Hi!
Hopefully someone can help me with a flooring problem. We are renovating a 130 year old Victorian home. In order to maintain the historic nature of the house, we’ve decided to use reclaimed maple flooring on the main floor. It is old growth maple, one inch thick that was salvaged from an old light manufacturing factory. However, many of the pieces have light machine oil either coating it or somewhat soaked into it. We are worried that the varathane may not stick to it. Is there any way of getting this oil out? Would soaking it in varsol or some other liquid to cut the oil work? We plan to plane the pieces before installation. Any information would be helpful.
Thanks
Replies
You poor thing. You just opened Pandora's box- again...
Heaven help us.
Daust.
I'm guessing here so I could be off a bit.. I'd suggest taking a highly volatile liquid like acetone to it and flood some on.. Acetone is very flammable so be careful and definitely do it when all windows are open and a nice breeze is blowing through.
Then of course use shellac <grin>
Well, since no one else wants to step up to the plate...
Allow me to be the first to recommend shellac.
That's right, guys, shellac. And it's me that is suggesting it.
When you have a contaminate like that oil in the wood, you need a sealer to act as a barrier to keep it from leeching out. Shellac is well known as the universal sealer. I've used it over Watco danish oil to allow an incompatible (the oil) finish to bond to either a poly or lacquer.
In your case, be sure to use a DE-waxed shellac as the regular Zinnser or other at the big boxes will have wax in it.
http://www.zinsser.com/product_detail.asp?ProductId=31
And the technical data sheet:
http://zinssercompanyinc.com/pdf/TDB/be_shllac.pdf
Your old growth maple should offer the hardness necessary to provide a good substrate.
Then, after the shellac-ing, go for a good compatible poly top coat to offer much better scratch and wear resistance.
I guess I spent too much time researching to actually be the first...
Funny.
I'm thinking the opposite. I'd go with thinned "oils" on the oily wood. Added Japan drier and say 50/50 mix of varnish and thinner. The reason I say that is I think the shellac won't really bond to the "light machine oil" in the Maple. And LMO, won't oxidixe or cure..ever, by itself. BUT, adding to it with a compatible mix that WILL oxidize or hardn by evaporation..will allow it to be better amalgamated into one finish ( penetrated) and allow a film that can then be shellaked or top coated with poly.
I worked in a shop that had old maple floors, it was a sewing factory for WW2 uniforms back in the day, and the floor was nothing BUT sewing mach. oil. Man, get some sawdust on it and you could skate..it was like ice. That floor is probably STILL exuding oil to this day.
It just so happens that it was a guitar shop, run by a well known finisher ( and past author / editor of FWW mag.) who ALSO happened to be one of the innovators of Hydrocoat waterbased wood finishes, I was his employee. God's honest truth, if you spilled Zinnsers seal-coat , or any of our products ( wb lacs, and poly-ies, and stains), it would wipe right up..allow a varnish to cure, it stayed pretty well stuck..I know this because we conducted finishing workshops on Sat. mornings..selling HVLP systems and Hydrocoat products, and as an example we "sampled" and compared all available finishes, to show the benefits of Hydrocaot over the others.
One of my favorite displays was take jar lid, add HC "PolyShield" and let it dry to a disk like film, about a 1/16" in. thick. Place it in a freezer for an hour and take it out and bend it, strtch it, try to tear it...THEN pop it in the microwave for 30 secs, and then try the same..about indestructible stuff.
BTW all of those products that were considered "Polys" were to to be applied on RAW wood, no sanding sealer needed or wanted.
Allof those products are available under Hood Finishng products..we dealt with Erik Kasner in Freehold NJ , IIRC.
Michael Dresner is now out of that bizness I do believe and is enjoying retirement in Wa. state. he still has a web presence I think, and is hawking for ZAR products..a very talented and professional finisher..we made 5-6 K$ Bass Guitars, but they got Cat-Lac due to the nature of the instrument.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
You gonna play that thing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32Ln-SpJsy0
I will happily defer to Sphere's opinion. Honestly, he knows far more about the subject than I.
Thanks, Sphere for chipping in and correcting me.
I wasn't trying to correct you as much as offer a differing take on it, but I'll take the handshake.
I HAVE worked extensivly with the inception stages of the products in that line, and feel faily confidant that I have learned enough to not FU anything "I" am working with, but when it comes to telling others "My way or the hi-way" it just ain't gonna happen..there has been too many leaps and bounds in the past decade, to assume anything. These new alum.oxide finishes are damm near bulletproof.
