When I redid the kitchen I put GFCI receptacles in the island where the sink is. When the BI came to do the final, he told me I needed protection on all the receptacles in the kitchen (although I swear the code only called for them within 3 – or maybe 4 – feet of the sink).
Anyway, last night I tried to install one first in line on one circuit, and couldn’t get it to hold. I have the line wired to the correct side, and with only the line hooked up it works fine. But when I attach the load to the second set of terminals it pops. Eventually, to get the kitchen working I attached both line and load to the line terminals and all of the receptacles on the circuit work fine (this is temprary, of course!).
Do I have a bad receptacle, or is there something else lurking that I don’t understand?
Thanks,
Burt
Replies
If you are using a metal box with a metal romex clamp, the romex may be gripped too tight by the clamp. Loosening the wire clamp may clear the fault.
When you start reconnecting down the line, make sure nothing else is on the line so you are diagnossing just one element at a time.
Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
If you are using a metal box with a metal romex clamp, the romex may be gripped too tight by the clamp. Loosening the wire clamp may clear the fault.
I've had clamps cause problems, but usually in my experience because a burr on the clamp punctured the cable (yes, there were some fireworks when the breaker was turned on).
Please share more about your experience. Did the clamp cause a problem without actually damaging the cable? Maybe due to bringing the conductors close enough to provide a leakage path?
Thanks.
And, I'd add, if loosening the clamp clears the fault then the cable needs to be replaced.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
I've never actually seen a break in any romex. I have had a nick that cause one of them though. Never had any sparks.
What I did have was metal clamps with the screws tightened all the way down. I lossened them, moved the cable back a little to see if I had a penetration. I think I might be uncrossing wires that might be pressed across one another as well. I tighten the romex up again - this time not as much as before. Ta Da - AFI or GFI breaker doesn't rip anymore. No trips down the road either.
This is a remembered example, BTW. I think I've done this three times now.Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
If you tightened the clamp enough to cause a GFCI to trip you damaged the insulation inside the cable, and the cable needs to be replaced.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Most likely you have the neutral side of the load connection crossed with another circuit somewhere. Both hot and neutral must be connected to the load terminals, and those wires must not be connected to any other circuits.
Do I have a bad receptacle, or is there something else lurking that I don't understand?
Burt, the gfi is doing what's it's designed to do and you have a problem downstream. You have to look at everything on the load side and pinpoint the problem.
Welcome to electrical trouble-shooting 101 :-)
1st up: this isn't part of a around-the-counter 3-wire circuit is it?
Ed
this isn't part of a around-the-counter 3-wire circuit is it?
Not sure what that is...
Not sure what that is...
12/3 rx used to bring two 120-v circuits to the countertop receptacles.
It used to be that we could run it around a countertop and power every other outlet with say the black wire, then the others would be the red wire.
But that doesn't work in conjunction with GFI's, 'cuz the GFI reads a draw on the shared neutral as a fault current.
Clear as mud?
You will know this if there are both red and black wires in the boxes.
Naw, it ain't that.
Naw, it ain't that.
Burt,
Now you have to get methodical. Do you own a continuity tester? You want to find an unwanted connection between hot and ground, or neutral and ground.
First turn off the circuit and unplug everything on the load side outlets. Then take all the wires off the GFI. Check the load-side wires for continuity between hot and ground , then neutral and ground. Unless the GFI is bad, which from the symptoms you describe I don't think it is, you will find continuity in one pair of wires. (unless there is more than one fault!).
Then remove a receptacle from near the middle of the load-side run. Don't disconnect it, but check it for continuity on the conductors you've identified as the problem. If there isn't continuity then the problem is in that box and was likely a pinched wire or a bare ground against the side of the receptacle.
Otherwise, undo the hot and neutral connections in that box. Check the pair coming in and the ones going out to find which one has the problem. When that's done you have eliminated the outlets on the side that DON'T show a problem.
Follow the problem this way, outlet to outlet, and you will eventually identify either an outlet box that contains the problem or a piece of cable between two boxes that is bad.
Ed
Edited 5/2/2007 11:16 pm ET by edlee
Okay everyone, this weekend I'll dig into it and find the problem(s). Thanks for all of the suggestions and information. I'll report back when I find it.
Suspect a similar problem if the circuit involved also feeds a lighting circuit. It's easy to get wires crossed in, eg, a multi-switch box.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
"1st up: this isn't part of a around-the-counter 3-wire circuit is it?"Others may not understand what you are talking about.It is a multi-wire circuit, where you have two hots and a neutral (plus ground). The hots are on different legs of the 120/240 so that the neutral ONLY caries the difference.So one receptacle would be connect to one Hot (say black) and neutral, the next one to the other hot (red) and neutral.On circuits like that it either needs to be split up into two separate run (each with a neutral) or in install a GFCI at each location or to use a 120/240 GFCI breaker.To OB. The NEC has required GFCI protection on all receptacles serving the countertop since 96 to 99 versions. It had been within 6ft.But one local community, while adopting the last versions, has local amendments that only require them within 6 ft of the sink.In addtion to the other comments. Any connects between neutral of another circuit or neutral to ground will cause your problems..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
It should be pointed out that the "year" of a NEC version only crudely corresponds to the year in which it is adopted by NEC itself, and has virtually no correspondence to the year in which the AHJ adopts it.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
OB
How did you determine which is load and which is line side ? Double check yourself.
Do you have the line (and load) hot and neutrals connected to the correct screw terminals? Hot(black wire) to gold screw, Neutral (white wire) to silver screw.
Maybe you reversed the neutrals unknowingly, it can happen, again double check yourself and let us know how it works out.
Wiring all wires on the line side(properly, of course) simply bypasses the GFCI function downsteam but should still give you GFCI protection at that one outlet, trip the test button to confirm, then re-set. If it trips and resets you reversed something in your earlier attempt.
Geoff
P.S. Bill H. will scold me if I'm wrong on this, TIA, Bill :)
This may not apply to your situation but the last time I rewired a kitchen, I had 1 bad GFI, and one that only had the ground hole in it. No slots !!! When I talked to an electrician friend of mine he said he runs into alot of faulty imported stuff like this. Always has extras because of things like this.
I would have bet you have a shared neutral somewhere but in reading the posts... I'm sure woodturner is right you have a burr or shared leakage. Or pehaps it's sunspots... hey woodturner have you any experience with sunspots affecting GFCI's?
The sooner this guy electrocutes himself, the better this forum will be for electric advice.