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This press release was posted on www.energyusernews.com on 10/01/01.
What would be the right price to pay for it when this technolgy becomes availible to the home owner?
TRAVERSE CITY, MI-In a press release issued August 7th, General Motors (GM) announced that it planned to develop and market fuel cells to heat and power homes and businesses by the middle of the decade. The company doesn’t expect to make fuel cells available for automotive use until the end of the decade.
In making the announcement, GM unveiled a stationary generator based on the company’s state-of-the-art fuel processing and stack technology for automotive applications. The stationary unit runs on natural gas, methane, or gasoline.
http://www.energyusernews.com/CDA/ArticleInformation/news/news_item/0,2588,64545,00.html
Posted on: 10/01/2001
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Replies
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rman....GM is a major investor in Plug Power. Both companies are near me with PP being right next to Albany Airport. A friend of mines husband works as an engineer for PP. The technology is still not ready for mass production. They started to talk it up to get investors, then got caught fudging their trial data. Most of this is not widely known.
I asked to be one of their trial homes. Well they actually have nothing to try even though they said trials would start more than a year ago.
I would love to be off line from the power utility.
near the stream looking at a Stirling motor generator made for large yachts,
aj
*GM is the big boy on the block but Nuvera has been delivering product longer...check them out..http://www.nuvera.com/comp.html
*AJ's got their number.. Worked on fuel cells as far back as 1968, big $$ spent in 1980s with U.T., Argonne, and GE Aerospace for military/space applications, worked great except cost was "military or space only". The cost breakthru has always been "just around the corner" for 30 years! Maybe inside/out Pt molecular thick nanotubes cat. will be an answer, but don't hold your breath for anything that is anywhere near the cost of present utility grid power.
*Art....Interesting to hear from a fuel cell engineer! I had a school teacher that was ex GE...He used to redesign washing machines...Told us to never become engineers because of his GE experience! Also learned how cheap something must be made to be sold retail for $250. Every ounce of material, number of parts....etc.Near the Stirling engine stream,aj
*Uh...GE is actually making fuel cells for sale in residential applications. Cost is 5-7K. They installing one this spring in the UP (saw them pour the concrete for the slab), and talked to the owners, who are very excited.
*jason...get us more info then...i want one now.near the stream,ajI just did a search...Not much to be found...
*Yah...here's the website. It's for GE Microgen units.http://www.plugpower.com/technology/I'll be up there next weekend, and I'll talk to the owners, but I'm pretty sure they'd already plopped their money down and were awaiting delivery after the snow thaws in June. Totally cool stuff, as far as I'm concerned, and we've been looking at this sort of stuff for a couple years. Don't know all the physics and such, but they've been promising public release of these units since about 98 or 99.
*As I said....This stuff is not available yet...and the idea of using the heat they give off is years away.near the stream,ajI still want to be off line though!Jason...get details that the site does not give. Cost of unit...Annual cost of maintenance...cost to replace the parts they say last 4 years...including labor. The site also says that they cannot be used if you are not connected to the grid!