As I said in the other thread, I like shellac as much as anyone, but it has it's own issues.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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You gonna play that thing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32Ln-SpJsy0
Maple is fairly resistant to soaking stuff like that in, but when it has had a hundred years worth of soakum, this job of yours is as much an experiment as anything.
So I recommend that you do some back closet testing first before doing the whole floor.
My guess is that planing an eighth inch off the top will reduce your oil stains by 70-80%, but like I say, a hundred years is a lot of seepage..
For lighter oil when it is fresh wiping/rubbing with acetone will take a glaze off but dog-gone it all, a hundred years worth of setting up and who knows....
sphere makes sense and has some experience with this.
What you are dealing with is getting a good bond.
there are chemical bonds and mechanical bonds. Either the new finish will bond chemically or it will not. Only some testing will tell.
But adding a mechanical bond will help add to a chemical bond or replace it fairly well if there is little or a weak chemical bond.
So after plane-ing and installing, you still will need to sand the top surface. I would not go any finer than about 80 grit. That will still look good but will leave microscopic grooves in the maple that the finish can get a grip on, like a mountain climber locking his fist into a crevice when th e other option is trying to dig into slick ice.
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Oiled wood can be hard for planer rollers to get a grip on..I'd not stand behind it..I had a cutting board recently reglued come back out..it was shorter than the width of the knives..say 20" in a 24" planer, it got skeejawed and came back at me in splinters.
All else you said is right on, I was getting to get to mechanical bond when my fone rang ( Moving ma into a care facility, I know you the pain).Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
You gonna play that thing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32Ln-SpJsy0
good thought on the feed rollers. The bigger machines use metal serrated toothed feed rollers that would get a grip on the way in. That last eight inches pulling out on the rubber one could be scary though.
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If I was a drinking man, that last sentance would be down right scary. LOLSpheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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You gonna play that thing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32Ln-SpJsy0
Sorry 'bout the wording there. That bossHog has been a bad influence on me lately with his flirtatious ways. At least I refrained from repeating how well oiled up the wood is.
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Stop it! My face hurts from laffin..Boss was flirtin with ya? Man, dem farmers need some calves..or somthing.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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You gonna play that thing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32Ln-SpJsy0
Planing it before installation is a good idea. I'd follow that with a bench applied coat of 50% sanding sealer and 50% lacquer thinner and let it dry well before installation. Getting a first seal on it will let you know how the eventual color will turn out so you can cull the stripy and discolored stuff into the closets and under the rugs if you dare. The lacquer thinner will let the sealer penetrate into the wood alongside of the oily residue (which hopefully will be pulled up by the planer anyway.)
Lacquer thinner is bad for the ozone layer and not not not a green building recommended best practice but very effective. Say 100 Hail Greenies, drink three bottles of good Kentucky bourbon and vow never to drink beer from an aluminum can to compensate for this sin.
m
------------------
"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
I NEVER EVER mix good whiskey with lacquer thinner.maybe a drop of water now and then...
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Thanks to everyone for your information. We'd really like to use this flooring since the grain is just amazing. New maple flooring seems to have a fairly loose grain. This reclaimed maple has such a tight grain that you can barely see the separations between the growth lines. And the colour is beautiful. We soaked a very small piece in some varsol, let it dry and varathaned it. It had that shimmery quality that you usually see in figured maple. Some of these pieces are over 15 feet long! There is a stamp on the back of the wood from the company that manufactured the flooring. I think it is Red Deer or Red River. I'll have to check again. If anyone else has some helpful suggestions for eliminating the oil, please post them. We will try the suggestions you've made so far. One more question: we have purchased a product called Fabulon (oil based) to finish the floor. We have already used it upstairs in the bedrooms on the pine planking we salvaged from our house when we gutted it originally (we had to keep the pine planking. One of the boards was 17" wide and 26 feet long!!!). The finish appears to be holding up quite well (it's been on for 9 years). Would this product be a good choice to finish the maple flooring?
Thanks, Angela
Fabulon is exactly what I was alluding to. I'd not fear doing the floor with it. It is an EXCELLENT product.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
You gonna play that thing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32Ln-SpJsy0
Thanks! I'm glad we can use it as we have 10 gallons of it!!! We're also thinking of doing a boarder of contrasting wood around each of the rooms we are using the maple in. Is flame cherry a good option? The maple will be stained a very light cherry finish and I thought cherry would compliment it nicely. What do you think?
