I’m adding a basement bedroom and will, of course, need to add some electrical cicuits. As required, I’m planning on installing AFCI breakers in the main panel for the new circuits. Off of two of the new circuits, I would like to add and feed receptacles in the opposite sides of the walls, which are garage/ unfinished space, which require GFCI protection. Can I add a GFCI outlet on a AFCI protected circuit or am I asking for trouble? (i.e. unwanted power interruption, etc.). Should I abandon my plan and wire the GFCI and AFCI circuits independently
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These devices operate on different principles and should work effectively together. I have seen them on the same circuit work just fine. I would anticipate no problems.
My understanding is that AFCI's are an extension of the GFCI technology, and provide arc fault protection in addition to ground fault protection. IIRC, though, they take a higher level of ground fault to trip, 30 mA rather than 5 mA.
-- J.S.
You can check the squareD.com website, but I think an AFCI includes GFCI protection.
"but I think an AFCI includes GFCI protectionbut I think an AFCI includes GFCI protection"
It does have a ground fault detection feature. But it will allow much higher leaksage currents.
AND THUS IS DOES NOT PROVIDE PROTECTION FOR PEOPLE.
You need a GFCI for that.
Code requires GFCIs in bathrooms, kitchens, and outside, and I agree that they belong there. Absolutely. A GFCI circuit breaker in the breaker box is no substitute.
Arc fault circuit interupters (AFCI) are another great invention, and after seeing what was in, on, and around the walls in the house I just took apart -- original knob and tube, old armored, romex, phone, doorbell, etc., all stuffed into the same walls in an old mansion converted into apartments during WWII-- I'm considering swapping out whatever's in the next old building I work on with a new box and AFCIs, for my own protection while working on renovation of the building -- and as extra insurance against fire in any building that I buy.
Disclaimer: I'm not an electrician. I have, however, had a few brushes with A/C -- an improperly grounded old refrigerator next to a sink comes to mind -- and I am in favor of anything that keeps that from happening again.
Question: Why just bedrooms?
I asked my "master" electrician and his answer didn't make much sense (to me). Something about the arc created when pulling a plug out of a socket. That would seem, to me at least, to be a bigger problem in basements, where it could act as a source of ignition for explosive gases.Retired until my next job.
" A GFCI circuit breaker in the breaker box is no substitute."
Yes it is. Why do you say that? It has the advantage of not being exposed to moisture, which outside GFCI's do.
But he has the disadvantage of being remote. Also if you have problems with minor tripping with individual units you can isolate them rather than the whole circuit going out.
But they provide exactly the same level of safety.
"Question: Why just bedrooms? "
There is still a question of the effectiveness, but in terms of operating reliably and also in preventing fires.
There are two types of arcs, series and parallel. The AFCI can only detect one type, if I remember correctly the parallel where there are huge surges in current. But they won't detect back receptacle and plugs where the connects are loose and generate high heat and cause fires.
The also defect failing insulation in the wires by a ground fault features (much high level of current then GFCI's). But Knob and tube and older undgrounded Romex does not have a ground where the current can "leak to" so that feature is does not work in those oldere homes.
Many local jurisdristrics are delaying the requirement for AFCI's.
"A GFCI circuit breaker in the breaker box is no substitute."
Yes it is. Why do you say that? It has the advantage of not being exposed to moisture, which outside GFCI's do.
I'm not sure we have an argument here, but I'll explain.
Both GFCI receptacles and GFCI circuit breakers protect against ground faults, both are VERY sensitive and quickly interrupt power, and any variation in how quickly each acts probably has more to do with manufacturing variations than anything else. But I can put a bathroom GFCI on an existing circuit and assure protection, and as long as I don't put more than one bathroom on the the same 20A circuit, I think that the NEC (1999) allows lights, heaters, hot tub pumps and such on the same bathroom circuit. These can trip the GFCI. Not good.
