I was helping out a non-profit agency by inspecting the house for them gratis. I notice that the outlet for the clothes washer was not GFI protected (and it occurs to me the one here at my house is not GFI protected).
Should it be??
Thanks.
Rich Beckman
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Replies
When rewire our house my electricial explained that the washer is not considered an applaince that you would plug it in and out, even tho within the wet area.
You plug it in and leave it alone.
So GFI not required.
I'm not sure how the code reads but generally speaking, any place where water and electricity can get together should have a GFI.
They're very good protection, inexpensive too. Just be sure that the installation is done correctly, properly grounded. Otherwise the GFI circuit will not be in effect, it will not shut down as it's meant to.
Edited 2/7/2008 8:58 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
A GFI does not have to be grounded to be effective.Older code doesn't require a GFI for a dedicated washing machine outlet, though some inspectors interpret "dedicated" as requiring a single vs duplex outlet. There may be newer code or perhaps a local amendment that requires it, however.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
A GFI does not have to be grounded to be effective.
They do need to be grounded on some types of wiring, BX for example. My advice is meant to be cautionary.
Your advice is incomplete, incorrect and could be dangerous.
"They do need to be grounded on some types of wiring, BX for example. My advice is meant to be cautionary. "Absolutley not.A GFCI works by have a torid coil through which the hot and neutral passes. It gives a has an output signal that is proportional the difference between the current that leaves and the current that returns. That difference being caused by a ground fault.No ground is needed for it to operated, period.And in fact using a GFCI is one way specified in the NEC that you can use to replace ungrounded receptacles with ground style and not have to run an actual ground wire. However, the receptacle is labled Not Equipment Ground.Bill, BEE, MSEE..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
"And in fact using a GFCI is one way specified in the NEC that you can use to replace ungrounded receptacles with ground style and not have to run an actual ground wire. However, the receptacle is labled Not Equipment Ground."Bill, does that have to be a GFCI at each outlet location or can it be several outlets downstream from one GFCI?BruceT
No it can be an upstream GFCI receptacle or breaker.The single pack GFCI's come with the No Equipment Ground Label and also a GFCI protected label.I don't know if the GFCI Protected label is required by code or not (and I am not talking about just the ungrounded ones). Never looked for that in the code for that.The only problem is with home inspectors that don't understand how to test GFCI's will stick their tester into on of the GFCI's or worse downstream GFCI's and when they don't trip write them up.The only approved test is using the builtin test button on the GFCI..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
"...home inspectors that don't understand how to test GFCI's will stick their tester into on of the GFCI's or worse downstream GFCI's and when they don't trip write them up.The only approved test is using the builtin test button on the GFCI."So my little plug-in GFCI tester uses a different method to trip the GFCI than the built-in test button uses?
BruceT
Slightly different.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
Yes, and no.The basic test uses a resistor to simulate a ground fault. In the case of a GFCI it goes from the Hot AFTER the sense coil to the Neutral before the sense coil.The tester does not have access to that and goes from the Hot to the Ground. And if you don't have a ground then it won't work even if the the GFCI is working properly.No I have schematics for the older GFCI, but they have had several cycle in the design. The last one required they have an end of life disable system, but that it can done via the internal test. I don't know exactly how they do that nor what the UL tests are to prove that it has that feature. But I know that new GFCI's come tripped and need power to reset.And that if you reset one and the power if off, so that the GFCI feature is not working then you can hit the test button and it will "trip". That is some kind of mechanical operation, but don't know what it is doing..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Your advice was incorrect and dangerous. A GFCI should be grounded where a ground is available, but will function as designed without a ground.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
A GFCI should be grounded where a ground is available, but will function as designed without a ground.
That may be what my electrician meant when he showed me what he was doing and explained his reasoning. Considering Bill's subsequent explanations of how GFIs work, I'm inclined to believe that was the case.
I'd call the electrician for his view on the subject but he retired to live in Hawaii a couple years ago. Maybe I'll use this as an excuse to go look him up. ;-)
"I'm not sure how the code reads but generally speaking, any place where water and electricity can get together should have a GFI."Not really.There are many places where water and electricity "can get togehter" and GFCI's are never used.Dishwasher, garbage disposals, electric hot water heaters, almost any type of hydronic heating system installed in the last 50 years..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Well then Bill, it seems that the licensed electrian who swapped the GFIs in this old house was wrong about something.
He showed me what he was doing and explained it to me in some detail. As I'd known and worked with him for over twenty years, I'll take his word over yours.
Perhaps it's only old BX wiring which requires grounding of the GFIs. This house was built in '52.
In any case I still advise the OP to check carefully with a local authority about the wiring in question before proceeding.
Edited 2/7/2008 10:22 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
Bill speaks the truth. I also have an MEng in EE and can attest that a GFCI utilizes a current transformer to detect leakage. The actual electronics involved are not even connected to the ground wire.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
As explained to me by my electrician, the new NEC requires all that stuff to be GFI.
Sump pump, Washer, etc. He tells me that the new GFI's are designed to handle the motors where as the old GFI's would often trip when a motor is involved due to the energy losses inside a motor causing the fault.
Prior to the 06 NEC (and IRC) it is my understanding that it was not required and I know we never did it in PA.
He is not exactly right.Here is where GFCI's are required in a residence.120 volt circuits ONLY.Any receptacle serving a kitchen countertop.
Any receptacle in a bathroom.
Any recetpacle in a garage
Any receptacle in a basement or crawlspace.
Any receptacle outside (this has changed over the years sometimes only withing certain distance of the ground).
Any receptacles within 6 ft of anyother sink. It only included wet bars until recently, IIRC the 2005 NEC.For receptacles in garages and basements there where 2 exceptions.
