I need to glue up some treated wood, laminate a bent shape actually.
What glue is best for this?
Discussion Forum
Discussion Forum
Up Next
Video Shorts
Featured Story
Fine Homebuilding's editorial director has some fun news to share.
Featured Video
Highlights
"I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.
Replies
PL 400...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Gorilla ?
used it before... must be the chemicals.. didn't hold...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Another guy I work with built a laminated PT rail out of it ~2 years ago it was still holding a few months ago when I was at the house.
Could be 'casues of the weather of any of multitude of reasons..
Gorilla didn't hold and PL fixed it...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Elmers polyurathane should do well. Its a lot like Gorilla. Don't use too much - it can foam out.
PL for pressure treated wood.
F
There he goes—one of God's own prototypes—a high powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live and too rare to die.
—Hunter S. Thompson
from Fear And Loathing In Las Vegas
Depends on how much the glue line will show vs. the exposure to UV and such.
Anyone espousing the virtue of one adhesive over another, without more info is a fool.
Start with the basics.
http://www.JamestownDisrtributors.com will lead you to the path of quality adhesives.
see the lines of 3m or West or Sika...
edit for edit sake
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
You gotta be kidding me ..Jorge is @ what %? Now?
Edited 4/16/2006 1:44 am ET by Sphere
Edited 4/16/2006 1:47 am ET by Sphere
Sphere is absolutely right. You need to give more details. Is it pieces of solid you're gluing or pieces of ply? Can you tolerate springback or not? What sizes/shapes? Is it going to see flexing loads? Is it smooth or does the glue need to be gap-filling? etc. etc.
Without this info the other folks are just shooting from the hip.
DG/Builder
I'm making curved stair stringers out of 2x12's for a deck. stringers will be about 10 feet long, with a 1 foot curve starting about halfway down.
The curves will go out on each side of the steps, fan-tail style. The middle stingers will all be strait.
I'm figuring on ripping the 2x12's into 3/8th thick on the band saw, then glue them back together on a form to follow the curve. I've done some vacume press lamination before, so I'll try the same thing here.... put the pieces in the vac bag, bend it on the form... with a little help from what ever clamps are needed.
A little bit of spring back is expected and exceptable since I'll be cutting the treads, risers to fit
Vac bag and clamps huh? Lemme see how you do that. Resawing a 12" x 2''x whatever is also super human.
I been doing this over 25 yrs. Show some progress, I need the education.
Tell me about the bandsaw blade you choose to use, and the fence..then we'll talk glue.
PT ain't gonna play well with your ideas..trust me.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
You gotta be kidding me ..Jorge is @ what %? Now?
granted it's an out of the ordinary project, but, aint that one of the things a band saw excells at - making veneer. There are fences and blades for such, unless the fact that the wood being pressure treated is going to throw a wrench in the thing.
I'll experiment with a few small peices first.
Can you get pressure treated in thinner slices than 3/4? Someone also mentioned a special treated plywood for this. Can you get that sort of thing in 10 foot lengths?
I don't know how you are gonna make the stringers but now that I know that you are from my area, I'll answer a few other of your Qs:
>> Can you get pressure treated in thinner slices than 3/4? <<
No, and I have looked pretty hard.
>> Someone also mentioned a special treated plywood for this. <<
PT plywood comes in 1/2" though and is available in all the regular places. The good news is that it loves to bend (warp) - as in finding a straight piece is next to impossible :-)
>> Can you get that sort of thing in 10 foot lengths? <<
No, not that I know of but call Stock BS - if anyone has it (or can get it) they would. Also check with Brooks BS - they have the best selection of PT stuff around although it is still somewhat limited. They are by Highwoods.
Wasn't there an article in FHB or JLC about a year ago about doing curved exterior stringers?
Your questions are good. I'll try my best to guide you, but it appears you have set sail in a bad direction.
If you are equipped to resaw. then so be it. I see a knottage problem and MC variance being a real hurt. It don't fly bro'.
