spend so much money on insulation sealing up gaps all over a new house only to have the mechanical contractor come in and drill a 4 inch hole through and vent it in the basement for the furnace.
4"?
I'm sure sure that is adequate.
Here in Colorado, they expect the incoming makeup air to be twice the outgoing flue. So's if you have one 6" flue venting your gas appliances, you need two 6" incoming vents - one at a high point in the room another at about 12 - 18" off the floor.
Air to air won't do it. They are supposed to be for ventilation only. Neither will a pipe into the duct work. Dedicated combustion air vent is required.
>>I've heard of installing a piece of 4" PVC into the supply duct of an HVAC system so allow for supply airOr just a simple register in the supply (NOT the return) in the confined space
With my mouth I will give great thanks to the Lord; I will praise Him in the midst of the throng. For He stands at the right hand of the needy, to save them from those who would condemn them to death.
- Psalms 109:30-31
>>Or just a simple register in the supply (NOT the return) in the confined spaceIn the counties I work in, combustion air must be obtained from outside the home so we can't use the extra supply trick.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Yo Willy
Up here in Canada ( I shouldn,t really say that rather (in my part of Canada) we did work for the local gas supplier and every once in a while we would do random checks on houses. Almost in every case we found violations and the customers had to bring up to code. We had a really old code book that someone had and in most cases the violations we found were violations back then. Apparently the gas company is responsible in the way that (at least up here) municipal buildings inspectors could if they wanted, go into any house and check for code violations.
I was in a house of a friend which was less than a year old and the furnace had been nicely drywalled (with tiny access) so you couldnèt see it. It was a high efficiency gas furnace but it was only a ONE PIPE system and needed air from the house for proper combustion. When I mentioned it to my friend that it was a problem he really didnèt believe me because after all it was a new house and inspected. Some logic!
roger
didnиtwhat is that fifth letter and how did you do it
Funny you should mention that or even notice it for that matter.
A few days ago my wife and I noticed that when ever we typed words like wouldn't or couldn't or anything with a ' in it, it would type what you saw. There were all sorts of other things that it would do . My wife figured it out that the computer was typing some french words for some unknown reason by putting what is called an accent over the e and all sorts of other stuff. Strange huh! We have had lots of problems lately and the problem is solved. Not sure how we got it and not sure how we got rid of it.
roger
In Windows XP,
Start, control panel, regional and language options, languages tab:
Select [Details...] in the "Text services and input languages" section
Select "English (United States) - US" for the standard north american keyboard in the "Default input language" section.
The long way around to say that the keyboard language decided to change...
Tried all that (or the wife did) and only eastern Europe showed up. England or North America didn't show up and yet we could type pretty well in English. Mind you there were some sites we couldn't get into because of the language problem This situation only lasted for a couple of days. The wife just explained what she did but it made no sense to me and she admits that she really didn't know what she was doing but it worked.
roger
Looks like one of dem Ruskies to me.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
It's a Russian letter that sounds like "ee" or "y".Rebeccah
This gives a summary of combustion air requirements and how to get it.
http://www.codecheck.com/pg21_22mechanical.html
Also check on the age of the furnace.
Might be worth looking a new hi eff unit that brings in combustion air in a separate plastic pipe.
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Thanks, Bill, I need to go out to that site more often. It'l sure help a lot.If at first you don't succeed, try using a hammer next time...everything needs some extra persuasion from time to time. -ME
When I got my new furnace about 3 years ago (gas furnace) I had to install a fresh air vent. Consisted of a 4" pipe from the out side to about 1 foot from the floor near the furnace.
Also had to line the chimney as it was "old" (30 years).
The sediment trap was already there from the previous furnace.
When I got my new gas furnace I took out the fresh air vent. Maybe this summer I'll add the vent into the cold air return from outside.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
As I understand it, The fresh air is for combustion and therefore putting it into the cold air return is not good enough.
The closer you get it to the bottom of the furnace the better."No doubt exists that all women are crazy; it's only a question of degree." - W.C. Fields
Yeah, but I have a closed combustion condensing unit. Don't need combustion air.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
>>When I got my new gas furnace I took out the fresh air vent. Maybe this summer I'll add the vent into the cold air return from outside.Vent into the return
shouldshouldn't affect the combustion air supply one way or the other.[Edited after brainfart exposed to the world{G}]
With my mouth I will give great thanks to the Lord; I will praise Him in the midst of the throng. For He stands at the right hand of the needy, to save them from those who would condemn them to death.