Receptacles not easly reached (for example one the ceiling for a garage door opener).And a single receptacle or a single appliance or duplex for 2 appliances that are not normally moved and stay in one place. That include washer, driers, sump pumps, refigerators and freezers.Those 2 exceptions have been removed from the 2008 NEC. I don't have a copy of the 2008, but I have not heard of any requirements for GFCI's in any new places.So a washer in a basement for garage would not need a GFCI under the old code, but would under the new one.A washer in a bathroom would need a GFCI under either.A washer in a living room, kitchen, laundry room would not need a GFCI under either code unless it was within 6 ft of a sink.Also note that some places are just now starting to adopt the 2008 NEC. And it will be sometime before most do and some are have just adopted the 2005 and I few places are still on 90's era codes..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
This install is legit in my area. Typical exceptions for GFCI in the basement include:
1. "Receptacles not readily accessible"
2. "A single receptacle or duplex for two applicances located within dedicated space for each appliance that in normal use is not easily moved from one place to another, and that is cord- and plug-connected."
3. "A receptacle supplying only a permanently installed fire alarm or burglar alarm system."
So... #2 is the exception that would apply in this case if the inspector let it fly.
The 2008 NEC will require a GFCI for that application, but chances are your area hasn't adopted the 2008 version yet. Check with the local authorities - it may be posted somewhere on the state electrical board website.
"The 2008 NEC will require a GFCI for that application,"I thought that they just removed the excemption in garages and basements.And not added any new locations. But I have not seen the 2008..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
You're right. Even though it wasn't mentioned in the original post, I made the assumption the washer was in the basement. Around here, almost everyone keeps them there, although that isn't necessarily the case in other parts of the country. If the washer is on the first floor or higher, it's not an issue (at least for now...eventually they'll probably require GFCIs everywhere.)
Hmmm... Is the lower floor of a split entry a "basement"?
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
LOL!!I'm sorry, I really didn't intend this to turn into an argument.The washer is in the basement. I'm sure the work was done and inspected . Maybe twenty years ago or so.I know it used to meet code. And I know it doesn't have to be changed if no work is being done.But should it be changed? As in ASAP? Or just when the day comes that there is enough work being done that this outlet is somehow involved and so must be changed? If that made sense.
Rich Beckman
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GFCI are required in basement, garages, and outdoors becuase they are used with portable powertools and extensions cords that are often abused and misued. Such as cutting off the ground pin, and pulling out the plug by hanking on the cord and running over the cord.A washing machine has none of those problems.It is grounded through the plug and receptacle. No real need for a GFCI.I have no idea what the logic was that they eliminated the exception in the 2008 version.GFCI's in kitchen and bathrooms are for a completely different reason. The ability to drop plugged in device in the water and then try and fish them out.No if you are in the hibit of dropping a washer that is plugged in into a pool then I would forget about it..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
You plug it in and leave it alone.
So GFI not required.
Kinda what I said in the very begining!
It's safe. The washer is grounded through the plug and, oddly, through the water connections. You can add an additional ground wire for good measure, just jumpering from the back of the washer to a copper pipe.The dryer is more apt to be a hazard, if it has a 3-pin plug and 120V timer.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
>The dryer is more apt to be a hazard, if it has a 3-pin plug and 120V timer.<
Can you 'spalin that to me? the 3 vs 4 pin connection...
A 3-pin electric dryer connector has ground and neutral combined on one pin. Not a big deal if the dryer has no 120V parts (and therefore no need for a neutral), but sometimes the timer or electronic controls are 120V. A bad neutral connection at the plug can then put 120V on the dryer frame.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
The dryer motors also run 120.For electric stoves they used to have 2 segements in the burner elements and they would switch then in different combinations of 1 or 2 elements, series and parallel and across 120 or 240 to get 5-7 different "heats". So there was a logical reason to have 120/240 on stoves. But I have no idea why the 120/240 on dryers. They could just as well be made with a 240 motor and timer.But that is best the point.Anyway a on a 3 wire dryer circuit you have 2 hots and a neutral. And the code requires that is be a NEUTRAL. Insulated white conductor or SE (severvice entrance cable with a bare neutral wrapped around.Now the code allowed the case of the dryer to be "grounded" by connecting it to the neutral conductor.Why I don't know. Some rummors where that came from WWII and trying to save copper. I doubt it. For one reason equipement wasn't grounded at that time. Grounding did not become common for another 20 years.Anyway the 3 wire system continued until the 1996 code where all new dryer circuits need 4 wire for everything. Earlier changes in the code required them when the circuits where run off a sub-panel and I understand many local amendments required the 4 wire circuits.But it is unusal in that existing 3 wire circuits are not just grandfathered in by bein existing, like anyother wiring that was done before a code change, the new code specifically calls out that existing 3-wire circuits that go back to the main are acceptable and a new dryer can be installed on the old circuit..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Thanks Bill, Dan
"oddly, through the water connections."Not really.The only know path is the water. And thet not good enough conductor to clear a fault.And even if the pipe was all copper or steel (not a very good assumption these days)you can have rubber hose connecting to the machine, plastic valve bodies and internal rubber hoses..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Not a good enough conductor to clear a fault, but good enough to clear leakage.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
I would be surprised if the washer is grounded through the water connections. All the washers I have seen lately have plastic inlet nipples, which seems to me breaks the continuity. Unless the water is actually flowing, I suppose.And never mind the possibility of plastic piping in the water supply.
washing machines, and dishwashers exist in environments where water and electricity are mixed, which defeats the purpose of gfis. No GFI is needed.
"washing machines, and dishwashers exist in environments where water and electricity are mixed, which defeats the purpose of gfis."How does it defeat the purpose?GFCI's are used on hot tubs, whirlpool tubs, adn swimming pools..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.