I’m becoming comfortable with this new set up. I’m not saying I like it, only that I have learned to live with it and will continue to do so if necessary. I joined this discussion board to better my business knowledge and share construction techniques. Up until the format change this was the best place on the net for that type of content. Lately the business board has been about as active as a dead cat. A lot of people that contributed to that section have left or are threatening to leave.
We keep hearing from Andy, SYSOP, and others ballyhooing the change to hang in there, give it a chance. For what? So I can communicate with three other people on the business board? It’s not that this new system is difficult to find certain items or make it do what we wish, the whole format is just plain clumsy.
Unless Prospero has a simpler format they can institute, which I highly doubt, Fairly soon there will be nothing for me to log on for.
Replies
And that may be the point, Scott.
The purpose of this new board is to kill the threads, kill the "personality" that creates the flames, keep the exchange short, simple, (sans colors!) and to the point.
Ask a question, get an answer, move on folks, there's nothing to see here. No loitering!
Hard on the eyes to boot.
But, it's free, good people, better ideas, better than I could produce...........
Hope you stick around though, Scott.....
Ahh, so you think this was a master plan to downsize the forum and reduce the amount of bandwidth Taunton needs to purchase?
Scott R.
No, not at all. The purpose of the change was to have a more reliable platform. One thing that you might take a look at is the fact that all of our other forums have adapted much better to Prospero than has Breaktime. For better or worse, we're not going back, but are committed to improving what's here now.
"When you hear hoofbeats, think horses not zebras."Andy Engel, Forum moderator
Andy,
This is the crux of the problem. "The purpose of the change was to have a more reliable platform." From our point of view, we have never seen any problems with reliability. We don't know how difficult it is to operate this forum from your end [nor how expensive it is - if that matters].
All we can see is you've replaced the best forum on the Web with a clutzy bunch of junk. Sure there are a bunch of work-arounds to bring back a versimiltude of one aspect or another of the old board but what's the point? If you can get this prospero system to equal the style and functionality of the old board, then do so. If prospero can't do what WebX could do, then it is obviously inferior. That's what we can't figure out: why the change in the first place?
-Peter
Peter et all,
Let me answer for Andy. When you say that you saw nothing wrong with the old board can I remind you of the week long indexing that used to take place, the constant crashes and the huge amounts of data that got lost along the way. Am I starting to sound defensive well yes I guess I am.
We have worked hard to bring you a forum that is easy to use, stable and most importantly reliable. O.K. there are some things that we have learned about the easy to use part and those are things that we could not have anticipated until you users came out and started using the boards in full force. But know this there is a large number of users that have adapted well and really enjoy these new forums that is what I want you all to be able to say.
Am I sorry that users have chosen to go elsewhere? Yes you bet, was that our intent? No way!
Are we working hard to make this forum easier to use for you all? Yes we certainly are. I am in the process of putting together some tutorials that will walk you through all aspects of using these forums, so when I get them done I ask that you take the time to go through them and really understand and be able to use these tools that we have provided.
Do I think that all of you have taken the time to learn and understand the tools that are available to you here? No I don't think a lot of you have, and I do firmly believe that some of the users that have "jumped ship" did so way to soon? Yes. All that I ask is that you try to work with the forums and if you have questions about how something works then ask. But please do so in the Sand box as that is the forum where I see the questions. I don't have a lot of time to be surfin through all of the forums looking for questions but I do monitor the Sandbox and answer the questions that are there.
And in case you missed my other post let me repeat some of it here.In a couple of weeks I am going to be going up to Prospero and with me I am going to be bringing the lists of requests that you have made, so in the meantime I am going to be making a new folder for forum suggestions ( I will be moving the threads already started on this topic) what I would like is very clear and concise feedback about what issues you have, please include with this some info about your setup, PC/Mac? IE/Netscape/other? Browser version? dialup/cable/dsl/other? This will help us greatly in understanding the problems and in developing solutions.
Thanks for listening...MarkSYSOP
Andy, Mark
Ok I understand you guys had problems with the WebX platform. But were any other platforms considered than Prospero?
Let me list a couple systems that have been used by some very active message board that I've been a member of for a couple years now. I think Taunton should highly consider one of these at least this type of format (if the Prospero agreement can be broken).