Angela
daust
It's relatively easy to stain maple with dark colored woods when sanding. Cherry if unexposed to sunlite can be a pinkish color and might not stain too bad. Cherry when exposed to sunlite will darken up greatly almost turn black given enough time..
Cherry is a perfect marriage with Maple, the only wood that I like as much would be Walnut with Maple.
Even with a UV inhibiting finish, the cherry will age gracefully.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
You gonna play that thing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32Ln-SpJsy0
the varsol I'm familiar with leaves a residual film. Did yo do anythig to clean the wood afterwards? To cut that film we used Acetone or MEK. MEK leaves no film but precautions should be taken around when using it.
On our little test piece I just let the varsol dry out then wiped it with a damp cloth. The varathane seemed to stick quite well. However, obviously it didn't need to stand up to foot traffic. That may make a difference.
Also thanks for the advice on the cherry border. Many of the accents in the house will be a rich burgundy so I thought the reddish colour of the cherry might be a nice match. We have a great mill close by with an incredible variety of wood. We picked up some bird's eye maple planks for a table there that seemed to have absorbed some minerals from the soil as it has beautiful bluish streaks through it. Also, I've never seen so many varieties of figured maple, cherry, walnut etc., as well as many exotic woods like zebrawood, purpleheart, ebony.... my husband and I are like kids in a candy store!
I'm interested, just where might this Candy Store be?Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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You gonna play that thing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32Ln-SpJsy0
Just northeast of Toronto, Ontario, Canada. It's called Century Mill. Close to you? They had some very large stock as well. They had a piece of beautiful red mahogany that had to be 5" thick and 20 feet long. The birdseye planks were quite large as well. One of the three I purchased is 14 inches wide and 15 feet long. If you're ever near Toronto, it might be worth a side trip!
I wish it were closer, but Toronto is a hike from Kentucky, USA.
I had an exquiste lumber supplier in North Carolina, two actually. They are few and far between here for the exotics, and the sawmills are not that oriented to custom or selling anything much more than common fencing boards ( Horse Country here).
There is one specialty type supplier, but I never seem to have my schedule coincide with thier hours of operation, and it's an hour or so away.
Glad y'all have the candy store!Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
You gonna play that thing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32Ln-SpJsy0
Sounds beautiful.
Congratulations
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daust
Careful there, Piffin spoke without thinking I believe..
That wood you are using is reclaimed which means presumably at one time is was laid down and sanded.. that means there will be significant differances in thickness between one part and another which means since planners work off the thickness you are in for a can of worms.. nothing that can't be dealt with but you might be surprised at how thin the boards could wind up being if you attempt to flatten them all to one thickness and relay them down and then sand them flush.
The boards may remain relatively thick but the critical thickness is between the tongue and groove. The thickness above the tongue and groove is what matters. when that get's too thin the floor is junk and needs to be replaced..
I think that reusing old flooring is fraught with potential troubles.. nothing that can't usually be dealt with but it's not nearly as straightforward as it would seem..
I don't know where you live but we can still get wood that has the old growth look to it. The tree doesn't need to be 200 years old to have that look but what it has to do is grow up in a natural surrounding fighting for light like is normal in nature.. that causes close growth rings which is the sole differance between old growth and a lot of plantation grown (or woodlot) wood which is grown as quickly as possible.. (wide growth rings)
Since you already have the wood I'm sure you want to go ahead and use it but I would carefully consider finished thickness before I ran those boards through a planner..
Old growth matters not a whit with Maple, it is a diffuse porous species, where growth rate matters most is with Conifers and ring porous species.
don't even try to argue with me.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
You gonna play that thing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32Ln-SpJsy0
Sphere
I'm not going to argue the differences in old growth maple and new growth and maybe when it comes to finishes and their application there isn't a huge difference but there is a significant difference in appearance, maybe that's not what Frenchy was getting at, not really ever sure what Frenchy is getting at but ..............
Anyhow I'll let you guys get back to the finish end of things, just thought (and admittedly I was assuming) that you were saying that there wasn't any difference in appearance with old and new growth. I see it regularly with antiques and with the maple that I use in day to day work.
Doug
Anything with Frenchy gets confusing.
I'll just add, that there is a difference in old wood vs. new wood , and rate of growth can be a factor. But surely we can all agree that there are many variables, such as WHICH maple, where grown , site conditions, minerals in the soil..and other factors all play a role in the appearance and final qualities of the wood. Particularly with Maple ( hard rock or sugar), where the sapwood is the prize, and heart wood is generally considered lesser value, in which case fast growing "new'" wood is most desireable.