- Psalms 109:30-31
Edited 3/17/2007 2:58 pm ET by rjw
> Vent into the return should affect the combustion air supply one way or the other.Shouldn't, on a sealed combustion system. At least as of about 10 years ago, the code here was a relatively small duct from outside into the return duct, when there were no combustion appliances. Assures alight positive pressure in the house. Trick is doing this with an intake site that's sufficiently removed from the furnace vents and other potential problems.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Oppps, .... before posting venting ideas, proof-reading is critical!
That should have been "shouldn't"
With my mouth I will give great thanks to the Lord; I will praise Him in the midst of the throng. For He stands at the right hand of the needy, to save them from those who would condemn them to death.
- Psalms 109:30-31
I'm right curious as to which code you refer to....I have to say that I have never seen that done.....
I'd be curious to here the HVAC pros take on it...
(A pro who actually knows and uses modern stuff...90% furnaces, radient, tankless, etc...)
This is just what I've seen in recent construction. I'm assuming the vent wouldn't be installed (significant extra work) if code didn't require it.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Instruct the homeowner to cancel the gas service and switch over to electric. That'd get the gas company buggered. Since when does a gas company have a right to say anything inside private property? And worse yet, what ninkompoop would let them into their home?
I was wondering the same thing. I figured the gas company must offer the inspection as a service and the "violations" are really just non-binding suggestions. I can't imagine that they can enforce codes within your home under threat of turning off the gas.
As I understand it they have code compliance authority over anything having to do with the gas service... and they have you by the gas meter :)
To Nuke and Do Can
Up here in my part of Canada they have all the right and they will turn the gas off in the blink of an eye. LOcal building inpectors also have the right. How do you think buildings are posted as "condemned" if they couldn't get in. I believe fire inspectors also have the right. Having said all this, they must notify the owners in advance.
You would be surprised if you read all the fine print you passed over when signing forms. A few years ago I read the fine print when I opened a bank account and they have the right NOT to give you your money when demanded. I think they have up to around 30 days and even that was conditional. Read the forms you signed when signing up for telephone, electricity and gas. And I mean really read them.
roger
If I remember right, basic international code for outdoor combustion air is 1 square inch of free area for each 1,000 BTU, with 100 square inches as a minimum. Remember that a 10"x10" grille does not have 100 square inches of free area.
There is also a cubic foot minimum, but that escapes me now.
Local municipal codes may supercede the above.
There is a company that offers a barometric relief damper called the Skuttle. It comes up on Google. This damper opens when the house is under a negative pressure compared to the outdoors. A fancier solution is a motorized damper that opens when the furnace is on.
If an outdoor combustion air intake is not installed, combustion air is still eventually drawn in from the outdoors. You will feel that as drafts around windows and doors. Carbon monoxide problems may also occur.
Installing a 2 pipe 90% efficient furnace and omitting the intake pipe makes no sense, either.
Installing a "fresh air intake" -even a single 4" pipe- into the return ductwork will overload the residential systems during periods of extreme cold or heat and humidity. The typical residential system is not designed to deal with a significant percentage of outdoor makeup air. That is what ERV's and HRV's are for.
> Installing a 2 pipe 90% efficient furnace and omitting the intake pipe makes no sense, either. Why?
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
(1) The intake pipe eliminates combustion air problems if it is used.
(2) If the intake pipe is not used, then the combustion air is coming from your home- unless you have an additional outdoor air intake piped into the furnace room. You have paid to heat the air within your home, so why send it up the chimney as combustion air for the furnace? The heated air escaping up the chimney is replaced with cold, unheated air from outdoors.
Check for drafts around windows and outlets on exterior walls with and without the furnace on. Then it will make sense.
Do the same thing while your dryer is on, too....
Each cubic foot of natural gas takes about 13 cubic feet of air for combustion. There are about 1000 btu's in each cubic foot of gas..... So, your 100,000 btu furnace will consume about 1300 cubic feet of air producing those 100,000 btu's of heat. That 1300 cubic feet of air will come from the combustion air intake, or it will make its presence known as drafts around your windows and doors while the furnace uses 1300 cubic feet of air that you already paid to heat- sent up the chimney.
Same thing applies to all elevations above sea level, propane or oil, just different ratios of fuel to air needed for combustion.
That's why it makes no sense to pay the premium for a 90% furnace and then skimp on the installation. That's also why combustion air intakes should be used on fuel burning appliances less than 90% efficient.