Ultimate Bulletin Board - http://www.infopop.com
Snitz Forums - http://forum.snitz.com
Scott R.
Edited 4/3/2002 7:32:39 PM ET by Scott R.
They say lightning dosen't strike twice. . .
Let's hope so. . .
mark... it's more than annoying.. it's also squirrely..click or double click or right click.. it doesn't matter.. you never know where it will decide to send you...
and the defaults still s uck...click on show messages "today" it'll show you one and then default to something else..
back arrow is like a trip to OZ...
hah, hah, hah... you gonna earn your money, son.. gud luk 2 u....
non illigitimi carborundumMike Smith
Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Peter, the reliability problems affected everyone. Several times, WebX was down for a day or more, it was regularly so slow as to be unusable, and it crashed once losing thousands of posts forever. Mark has an e-mail log with hundreds of complaints about WebX.
Believe me, I'm no fan of this new format either. I echo a lot of your complaints. But I know the people working to customize this forum, and they're people I trust to make it as good as it can become. Be patient, and continue to let us know your specific complaints so that we can take them to Prospero.
Andy Engel, Forum moderator
andy.. remember your spanish -american war history ... " a message to garcia" ?
let's start a thread " message to Prospero"...
ok... neva mindMike Smith
Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
They say lightning dosen't strike twice. . .
Let's hope so. . .
Hey Andy- You know what I just found out? Frank Lloyd Wright invented the back flush toilet! Yep, it was, at first, called a "cantilevered toilet." One day he was in a public restroom where it had all this type of toilet and the janitor was mopping up under them. Wright explained that he designed the toilet with just that convenience in mind. You should do an article about the residential use of the backflush toilet. They might be easier to install in a back-to-back setup (in adjoining rooms). I suppose they make a "water saver" version by now. How expensive are they, compared with the standard version? Are they being used much in residential construction, these days? You oughta find a residence that uses them and do an article on it. Show cross section drawing of installation.
All I know about backflush toilets is that they don't hang so good from thin-guage steel studs. And no, I just fixed it, didn't install it in the first place. Andy Engel, Forum moderator
Well, I know I'm vastly outnumbered here, but if you go to the threaded messages I sure do hope that we can have our choice. I can't stand that threaded stuff. Give it to me straight!
I still think the whole thing runs more slowly, both in terms of downloading and on my computer, than WebX did, and that is my only real complaint.
Rich Beckman
Rich, I'm with you on threaded. I never read the old board that way, which is really ironic because the software my company developed was an outliner. But fine if others like that on a forum.
What I've been wondering is...
What's the inherent difference be/t Breaktimers and Knotsers and Cooks, etc. As someone mentioned, the other forums aren't NEARLY as vocal or persistent about WebX v Prospero as many here. Neither is righter or wronger than the other, but I'm wondering if there's some demographic that explains the difference in reactions...
Inquiring minds wanna know.
Rich & Jim,
They say lightning dosen't strike twice. . .
Let's hope so. . .
Hi Joe,
I gots no problem with that being a choice. I've always been pro-choice (sorry, bad joke, just having fun with words). If nothing else, I'm convinced by George Carpenter's reminder that you need threads for limericks. Really, I've never had an issue with that being most people's top priority.
My question was more of a sociological one. Why are BTers more aggitated by this than Cooks or Knot-heads? Is their something unique to the carp genetic makeup? Or...?
I haven't yet thought of a logical explanation for this.
Cloud, I have thought about this a lot myself. I started thinking about this a long time ago when I noticed that Gatherings just never really develops serious momentum, from my perspective, at least. As a serious needle-person myself, I wondered why. If I just take myself as a test case, I would far rather sew, than talk about sewing. And yet, I enjoy talking about gardening just as much as I enjoy gardening. And I enjoy coming over here because I learn so darn much, and secondarily because it is so entertaining. Ditto for Cook's Talk. I speculated at one point early on in the changeover that gardeners adjusted well because gardening is all about taking what you have and trying to improve it, working with it, growing it. One Sprout said a lot about their attitude to the change with only one word, and their response mirrored the approach of the whole forum on the average, I thought. "Let's get on with it," in short. But on the other hand, many of you Breaktimers do the same thing. . . work with raw materials and skill to make something original, or something better. So that may be a weak explanation. The different forums do have their different cultures and demographics, for sure. I don't know that being computer savvy tells a complete story, either, because I am certainly a computer novice myself.
