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We are just beginning a major remodel on a large (5500+ sq. ft.) 1840’s 3 story brick farmhouse. Home is currently heated by an oil-guzzling furnace that is vented out one of the main chimneys. Based on fact that there is a natural gas main in street in front, the consulting mechanical engineer spec’d a two furnace, directly vented, gas fired system for the replacement system. This would allow the reclamation of the chimney and restoration of the bricked up fireplace. Now the gas co. says we can’t tie in- line is a transmission line, not a service line. Mech engineer says no prob, just use the same system he designed, but fire it with propane. Is this the way to go? How do fuel costs stack up? Can a propane tank be hidden or camouflaged? Or is there another efficient, cost effective option to consider which can be direct vented?
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Hard to conceal a 300 gallon tank, but it can be away from the building. Aside from that, there's nothing wrong with propane.
fv
*See HP annd gas comparison chart, detail on 2nd post to Casey T question June 13th. Went to energy seminar last month, prognosis is for retail nat. gas to stabilize at somewhere near $1 therm. HP may be cheaper where you live.
*Unfortunately no one here can give you good answers to your questions; unless they live in your area. You know the questions. So ask them of the fuel and furnace people in your area. When you get the answers you can make a decision on oil vs gas vs propane etc.
*you can put an above ground bulk tank away from the house and landscape it...price and btu comparisons .. get from your propane and gas dealers....given the choice between oil & propane.. i prefer propane.. heating, A/C, clothes drying.. & cooking...add those to the mix when considering your total utility costs...
*There is a propane company sending mailings to area builders showcasing a propane tank that is buried.The only thing I know about them is what was on the flyer.My big gripe with propane is here, you only lease/rent the tank and can only purchase from them.If I get annoyed with a supplier, I can call them to remove their tank and get someone else's brought in.A buried tank would make that a pain.Terry
*Chris, Make sure you and the gas company understand each other, or that you have talked to the right people at the company. Where I live, they allow you to tap into a main transmission line once a year (when they have a special crew in the area that does this type of work). I know lots of people that have taps into very large lines. This may not be allowed in your area, but it's worth checking on.
*Back in NJ, the propane companies would supply a 1000 gal. tank for burial(and a 40 gal. water heater) for free if you signed a 5 year contract to buy gas from them. Or, you could buy the tank outright, or pay a pro-rated fee at any time during the 5 years. Pretty much the same deal with the suppliers in CT, but here I only needed a 100 gal. tank, so I went and bought it for a couple hundred. Seems to me that the 1000 gal tanks would have cost around $1500, had I bought them. All of that said, in my experience, propane is second only to electricity as being an expensive source of heat. I'll never go that route again, as long as fuel oil is available.Andy
*Thanks to all for replies, opinions, and ideas. The question of cost of propane vs other fuels probably didn't belong here- as several said, I can get that from a few phone calls. What I am really trying to figure out is the best system that will work efficiently and allow for the interior restoration work I hope to accomplish (uncovering the bricked up fireplace). Since this is a large, historic structure, I want to do it right- within reason- and end up with both a restored interior as well as exterior. Can I have both?
*Natural gas is great if you can get it (0.38/therm for me :-). ) And gas companies are often VERY inexpensive about extending their lines to new customers. It only cost me $1/foot to have them trench the service to my house (the first 100 feet were free). Wish I could get that price on all trenching! So, as others said, ask around and don't give up easily. But it sure sounds like the ME biffed it. He should have checked before preceeding.When using propane, I prefer my own tank. I've had sites that went through 500 to 1,000 gallons per week and it was important to be able to shop around on price.Fuel oil is often cheaper than propane but ask locally. Ask not only what it is today, but ask user s and supplier how they have related historically. Consider a tank large enough to buy in the summer and last through the winter. That can save you 20% or more. But as Mike pointed out, clothes dryers and cooktops can take propane but not fuel oil. That is an additional savings for propane (because otherwise you have to use electric) and a convenience. The clothes dry in 50 minutes instead of 2 hours.Andy quotes a tank cost of $1.50/gallon and that sounds really good. I figure unpressurized tanks run about $1/gallon but that pressurized ones are twice that. Be really careful about any used tanks. Confirm with the suppliers what specs and inspections they require before they'll fill the tank. An old tank may not meet current requirements.I don't see any problem going with direct-vent propane furnaces if you can't get NG. But keep trying for that NG.Paying $1.10/day at -25F to heat my house, -David
*From your last post, Chris, what you have is more an architectural and engineering problem than figuring out fuel costs.So, if it were me I would figure out which heating method, Hot Water, Forced Air, etc would work best given space for the mechanicals. THEN I would figure out what fuel I would use for the system. Most likely you are going to end up with oil, but definitely check prices first.
*Chris -Just to toss in my 2 cents. Take a look at the overall cost and convenience of a high efficiency heatpump to supplement your fossil fuel (natural gas, oil, or propane) selection. The benefits of such a system are substantial . I worked in a technical position at the @#%&! gas company for over 30 years and was constantly trying to beat the overall economics of such a system (the "add-on" electric heatpump).Not only do you get summer AC, but such a system switches automatically in the heating mode from the heatpump to the fossil fuel furnace when outdoor temperatures fall below 30 deg F. (This is approximately the temperature where electric HPs have higher heating costs than a fossil fuel furnace.) Much higher heating efficiency are achieved with the HP above 30 deg F instead of the "off/on-part load" efficiency of the furnace. The argument of cold drafty HP operation is also a moot point for this type of system since the furnace is used exclusively when the outside temperature falls below 30 F. Hope you can get the natural gas service - if available it will be the cheapest and most trouble free fossil fuel you can find. My home heating system uses a 28 year old natural gas Bryant furnace that has been, for the last eight years, assisted by a high efficiency Bryant HP. No worries and even lower costs than before the HP was installed.The wife wanted AC and our ancient Arkla gas absorption AC was slowly dying about the time I left the @#%&! gas company. Talk to your engineer and see if he can get some comparative heating figures from the electric co about add-on heat pump pricing and operating costs - unless you are a California Hostage you should make out well.
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We are just beginning a major remodel on a large (5500+ sq. ft.) 1840's 3 story brick farmhouse. Home is currently heated by an oil-guzzling furnace that is vented out one of the main chimneys. Based on fact that there is a natural gas main in street in front, the consulting mechanical engineer spec'd a two furnace, directly vented, gas fired system for the replacement system. This would allow the reclamation of the chimney and restoration of the bricked up fireplace. Now the gas co. says we can't tie in- line is a transmission line, not a service line. Mech engineer says no prob, just use the same system he designed, but fire it with propane. Is this the way to go? How do fuel costs stack up? Can a propane tank be hidden or camouflaged? Or is there another efficient, cost effective option to consider which can be direct vented?