Too much to get into here and certanly not worth getting excited about.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
You gonna play that thing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32Ln-SpJsy0
Sphere
Both you and Doug are making valid points.We are in agreement. Sorry my comments seem so confusing.
Too much to get into here and certanly not worth getting excited about.
Especially when that damn shellac thing hasn't been put to bed!
Doug
Not to belabor the point at all but I would have a hard time believing old growth maple is superior to new growth because it grows exactly now like it used to in the old days. That is in shade under popple or a variant that grows much faster. Walking through a forest you will see them by the millions trying to keep alive. Only a few make it and they are struggling every year just like they did in the past. That's not talking yard trees and I never heard of growing maple in plantations. If you start a plantation you'd have to hand it down about six generations. LOLNo doubt some maple is better than others but that can happen when the trunks are growing ten feet from each other.As to this op's problem I'd be tempted to use Watco Danish oil as a first coat and then her fabulon. The theory being that adding an oil first would lessen the blotchiness. Not to brag but we have finished over a lot of oily floors and never had a problem except for some variation in the wet/oily look which is lessened by adding a first oil coat. One very important point. Get rid of the sawdust and/or planer chips fast. A time bomb for spontaneous combustion.
Agree with all except the last statement of combustibility, the machine oil is not a polymerizing or crossslinking resin like linseed oil or the "Tung" variants, it is gonna stay in its present state as a petro, for a real long time and it won't generate heat.
Still a good practice if in doubt at any time, but in this case, it is not a threat.
I'd STILL not plane it no matter what, I dunno about the OP's planer, but I have two, one a 2 knife head at pretty darn high CPI , and a three knife head, both with very high CPI ( cuts per inch) and Maple with its "figure" can lead to some ugly tear out, without special attn paid to grain and feeding practices, so I for see that adding even MORE sanding time to remove tearout, and sanding is not gonna be fun what with wet oil still present, it may even ruin the abrasive sheets glue bond. It ain't wet/dry paper on a sander, usually resin over resin closed coat.
With that said, I'd be inclined to lay the floor as is, and scrape it at the irregularites and call it good. Oiled maple WILL scrape like a dream.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
You gonna play that thing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32Ln-SpJsy0
Thank you again to everyone who made suggestions. Hopefully one of these techniques will work and we'll end up having a beautiful antique maple floor!
Angela
I wish you luck. And hope it works out for you.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
You gonna play that thing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32Ln-SpJsy0
Ever tried xylene to remove oils from hardwoods?
I use to use it on brazilain rosewood before finishing. It worked great, but I had to do all the de-oiling outdoors.
Exylene or Exylol is a benzene based solvent that has a stronger aliphatic solubilty than the ketones and is a little slower so it gets to work a little longer than the faster low flash ketones.
I don't think I'd want to use that stuf inside
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I worked as a lab tech. in a paint product developement lab for seven years of my youth.
Can't smell anything but bad gas, cheap perfume, and strong solvents now.
We washed equipment in buckets of reclaimed solvent that was 90% Xylol and 10% other stuff we could only guess at.
I'll probably die from the exposure I had to that stuff, or any of several hundred other things that we didn't even consider bad back then.
When I occassional use xylol now it is outside and I wear a respirator rated fo solvents.
No point in pushing my luck <g>
I once had a few weeks of exposure to weak benzene outdoors and had bad results.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I worked with a solvent called dimethyl furan for a few weeks. It is used in the formulation of epoxy resins and some coatings. Even working inside a inductrial lab hood the stuff caused blood in the urin and a lower back ack from the raging kidney poisoning.
Of course I was accussed of mishandling the product or sticking my head inside the hood. Then one of the maintenace men found the pigon roost inside the roof vent and I was exonerated. Darn thing was only pullin about 60% of its' rated cfm.
All that was before EPA and OSHA. No telling how many people living the neighboring housing project suffered from some of the stuff we vented to the atmosphere from both the lab and the production facility.
I am certinly a lot more cautious about what and how I handle just about any chemical, wet or dry, now.
I think the attitude back then was that if you don't fall over into a casket THAT DAY it was safe as could be!;)
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No, I haven't, but it probably would help as would Naptha. It's pretty nasty stuff tho' , I mean TCE would do it too, but who wants the cancer that comes with it.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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You gonna play that thing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32Ln-SpJsy0
I had plans of using my liver for other things for a few years yet.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!