To quote To quote Rex Cauldwell in Wiring a House, page 155 --
'GFCIs are very sensitive -- they will trip with a difference in current of only 0.006 amp -- so they should not be installed where life or property will be in jeapardy should the power be cut off. For example, freezers, refrigerators, sump pumps and medical equipment should not be on GFCi circuits. In addition, lights -- unless you have a reason to do so -- should never be on a GFCI-protected circuit. You may be left in the dark, which could be dangerous, if you're trying to find your way out of a wet, unlit bathroom."
He knows a lot more than I do. While I do a little of everything, I check the books wwhenever there's a question about how to procee.
Rex Cauldwell is a third generation electrician. I'm just a third generation carpenter.Retired until my next job.
I agree with Cauldwell 100% on this.
But you need to look at the details. And how the house was wired.
For example that whirlpool probably can't be on the same circuit because of the size of the load. But it requires GFCI protection anyway.
But if the fan is on the bath circuit and is over the shower/tub the manufactures specs probably require it to be GFCI protected.
And on new house the refigerator is in most case on separate circuit (as or the other fix applicances) from the 2 small appliance circuits.
I just wouldn't want to see someone do an end run around a 20A GFCI circuit breaker (swap it out) because lights or a heater are on the same circuit, trip the breaker, and they get tired of running downstairs to reset it. People do things like that.
Does that clarify my "no substitute" statement? Electrically equivalent doesn't always mean functionally equivalent. And wiring "to code" sometimes allows stuff I wouldn't do, for the reasons above.
I'm reminded of the family that took the battery out of their carbon monoxide detector because it kept going off -- and then all died one night from carbon monoxide poisoning.
Retired until my next job.
My preference is regular breakers and GFCI receptacles that only feed other devices in the same room. GFCI's trip more often than overcurrent breakers, so it's handy to be able to reset them without leaving the room. If pushing the GFCI button doesn't help, then you go to the panel. If the breaker is tripped, you know that the problem is too much load, not a ground fault. With a combined overcurrent and ground fault breaker, you don't get that clear indication of which problem you have.
-- J.S.
Re:"My preference is regular breakers and GFCI receptacles that only feed other devices in the same room."
A very good idea. I push this also if I get a chance. Some contractors pinch pennies a bit too much, IMHO, for their own good. Sometimes running all required GFI protection possible from one GFI can lead the extended searches trying to find the source of the problem. Often this is a GFI on a back porch or, one of my favorites, buried under stuff and behind shelves in the garage.
It was legal. Just not wise. People will be people. Garages and porches often become storage areas and the GFIs get forgotten. Then they have to call an electrician and pay a hefty bill for what amounts to an Easter egg hunt.
GFCI Receptacles at point of use have advantages
Mainly that to reset it you generally have to remove whatever is plugged in, and that way it is no longer on and unattended when the receptacle is reenergized.
I feel obligated to point out that Rex Cauldwell's advice is against code.
Bathroom receptacles must be on a dedicated circuit, and must have no other outlets, unless those outlets are the lights, fan, etc in that same bathroom.
ALL kitchen receptacles must be on GFCI.
Well, maybe the code has changed in the past 6 years.
>>>Well, maybe the code has
>>>Well, maybe the code has changed in the past 6 years.
Hahaha... it will be interesting to see if irishetalon007 resurfaces.
If so, welcome, bud, but be advised that you inadvertently dug up a thread that was REALLY old.
Question: Why just bedrooms?
My understanding was that the "fault" tended to be near the source. So, if you had a fire from an arc, it would be making carbon monoxide (CO) near the source, i.e., where people are sleeping. CO poisoning cassues drowsieness by hypoxia. So, a fire behind the tv in hte living room would flare up, and set off the SDs (and CO detector, if present), and you'd wake up an escape.
Whereas the nail holding up the ugly picture Aunt Mabel sent that creates an arc in the outlet with both clock radios, the two bed lamps and a hot pad on the bed arcs over, well . . .
The applianced in bed space (sometime while unattended or asleep) was the other reason (fans, electric blankets, space heaters, tv's, etc.) was also cited.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)