PT plywood is also prone to not playin well with others.
No, PT is not readily available in less than .750 if at all.
Your best bet is re-think the curved area or build a steamer.
PT Yellow Pine is already curved when you buy it, might wanna keepa sharp eye out for a favorable twist.
Yer hosed on paper, so jump into it, or bail water.
I give ya a generouse 50% chance of hitting the goal.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
You gotta be kidding me ..Jorge is @ what %? Now?
About a 1-2 years ago FHB had an article on building curved outdoor steps. I think that it was by Mike Guerin (sp?), but it might have been AE.Don't recall what materials where used.
Yes. It twas Mike Gurtin (sp?) But he knoes his shid. , and had a favorable project that din't call for resawing.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
You gotta be kidding me ..Jorge is @ what %? Now?
Issue #162, May 2004. He uses 4 layers of 1/2" PT ply on each stringer. The inner stringer has a radius of 129". He used epoxy with microfibers.
To original poster- I would buy this article before you create a headache for yourself. I mean, if you just want to try some stuff and experiment, be my guest. But the article is a good one, and it's definitely worth a few bucks to buy a back issue or download it from the archive.
zak
Hello to all,
I finished the steps a few months ago. Been slack about getting the pictures on here, but better late than never.
Thought they'd be of interest to those on this thread.
I steamed and bent most of the pieces. the lower balustrade sections are connected to the stringers, which are connected to the steps / risers for long term stability.
The top cap is simply pattern cut from a 22" wide piece of treated 2x (two 2x12's edge glued with pl)
Verra' nice! Just called the DW over from cooking the kids' breakfast.
Forrest
NICE!
Is there a stringer that is bent the same as the skirt board? Assuming those are seperate components, what is each made of? Did you build a steamer out of a piece of pipe or what?
looks great! did you end up steamin' and bendin' or just laminating and bending.also, is there any health risks to steaming pt wood?
thanks to all, and I'll try to run thru the process and answer the questions.
The stairs fan from 8 feet at the top to 12 at the bottom, so there a 2 foot bend in the skirtboards, rails.
Everything was steamed and bent, except of the top cap of the hand rail. That I made by gluing together two 2x10's with pl premium, and cutting the curved shape with the jigsaw.
I made a form, which was basically a curved stud wall that had a little more bend than what I needed for the skirt board. this compensated for the springback when taking the boards off the form. I let each piece dry over night on the form. I'd say overnight is minimum for letting them cool, but the longer you leave them on the form, the more they will hold the shape. be prepared to go thru a lot of practice pieces. it took me about a week to get the hang of it.
I made the form just a little higher than the rise of the steps. the boards were placed diagonally across the form, so the follow the same path as they will on the steps. this twist the board as well as bends it, I belive this is called a helix curve. When the skirt board for one side was removed, the next was placed on the form crossing the path of the first. Once installed, if you put a level on the side of the skirtboard, it should be vertically level at any point.
The steamer was an old propane turkey cooker, radiator hose, to a 12" dia hvac duct, the round flexible kind made of plastic with insulation in it (like you would seen on most air returns). It had no problem dealing with the heat, and since it was insulated, it cooked the wood very efficiently. Plug the ends with round piece of metal (simi tight, so some pressure can escape), attaching the radiator hose to one of the plugs.
It looks like some kind of gigantic redneck liquor still / meth lab or something. be prepared for some suspicious looks if you tell anyone what you are trying to build when shopping for parts.
cook 2x's for about 2 hours. They come out pretty dang flexible. Id say it be possible to bend a 2x4x8 into a hoop if you were so inclined. bending the 2x12 did take a lot of muscle and I usually had 1 or 2 people helping with the those. Work fast, you get a couple of minutes to get the thing bent on the form and they go by quickly.
watch out for knots. I picked thru piles of lumber to find knot free pt, but it can be done. don't bother with the 2x4 stacks, even for the 2x4 parts. you will have you best luck finding knot free 2x12's (i could usually find about 2 out of a stack of 50) and ripping them down to 2x4's if you need them.
