Any of you have to go after a contractor before? I haven’t, but am looking at the possibility of it now.
He owed over 20,000 paid down to 11,000 in January then nothing till now. He typed up a promissary note stating the amount and a deadline for the said amount. And in the case of default he pays court costs.
I sat down with my lawyer this week because the note expired last week. He says that this is going to be a walk in the park due to the fact I made it a promissary note. He ran an asset check and the contractor has almost nothing in his name. A beat up Jeep a couple of quads and a few lakefront lots.
THese assets can be taken over as payment if I understand my lawyer correctly. Which the lots would be great.
The contractor filed bankruptcy a few years prior to me meeting him due to a fatality on one of his jobs. And if I remember right my lawyer says he can’t claim it again for years. So repossesion is my only hope if the money doesn’t show up.
I have no idea how he got occupancy for these homes when I never signed lien waivers. I never got paid. The title company let one go here. I called them numerous times to let them know. Maybe I wasn’t ever on the paper work to them. I don’t know.
If any of you have been in this situation what can I expect? How long does it take? With it being a promissary note I can’t imagine he would fight it at all. It’s just going to cost him more money with my lawyer.
Matt
Replies
Eleven grand is pretty cheap for a lakefront lot.
Unless it has toxic waste buried there!
;)
Other than being a smartass, I can't answer your questions - just go with what your lawyer recommends. I agree the promissary note gives you a leg up on this deal.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
attorneys always paint a rosy view ....
i ended up paying 10k to collect 20k, which the Bank then burned me out of, 'cause the Bank has the FIRST Lien rights in NYSso ......i ended up 30,000$ In The Hole
effin' ... Fantastic ... EH ..??and the attorneys just played .. dumb ...
i meant to say ... the Attorneys played ... dumb ...those cocsukkers
I could be wrong but what my lawyer said is I can get the land at taxable value. He has 6 lots taxable at 39,000.
One thing the asset check said about the lots that I didn't quite get was Grantee: then his name. Not sure what that means, maybe someone can let me know.
Matt
" Grantor & Grantee DefinitionsThe Grantor is any person conveying or encumbering, whom any Lis Pendens, Judgments, Writ of Attachment, or Claims of Separate or Community Property shall be placed on record.The Grantor is the seller (on deeds), or borrower (on mortgages). The Grantor is usually the one who signed the document.The Grantee is the buyer, recipient, new owner, or lien holder.When "vs." appears on legal documents, the Grantor is on the bottom, the Grantee is on the top. Petitioner is the Grantee; Respondent is the Grantor."http://www.co.jefferson.wa.us/auditor/recording/GrantorGranteeDefinitions.aspSo his name would be on the deed when he acquired them as the Grantee. If he had mortaged then it would also be on the deed of trust (and I assume mortgage where used) as grantor where he Grants the bank lien rights to the property."I have no idea how he got occupancy for these homes when I never signed lien waivers. I never got paid. The title company let one go here. I called them numerous times to let them know. Maybe I wasn't ever on the paper work to them. I don't know. "Lien waivers only tell them that no liens will be filed. I have no idea, but it might have even been that past the time limit to have filed liens by the time that the sale closed. So lein waviers had not value in that case.In any case you should have file a lien. That puts them on notice and if they had closed without clearing them the title insurance would have been paying..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
"I could be wrong but what my lawyer said is I can get the land at taxable value. He has 6 lots taxable at 39,000.I could be wrong but what my lawyer said is I can get the land at taxable value. He has 6 lots taxable at 39,000."Laws do vary. But I don't see you getting the property unless guy ends up voluntary agreeing swap a lot for the value of the note.What could be typically done is that the court puts a lien on then and orders a sale.They would be sold at the "court house steps" one by one until enough money is collected to satisfy the judgement. Any excess will go to him (after expenses).Of course if you wanted a lot you could start the bidding at $11,000.That is typically what banks do at foreclosure. Start the biding at the outstanding value of the note. If other people thing that the property is worth more then they will start biding it up and the bank walks away with cash.If not they end up buying the home..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
I wish you well.... I have collected less than 5% of what i have ever been screwed out of... and that is a large enough number that if i had it I could most likely retire...
so bad that my cpa once told me...
"son if they can't screw you they need to get out of the screw'n business"
most forms of bankruptcy were invented here (Memphis) I have never gotten a penny from a bankruptcy... even when many of these people were living far beter than me... I did once refuse to return a car and boat i repo'd when the court told me to return it because the people had filed bankruptcy... the court ordered me to return it even with my paperwork that said i owned it free and clear BEFORE they filed... finally found a lawyer that saw/read the law like it did... and I did not return them... still have that boat... :)
you can file bankruptcy again just can't file the same type... ie chapter 7, 11, 13... not sure which is which but once any are filed you aren't getting squat...