Interesting line of thought.
If, instead of talking to your plants, you yelled at them, would they still grow, only to be troubled and insecure?
One thing that might differ is the percentage of professionals. I wonder if Breaktime has a higher percentage of posters who make their living at homebuilding than Sprout off has posters who make their living gardening for example?
That'd be an interesting survey to do and correlation to pursue, Jim.
If, instead of talking to your plants, you yelled at them, would they still grow, only to be troubled and insecure?
Old German perspective: Ach Well!
I recall I didn't like switching from windows 3.1 to 95 at work, now 2000 seems slow. New board format seems OK once adaptation starts kicking in.
Cloud, I think Andy mentioned that we are the biggest complainers, and I thought “What the hell”. For the most part, everyone has been giving advice on how to use the new software, and voicing constructive criticism in order to make this place better. Why are we the most vocal? I think most of us here don’t bang nails for a living, we solve problems. Are we supposed to adjust to inferiority? Should we care so little for this site that we roll over? Not a chance guy, and good to the Breaktime bunch for making the biggest wave, because there is no doubt that something is very wrong. Maybe I am way off, maybe this forum just has more traffic. Ok, maybe we are a bunch of whiners, sue me.
I don’t doubt for a second that Taunton had everyone’s best interests in mind when they made this change, and I am equally sure that they will do everything they can to make things work. I also have no doubt that we are stuck with this software. So what to do…go to the Sandbox and work with them. There have been many good suggestions so far, but they are spread all over the place, do Sys a favor and put them where they can do some good. You can hack any software, and I think the changes that are needed are not all that difficult. What needs to be done on the technical side? I dunno, because Prospero has no online history, they have no support, they don’t even bother to provide a help link.
I miss Webx, Webx was a friend, and you Prospero are no Webx. We WILL make this place better, (for free, no cost to Prospero), Mark will write a tutorial, (for free, no cost to Prospero), and we Will get over this. Prospero sux, (see Joe, you just have to work around everything), but the people here make the site, and the software will not change that.
Hmmm, here's another thought. The cooks are more female, and have never posted as prolifically as y'all here. I think a large majority want threads, or at least, that option--but not to force it on anyone. It s/b a pref. Maybe you guys are a bit more assertive than we are--gosh, limericks have gone to h e ll.
And this is a guess, but most guys I know don't get together w/male friends as often as women do w/female friends. I think this forum is probably one of the more convenient places to hang w/da guys, so, it's poss all the changes are harder to adjust to--seein' as how the old way (living rooms w/chairs in a circle) was just more friendly than non-threaded + frames (they move the furniture--w/you in it every few moments). Su cks.
Personally, and I may have said this before, but I know when I'm outganged and have to learn new aspects of existing s/w at work daily, so I'm used to it. Many of the cooks are posting less. Always a trip to find out where I land after posting.
Always a trip to find out where I land after posting.
And I couldn't find this post again until I left and came back.
"If nothing else, I'm convinced by George Carpenter's reminder that you need threads for limericks."
"gosh, limericks have gone to h e ll."
It may be true that limericks work better in threaded format, but the current situation does not constitute evidence of this. The last few times limericks were tried on the WebX platform, they flopped big time. Too many people participated that had no idea what a limerick is supposed to look/sound like. You can't blame Prospero on the inability to maintain a decent limerick thread, we were already failing before the change.
Rich Beckman
It seems like many of the Breaktimers view themselves as partners with Taunton in this forum, while in the other forums the participants view themselves more as guests of Taunton. This may well have something to do with Jim's suggestion that more of the participants at Breaktime are professionals who make their living in this field.
Since there was little or no pre-release user testing of the new format, it feels like the change was done "to" us instead of "with" us. If a person sees themselves as a partner, then this was a betrayal.
Builders/carpenters/craftsmen are used to being in charge of their project. There are right and wrong ways to do things, and the b/c/c's who come here by definition are the ones who are seeking the right ways. When a b/c/c messes up, the consequences are great: costly and even dangerous. The consequences of messing up a recipe or having landscape die or not getting the right fit in a garment are usually not nearly so severe. So it makes sense that the forum particpants at Breaktime are more intense about their subject, and feel a sense of authority that the other forum participants may not feel so strongly.