Someone asked if there was any health concerns steaming pt... Id say probably so! I did all this outdoors. I'd avoid breathing the steam. There will be some nasty looking green water dripping out of the hvac pipe... don't drink it.
That is absolutely beautiful... I am floored!
Now I have to ask the other obvious question....
How much do you charge a customer for something like this? It obviously consumes far more time than ordinary stairs would. Have you done this enough otherwise to be able to accuyrately bid this job or is it something that turned out to be not worth the monetary reward... it is certainly worth the reward of accomplishment.
Will you get increased problems with warping or returning to "straight" with the structure being exposed to the weather all year long?
http://www.petedraganic.com/
There were several parts to this job, but for the stairs, I had quoted about 3k. considering all the hours and practice lumber i went thru getting this thing started, I politly asked for 6k when finished. we met in the middle at 4500 and both I and the customer felt like it was a fair deal.
I'd certainly do another one at that price.
as far a boards straiting back out and such, all the bent peices are connected to a non-bent peice, such as the steps or the top cap of the handrail. I went by there a few days ago, and after 4 months or so now, everything is holding up just fine.
thank you for your answers.....and the bit about not drinking the steam, i was thinking that might be kinda bad!one last question, do you think the skirtboard/stringers might be done well with 1/2 pt plywood? and if so, how many laminations? 4 for 2"?.i'm gonna do this, cause my wife saw yer pix, and i have no backbone. (btw, she's a county prosecutor which makes it even harder to disagree....but i digress)any help would be great...thanks,john
I didn't use any plywood, so cant give any first hand advice.
I don't think you would have to steam it for larger radius curves like I used on these stairs. you would have to glue, laminate serveral layers together for a side stringer - skirt board.
There's a few articals either in jlc or fhb, and I belive we went over them early in this tread, about doing it that way.
Good luck. Let me know if I can be of any more help.
thanks for your help and ideas....i'll let you know how it turns out.oops, one last question, how did you fasten treads and risers to bent skirtboard/stringer? i was going to use (bent) plywood cleats.
that sounds like it'll work. I used cleats made of 2x's that i coped with a jigsaw. My treads actually hang free off of the strait stringers untill the curve gets about 6" or so out, then start using cleats.
It will take a while even to do the treads and risers. no 2 peices will be cut the same.
thanks for the help!
I may be late in posting, but that is really nice work!
Everything one would want- durable material with an inviting sweep toward the house....
another question for you.....when you bent these, did you have to bend them on the "rise/run" angle as well, or can you get away with bending them on a flat surface and then tipping them on angle.i ask because you've inspired me to do something like this, and a jig in 3 dimensions for bending will be more difficult than on a tablethanks
>>>>>>>>did you have to bend them on the "rise/run" angle as well, or can you get away with bending them on a flat surface and then tipping them on angle.I'm also inspired by it. That's some great looking work. When I saw your question, I was running thru the process in my mind. I've seen stairbuilders fabricate handrails by clamping them to the risers after laminating or steaming them. They fit perfectly.
"Let's go to Memphis in the meantime, baby" - John Hiatt.
http://grantlogan.net/
i've seen that too....only in this case, you don't have structure to clamp to......you essentially are bending the structure, it'd be easier on the ground or in the shop though i have a hunch (in my case) i'll have to do it in place for the deckknow what i mean?
>>>>>you essentially are bending the structureHopefully the OP will be along and clue us in, but the structure is not curved. Individual components are. I bet the stringers are straight. Install the stringers, risers and treads. Clamp to the end of the risers or treads.
"Let's go to Memphis in the meantime, baby" - John Hiatt.
http://grantlogan.net/
the interior stringers are straight, but i bet the "stringers" inside the skirt board....the bent thingys....are also structural and bent
BTW..wet white oak is fine, as is walnut,locust and poplar.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
You gotta be kidding me ..Jorge is @ what %? Now?