what i do like to do... costs me about a grand is... make my lawyer take a deposition where they ask for every financial record,taxreturns, bank records, every asset, even down to a count on loose change... this might not get you squat... but if they lie.... then thats purgery (sp)? they are under oath... and then it becomes criminal... I make em ask for everything during the time frame the debt occured which might cover years... it's a ton of work for them to produce all the documentation so in a few cases they have offered to settle or just found a way to pay up... i might be even on lawyer fees and what i've gotten...
just for the record... i have never gone after anything from people who just screwed up, had a loss or medical situation... if i know they have nothing I don't mess with em.. stuff happens ... but if they are A-holes, live'n large, ect... I at least attempt to get my money... a guy now who claims to have ZIP has his kids in private schools, gives 10k a year to his church, and house much better than mine and cars alot better than mine... claims he can't pay me... offers 3k on a 50k+ expenses debt... I'll fight that one forever... way i look at that is... his church is getting my money
ok guess i just needed to vent
P
good luck
Venting is also a good thing to hear Pony. I have been screwed by this fairly bad. I have let alot of small things fall through the cracks over the years I have done work for him, the amount I am going after him for is small in comparison to what I am owed in principal.
He lives high on the hog right now. A big house that I built for him, in a sub division that only wealthy people can afford. The taxes alone are more than I can afford.
He had knee surgery months ago, never skipped a beat or lost anything. He still has his big house and nice cars. All payed for with my money no doubt. That was one of the reasons for the note. To give him time to recover and get my money around. I do have a heart, problems happen to good people.
But I do not want to let this go. I have run into my own problems lately, my wives car and mine have taken 3,000 in the last month alone to keep on the road. Not to mention my own major health problem that has just surfaced. I am looking at a lenghty time not being able to work. This will not be an option unless I can make this money surface.
Another option given to me was garnishing wages, I know who he is subbing from now and I can garnish what the courts see fit.
Matt
I too... let way too much go.... kinda go on the it's a "round world theory" and that they will get theirs...
does suck to see those that don't pay live'n better than those that do...
I don't know if the dude is heartless or not... and don't know what terms you are on with him... but in my experience once a lawyer is involved... people get real defensive... might be better to appeal to his sense of fairness... talk to his wife ... it might get you some type payments anyway...
I hate see'n anyone get screwed... most of the time i'm in a position that my kids are being fed and we aren't hurt'n so i just let things slide... not that anyone i can remember has let me slide
again good luck
p
I have been on good terms with this guy since I met him. I considered us friends. He trusted me enough to give me an open account at any yard in town and never questioned what I was ordering for his jobs.
The guy is not heartless, he acknowledges that he owes me the money and says he wants to pay me. He sounds sincere about it. But he just doesn't have it.
I would probably let it go and make him sign another one for a little more but my back is up against the wall.
It could be worse though. That 11,000 is all money owed to me, I owe no one anything out of it. The guys and suppliers that helped me make that money all are paid in full. At least I am free and clear in that aspect.
Matt
"The guy is not heartless, he acknowledges that he owes me the money and says he wants to pay me. He sounds sincere about it. But he just doesn't have it. "My instinct from the things you have said about him and the fact that he acknowledges debt and signed the promissary is that he will come up with the cash once you use the lawyer to apply a little strong arm.
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How'd this get out of the Tavern?
Matt
"How'd this get out of the Tavern?"It is a good general business type of discussion.It does not need to be in the tavern.Appranetly someone from Taunton that was monitor the g-a-y thread saw it and moved it..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
nothing like getting kicked out of the tavern with a worthwhile informative post. <G>
I put it there figuring people had better things to read about on the regular forum.
This is a very odd situation, who gets a GC to sign a personal note admitting a debt? Not anything I had ever heard of. Thats why I put it in the tavern.
Matt
>who gets a GC to sign a personal note admitting a debt?<
That makes me think it's 1 of 2 things he's trying to do.
1. He's honest and really wants to pay what is owed you.
2. It's a delay tactic to get you off his back 'til he can dump the porperties or get them 'sold' to a family member.
Either case I don't hink you should wait too long to move on this. Get a ttitle search done ont he property to be sure it's celary his and then take it, get more to cover the lawyers.
I know he's honest, I framed houses for 4 years for him. The relationship would have ended much earlier if I didn't think he was honest. I am not a crook and won't work for someone I think is one.
It's become a matter now of I need my money, I don't want to do this. I don't want any of his stuff as payment either.
I have moved on this, he should be getting served any day now, then we'll see if his tune has changed.
Matt
I know he's honest, I framed houses for 4 years for him. The relationship would have ended much earlier if I didn't think he was honest. I am not a crook and won't work for someone I think is one.
As all the mutual fund disclaimers say--Past performance is no guarantee of future results. Things happen and people change--not overnight--can be so gradual that you don't really notice until something goes wrong.
Think about all the child molesters, people who flip out and kill a bunch of folks--what you frequently hear from their neighbors (as reported on the news)--"Never would have thought...seemed like such a nice guy...really surprised...active in our church/community...."