ERV's are a way to bring in fresh outdoor air that has been tempered because homes are sealed up tight to elimate those drafts that provided a healthy air exchange. Solve one problem, create another...
OK, I misunderstood what you meant by "Installing a 2 pipe 90% efficient furnace and omitting the intake pipe makes no sense, either." You mean that if you install a "2 pipe" system but don't bother to connect the intake pipe to an outside source, that's stupid. I'd agree. Compared to the rest of the unit, the cost of the intake pipe and its intallation is negligible and it's just plain dumb to omit it.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
I have seen plenty of installations omitting the outdoor intake pipe.
I know of a whole subdivision where checking the 90% furnace upgrade box (and then getting raped by the builder on the upcharge for a cheap builders model furnace) results in a single pipe system.
>>I have seen plenty of installations omitting the outdoor intake pipe.FWIW: I have looked at a number of installation manuals which make the exterior combustion air supply optional.A few specify the supply and discharge have to be in the same "pressure zone" - whatever that is.(E.g., I called out one such furnace where the air supply was near grade and the flue exited through the roof - but I called it out for "further expert evaluation" - let the HVAC guys figure out whether they were in the same "zone" <G>
With my mouth I will give great thanks to the Lord; I will praise Him in the midst of the throng. For He stands at the right hand of the needy, to save them from those who would condemn them to death.
- Psalms 109:30-31
Yes, the outdoor combustion air is optional on most new equipment. The intake/exhaust/pressure switches are set up differently than they used to be on some equipment.
Manufacturers are under pressure from contractors to make the installs easier (cheaper). Until recently, American Standard furnaces were not supposed to be installed without an intake pipe to the outdoors. Using the furnace for "temporary" construction heat used to be forbidden in the instructions, but now some manufacturers will allow it- provided that their specifications are met (just another way to screw the homeowners out of several years of life on their equipment and allow the builders to fill the ducting with drywall dust).
"Same pressure zone" usually means that the intake and exhaust must be within 9" of each other. One out the side and the other out the roof is not the same pressure zone.
The optional outdoor piped combustion air doesn't change the fact that the furnace still needs combustion air from somewhere.
""Same pressure zone" usually means that the intake and exhaust must be within 9" of each other. One out the side and the other out the roof is not the same pressure zone."Darn, that might cause me a problem.I have a utility closet with 2 furances and a water heater. One updraft for the 2nd floor and down draft (under slab ducts) for the first.They is outdoor combustion air brought in. The ordingal idea was that the area would be sealed. But it was not and it allows in lots of cold air.I am wanting to replace the WH with a direct vent. And sealed combustion air for the furnace(s). Between windows and vents for the 3 pieces of equipment I and not sure if they can all be fitted into the the wall at the end of of the utility space. But I could run some out the other wall (about 10 ft). But that is where the AC is. So I was thing about puting intakes on that wall and discharges on the other.I guess I could run them through the chase for the current flue and out the roof (at leas one). But I was hopeing to reclaim that space.Other issues are that the 2nd floor unit is way oversized and the 1st floor unit is humoungously oversized. And I only have AC on the 2nd floor. That works well, but for resale I might change it.And I am thinking maybe hp pump with resistive backup for the 1st floor and dual fuel for the 2nd. Lots of trade offs and I need a load analysis first..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
You really need to look at the installation instructions for your equipment. Maybe what you want to do is allowed. Maybe not. Might be less effort to seal up that room, preventing the combustion air leaks, and use those restrictors that usually come with furnaces for eliminating the outdoor air intake pipe.
I suppose you know that the direct vent water heater still needs combustion air.
Load calc stuff can be had here for little money: http://www.havc-calc.com
Certainly a man of your means and accomplishments would go for a GSHP.
"Certainly a man of your means and accomplishments would go for a GSHP."In a different time an place I would.When I built the house in 79 I had REAL PROBLEMS with HVAC.I had 2 issues. I must have talked to 2 dozen different HVAC contractors.One of my questions was about ground source heat pumps. And I could not find anyone in this area that knew about them.The closes I got from anyone know anything about them was my cabinet name. He had a place down at the lake of the Ozarks and literally threw the compressor coil into the lake. He might have been AC only.A few of the local HVAC contractors "heard of it", but didn't even know what it was.Actually I wanted to circulte water from the lake that I live on, but it is shallow near me and would have to put the coils way out.And acess and space is very limited and EXPEN$IVE to drill veritcal holes.The other issue that that the house is partial ground contact. The back half of the house is 4ft under ground. But the front is all at ground level and lots of glass.The first floor is LR, DR, kitchen, and utility space. The 2nd floor bedrooms.All of the contracts said that the would do so and so for the 2nd floor and, by the way, stick a couple of vents in the ceiling for the "basement".No disussion could convince that it was not a basement, but the main floor and prim living space and needs full treatement.But I finally found some one that would do it, but ended up with too large a furnace..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
My first exposure to a "GSHP" involved the contractor simply hooking up a commercial water source heat pump to a pump and dump system. The type that is hooked up to a commercial chiller and/or boiler.