I saw for myself a curved (turned 90degrees) beam over a deck built up of PT 2x12's last week. Guy built a tubular steamer (don't know what he heated with...) long enough for the wood--20' at least!--and steamed each one individually, carried it over to the deck and formed/clamped about 4 of them together on the ground. Said he used gorilla glue and while they were still wet.
He said they bent effortlessly and stayed right where placed.
The rest of this house was nothing like anything I've ever seen--a local architect and previous builder with a lot of time and ambition.
Pat
sparked my intrest about steaming. what size boards was he steaming? can a 1 foot bend be made over about 5 feet of 2x12?
I'm starting to picture a pot of water connected to a few feet of galv hvac duct.... come to think of it, somebody gave me an old turkey fryer last year.
Hey,
This was a built up beam, of PT 2x10 or 2x12 at least 3 boards thick--each board full thickness and full length If my memory serves.
He made a tubular steamer out of something big and round, capped both ends with board in, and had an inlet for steam, created by any type of boiling thing...
He said he stuck a couple meat thermos in each end to monitor the temps and it got right up there right away.
After steaming each board, he took them out and placed them in their final bent position--clamping and gluing with polyurethane glue--gorilla glue. He described them as very flexible.
His bends were 90 degrees over about 8 feet. He built a curved header, or beam, to carry rafters for his att. porch, deck.
I could get you more info but I'd have to hassle him. He the architect on a job I've been working on, and this is his own place.
Pretty damn impressive.
Pat
I read through the other posts to your query - some good ideas mixed in there. You should be able to bend the 2x12 you are planning to band saw if you rip it at your 3/8" thickness or even 1/2" and you probably won't have to steam if you have a strong form to clamp the pieces to. You noted a 1' flair but since it will be helical, you won't actually be bending it that tight. My guess is the bending will be easy
For glue - I'd go for PL Premium (not 400). It's a polyurethane exterior grade and I've had it in service on a couple exterior PT projects for a few years and all is still well. Good thing about the polyurethane base is it's moisture cured so damp PT will acheive a good bond. Just make sure you dust the surfaces off well before gluing up. To make double sure you get good contact, I recommend screeding off the glue with a 1/8" or 3/16" V notch trowel. Apply glue to both surfaces.
On the curved stair article I wrote that other posters referred to, I used West System epoxy with a filler and micro fibers to thicken it up and give it body to fill uneven spaces between the plywood laminations I made up. But if I was doing the project today, I'd probably use PL Premium - less mess, more open time, good bond. Although it would probably cost more in materials - it would save labor.
Good luck with the project,
Mike
thanks mikeguertn, and waters..
I'll experiment with the pl premium.
Steaming is sounding kind of interesting, perhaps cause I havn't done it before. It might work just fine for the side stringers, they will be bolted to the stair structure which will maintain thier shape.
How well does a peice of treated maintain it's shape if steamed, bent, dried - cooled, then left to it's on devices?.. i'm asking since the hand rails will have to be curved as well, and they will only be connected at top and bottom, unlike the stair side stringers which I can secure to the main stair body.
also, the top cap of the rail will be a 2x4 in the horizontal position, can it be steamed, bent sideways. perhaps that is the one peice that I would have to laminate.
I think the stringers will hold their shape if you have risers and treads applied. The handrails will go wild if you use SYP - PT I think - even if laminated. If you use Hem fir or doug fir PT you'll be better off. Or even better - use red cedar. You can also thermo-form some of the composite decking materials (plastic/wood fiber).Steaming is a good system but I've never had good luck for the effort. But I know guys who swear by it.
The PL line is the best I've ever used. The polyurethane one in the red, yellow and black tube. I demo'd a deck for a friend who had used the Pl to glue the treads and power wrap. There was no way to take it apart. The wood broke, but the glue line stayed.
I was skeptical of the holding power of the PL until the demo. Now, I won't use anything else.
Mike
Ocean State Builders, Inc.
Wilmington NC
a lot of us say the same about PL for the same reason...
we had to take something apart it was used on...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!