*Sorry I was gone so long; getting ready for our first child and I'm just about at wit's end finishing up jobs, getting ready for winter and so on. Anyhow, have been having the same conversation on fuel cells on another site. Here's my post from the other site. I'll apologize now for a, er...well, rather bad estimate on that cost. And I'll get back in the next week or so and post all the sites I have with the information:"...Oringinally, I looked into the technology for my own cabin...however, as we built more and more for others, and I talked to them about their electrical needs, more people got interested. There are generally three problems we face in some of these areas where power isn't available; the first is of course a total absence of power lines and facilities in these remote areas. Secondly, for some, there is a huge cost associated with trying to get power lines (one was quoted 50K plus). Finally, there are still enough private, semi-private, and easement-less areas that are controlled by people who refuse to let power cross their property. So, there's actually quite a few people that I know who are interested in this technology, some for cabins and such, and some for permenant homes. Generally, off-grid electrical users that I know rely on either generators or generators and some form of electrical storage (batteries, inverters, converters, low-voltage appliances, etc.), in conjunction with propane use (lights, refrigerators, stoves, fireplaces, etc.). Some have been fairly successful, while others, well, haven't. Also, most alternate means of power generation don't work too well in this area; wind generation generally isn't allowed (local zoning because of the impact on the visual environment), and the cost associated with getting something above the trees. Solar is the same; not enough room, or sunlight to be as viable, particularly for the expense. So...in short, I have, and others, been looking at this for a while. Originally, I contacted DTE energy in Michigan, which is supposed to be the supplier for these units in our area (that is, most of Michigan). I've talked to them a number of times, and the numbers have changed quite a bit. Originally, they thought it'd be 5K for a unit, and it would be available in 1999. Than 7.5K in 2000. And so on. Here is the latest response I got from DTE in an email (in it's entirety): "Dear Jason: Thank you for your interest in our fuel cells. At DTE Energy Technologies, Inc., we are in the forefront of the development of this new technoloy. It is our goal to offer consumers a compact, safe, economical, and environmentally friendly appliance to meet their energy needs. The prototype fuel cells are about the size of a refrigerator flipped on it's side and has the capacity of running a 2,000- 2,500 square foot home. However, to be preceise the capacity actually depends on the number of electrical appliances found in the home. For example, a home that has an air conditioning system, a pool heater, and all electrical appliances will require a larger system. A fuel cell has an output of 7kw of maximum continuous power. The initial fuel cells will cost between $15,000- $20,000 dollars installed. It is anticioated that in a few years the price will decrease. The prototype unit the RU1, is slated to be available in 2002'and the later model the RU4, which is capable of running the entire home independent of the grid, will be available in 2003'. If you have further questions or concerns, please give us a call at (248) 27-2236. Once again thank you for your interest in DTE." So first, let me apologize for any misconception; that 15-20K price tag is a whole lot more than I originally anticipated, but I do have a former customer who insists they're going to put one in this spring. He-he-he. Well, I'll pour the cement slab for the thing with no problem, and I'm anxious to see it actually in place and see it work! I'll hunt up all my old sites and forum discussions on this and post them when I get a chance (certainly in the next few days)...."Once again, I apologize for "reposting" my post from another site; kind of cheesy, I know (sort of like copying last year's term paper to this years class). Gotta run before mama bursts, though!
*As your posts states....You have to be connected to the grid to use the fuel cell system that is coming out first....Lousey system so far...no use of heat generated...poop.near the crap...floatin down the fuel cell dream stream,aj
*One more for historical reference, relative to economics and schedule.United Technologies installed and operated a 40kW fuel cell demonstration unit that was over 89% efficient overall (counting heat recovery, 40% elec,49% heat) at a laundry (laundry processes were a good load for the low temp "waste heat")in Portland, OR in the late 1970's - cost was over $1000K. Last time I looked at the operation was 1980, and have no idea if it is still operating. It was a phosphoric acid type operating from Nat gas, and was done in conjunction with PGE. The size was a cube about 12 ft on a side. Also in the early 1980's, UT and GE had operational stand alone fuel cells (one was for a govmnt contract for military field power sources)that were factory(lab) operational but don't recall any delivered except for a couple of demo units. UT was promoting "home units" in 1980 already.This historical note to show how far you can trust near term time promises of fuel cell delivery and cost. In year 2040 the cost may be down to residential levels.
*Here's the link for GTE:http://www.dtetech.com/energynow/portfolio/2_1_1.aspAnd no, you don't have to be hooked up to the grid, as far as I know. But the price...
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This press release was posted on http://www.energyusernews.com on 10/01/01.
What would be the right price to pay for it when this technolgy becomes availible to the home owner?
TRAVERSE CITY, MI-In a press release issued August 7th, General Motors (GM) announced that it planned to develop and market fuel cells to heat and power homes and businesses by the middle of the decade. The company doesn't expect to make fuel cells available for automotive use until the end of the decade.
In making the announcement, GM unveiled a stationary generator based on the company's state-of-the-art fuel processing and stack technology for automotive applications. The stationary unit runs on natural gas, methane, or gasoline.
http://www.energyusernews.com/CDA/ArticleInformation/news/news_item/0,2588,64545,00.html
Posted on: 10/01/2001
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