Took me 14 years, thousands in repair costs, and finally an electric company engineer telling me about the ruse.
>>So I was thing about puting intakes on that wall and discharges on the other.That strikes me as probably "OK" but depending on the air pressure variables as wind blows around the house and causes eddies and various pressure spots.The "force" of a draft inducer on a 90+ blowing the flue gases out isn't very strong (typically 0.01 to 0.03 inwc), and could easily be overcome by a high pressure spot when th wind blows certain ways - maybe.
With my mouth I will give great thanks to the Lord; I will praise Him in the midst of the throng. For He stands at the right hand of the needy, to save them from those who would condemn them to death.
- Psalms 109:30-31
> "Same pressure zone" usually means that the intake and exhaust must be within 9" of each other. One out the side and the other out the roof is not the same pressure zone.This makes placement a little tricky since, for my Carrier at least, the intake and exhaust must be at least three feet apart.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Different brands, different specs. :)
That's why it is good to RTFM :)
What model? NEVER seen a Carrier yet (always a first) that wanted 36" seperation.
They do want it on the third furnace.
Well, I guess it depends on which chart you look at. On closer inspection (of the manual for 58MVB) it appears that I should be looking at figure 43, which requires 12 inch separation for side-mount vents, except, curiously, it also allows concentric vents.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Thanks - good info.I'm pretty sure Goodman (maybe some other co still restricts installation during construction because of the volatile and "active" outgases during construction which which can corrode/damage the exchanger.The sawdust and drywall dust in the ducts (and blower bearings) is just an extra!
With my mouth I will give great thanks to the Lord; I will praise Him in the midst of the throng. For He stands at the right hand of the needy, to save them from those who would condemn them to death.
- Psalms 109:30-31
The IMC defines a "confined space" as one that contains less than 50 cubic feet for each 1000 btuh of input, in regards to determining if additional combustion air is required.
In areas that are not confined spaces, no combustion air beyond that which is available from the immediate space, is required. In a confined space there are several numbers to know: 1 sq.in/1000 btuh for gravity fed CA (min of 100 sq.in.) from adjacent, interior spaces, with two separate openings required, one within a foot of the ceiling an done within a foot of the floor; for direct openings from the space to the outside - 1sq.in. per 4000 btuh input; and for forced combustion air supply, 1cfm/2400 btuh. There are some more figures for ducted horizontal and vertical connections.
Sealed combustion appliances, per the IMC, are only to be installed per the manufacturer's instructions.
Edited 3/19/2007 2:13 pm by Tim
Find out from your local Town or City Hall if the Gas Co. has the legal ability to force the HO to make these changes. Did the Gas Co. recommend that someone they know or request to do the work? I am always skeptical when whamboom there are issues that force me to shell out dough. Could be that there are some CEO's looking to fatten the wallet, and this might be a good place to try. Get a second or third opinion. If there are truly serious problems, then take care of them. But if this is just a feeble attempt to drum up business, it could be unlawfull.
"Find out from your local Town or City Hall if the Gas Co. has the legal ability to force the HO to make these changes. Find out from your local Town or City Hall if the Gas Co. has the legal ability to force the HO to make these changes. "I doubt that the town has anything to do with this or knows anything about it.And I seriously doubt that the gas co has any legal right to force them to do anthing.HOWEVER, they gas company can refuse service (ie, disconnect) any home that they don't feel is safe.For verification of that check with the state public service commission..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
>>"Insufficient Air for Combustion" and stated that it puts the HO at risk of CO poisoning.<<
What's the appliance gas appliance that they are referring to? What room is it in? Is it open to an unfinished basment or enclosed in a tight closet with solid doors?
>>It also said "Missing Sediment Trap" and told the HO they have 15 days to have one installed as well as to fix the air problem. <<
The so called "inspector" really doesn't like his job if he/she doesn't take the time to explain where and what the problem is as well as how standards have changed in the 16 years since the existing appliance was installed and first inspected, if it was ever inspected.