But this changeover has not allowed for them to have any power over the project and has not, seemingly, been done "right". So they are reacting more vocally and having a much harder time accepting what they see a failed project.
At this point, it seems like the suggestion that if one or two of the major complaints were addressed very, very quickly (like threads, please!), maybe the people who are most frustrated would be more willing to believe that other changes will also happen, and that it might be possible that in the long run this change will have been for the better.
Climbing down off her soapbox, she picks it up and takes it to the laundry room, throws it at the mountain of dirty laundry that lies in wait, ready to attack, and then makes a quick break for the kids' bathroom where her finishing sander lies next to the recently patched door trim."A completed home is a listed home."
Breaktimers view themselves as partners with Taunton in this forum
You're getting close Lisa. The difference is the profession. The unique thing about FHB and Breaktime is the union bet the contractors getting their reputations out there and homeowners looking for such. Not everybody, but definately for me. There is a business thing here, a market if you will, and Prospero has crippled it (for the time being). The builders, who rightly credit themselves for the content, don't like that and are saying so.
Helen
This is an interesting line of discussion why only Breaktime members are having difficulty with this new format.
I would also like to add we are production people and our lively hoods depend on quality tools. If a tool fails to perform as expected it gets taken out of service or replaced because it slows production. No craftsman in their right mind would keep using a dull saw blade in hopes that it will start cutting better soon.
Also new tools that initially prove difficult to use are destined to forever collect dust. As an example I know a carpenter that purchased an expensive router, at the outset found it clumsy and awkward compared to the old router. Now the new one never sees the light of day because he doesn't like it. Just about every carpenter/builder has run across a tool like that. That's just the way we are.
This bulletin board is just another tool.
Scott R.
I think this whole frickin forum oughta get back flushed, front flushed and pitched in the burn pile. This is post number three from me, I check in once a week and the same crap is here. This is the first complaint I've made about this new forum because I'm one of the folks that just went away.
You computer geeks need to understand that it's not bells and whistles we want, it's intuitive simplicity. You can cram your FAQ's where the sun don't shine cause I'm not into the high art of forum software, I'm into exchanging information and having a giggle or two.
Sysops, I'll continue checking in from time to time but you have lost me as a regular participant and this is the worst forum I've seen. Had I not had roots here I'd have never returned and the times I look in here are growing fewer and fewer.
Lee
Hey Lee,
What's going on at Knots? I'd check it out, but I'm afraid I might not find my way back.
Are the Knots folks as pissed as we are?
Ed.
I don't know, Ed. I spend as much time there as I do here, nearly none.
I'm out of here for a week or so.
Lee
I'll take a stab at it. Carpenters, craftsmen, tradesmen, etc. are straight up,straight forward,straight at you, practical minded, a little rough around the edges, not too artsy-fartsy, (I'm only stereotyping for discussion purposes), I could go on, but you get the picture.
Cooking is like chemistry and art, but delicious. Clothing and fabrics is definitly closer to fine arts; and gardening, although it involves the most basic elements, is almost zen-like in its effect on people who enjoy it. Definitly in the art category.
This sight requires patience(at least more than I have), an aptidude for computers(at least more than I have), and an appreciation for the indirect, the circuitous, the mystery of the unknown, the subtle(OK maybe I'm getting a little deep here).
It needs to be easy, intuitive, staight forward; it needs to NOT require a tutorial to use.
I guess maybe those cooks, tailors, and gardeners are just smarter than me. ;-)
John
John Svenson, Builder, Remodeler, NE Ohio (Formerly posted as JRS)
I can't find the sandbox, did they leave it at the other site. honest , where is it?
Here>>>
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-thesandbox/start
I have a backflusher in my basement bath. I don't know about it being easier for back to back installs, unless they make a bracket to hang both on. Price is expensive when you add the bracket cost. Mine was around $700, and it only came in white. You also need at least 2x6 walls to hang them on, I believe.
Mugsy- I don't think I'd try a backflush on any other kind of wall except masonry. I doubt F.LL.W. would have used them in a stud wall. Other than the high cost and one color only, you probably are happy with the backflusher. I would think these could be bought used, fairly reasonable.