This is not to say that this guy has crossed the line--he might very well be working hard to get everything squared away. But the fact that he's trying to hide his ownership of various properties tells me he's taken the first step towards "the dark side". Maybe being served papers on your promisory note will wake him up and get him squared away. But don't be overly surprised if a totally different person emerges. People on the dark side have a different perspective on what's right and wrong.
I knew my parents for 44 years--they raised me, taught me many of my values, very active in church and community--major shock to find out how far they had moved from what they had taught me.
Hope for the best--prepare for the worst.
Kathleen
Hope for the best--prepare for the worst.
That's the reason for putting things in a trust, corporation or other entity (name). It's just a smart business move. I"ve been busted and I'm not going there again. Even tho I now have a good lawyer & much better contracts & procedures I'm not taking that chance. It sounds like the builder in question did what he did to cover his ASSets. NO question that he owes it & whatever means neede to collect should be taken. BUt I just don't see that as a reflection of being shady.
Yo..whats this you can't work ? Did i miss sumpthin or is it a private matter?
I hope you are OK.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
I still can work but it's not easy. And the fix requires surgery that would put me out for a while. 6 months minimum. And financially it's not an option unless I can settle up with him.
It doesn't affect me much in doing my normal job, but if it requires alot of moving like walking or climbing ladders thats when the pain kicks in.
The pain meds (vicoprofen) makes me sick. So I can't take them. They make me feel out of it anyway. So I just grin and bear it.
But all is well for now and thanks for the kind words. It'll take more than what I am going through now to keep me from doing what I love to do.
Matt
I hear ya. It does suck when so called elective surgery is not really that elective. BTDT.
I don't know I did it when my ankle was trashed last year..but something about this nasty need for paying bills and buying food, must have been an incentive.
Glad you are not laid up...go after the guy. It's your money, wring it out him.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
Stilleto,
I'm just now catching up on this thread. Regarding the Vicoprofen making you sick....Vicoprofen is simply ibuprofen (Motrin) mixed with hydrocodone (Vicodin). Everybody in the world can make hydrocodone mixed with Tylenol (acetaminophen) so there's no money to be made. They cook up this new mixture so it has a patent and higher profit margins. If you wanted to invent a pill to make people nauseated then Vicoprofen would top the list.
If you really want to you can take regular Vicodin and then Motrin separately. A lot of narcotics make people sick. Ask your doctor for a different one.
Codeine makes a lot of people nauseated ( nauseous btw means you make other people sick, not that you feel like puking ). Codeine is turned into morphine by your liver. Codeine itself has no pain relieving properties. But I digress. Sorry for the hijack.
Thanks MG, I asked the doctor about a new prescription and they said that the ibuprofen helps with the inflammation. So I am kind of in a pinch.
I started taking half of one pill at a time and that has made the nausea go away. The full doses are the ones that make me sick.
Regular vicodin wouldn't do much for the issues I am having they say. So I adapted to what they say is right for me.
Matt
I like lawyers even less than your run of the mill thieves, I dont file liens, or threaten them, I just remind them of what God say"s, "be not decieved, whatsoever a man soweth that shall he also reap". They are cursed with a curse for theft, I forgive them and go on, God seems to bless me for forgiveness and I let him keep score.
Man I very much agree... 90% of the time... I'm not even mad when someone has done the best they can and failed... I've never gone after them for a cent... It's usually (always) my fault for letting them get so far behind in payments to me... any past one is my fault... no good deed goes unpunished...
but... if god is kind enough to let me catch a thief... whatever happens is his will... watched my cameras today where a guy jumped my 8ft fence and stole all the tools out of my truck bed box... 520 in the afternoon on sunday... cameras are only good enough to watch.... not like i could print a picture off the image... at least i know it's no one i know... but if god was to find a way for me to catch the guy going over the fence... i could make sure it was the last fence the guy jumped...
p
When my good buddy rides up on his new Harley but with nothing but a sad story for me, kinda pizzes me off.
Knew him for 30 years, haven't seen him since that day.
It really pizzed me off, and I should have known better anyway.
Joe H
Ponytl,
Man you need a pair of guard dogs over there.
ANDYSZ2WHY DO I HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO FRIENDS AND FAMILY THAT BEING A SOLE PROPRIETOR IS A REAL JOB?
REMODELER/PUNCHOUT SPECIALIST
it's memphis u expect it...
you ever notice in those cheap snap blade knives you get an extra blade? i bought like 10 cases of em 5 yrs ago... think they were like 12cents each... anyway i keep a case around... we grab a new one anytime we can't find the last one we opened.. BUT it comes with an extra blade... i had this bin i'd toss em into... think i've used one in 2 yrs... but had like 20 extra blades...like 4" long... easy to snap em into 3/4" peices...
so today i spent a few min... glue'n these to the back side of the posts where my visitor has been jump'n my 8ft fence (11ft posts with barbed wire on it)... i'm just guess'n (wish'n) he makes that jump to grab that post to pull himself over... would be hard for his hand not to land were at least 5 blades are... not like he can reach where the blades are he'll have to jump & grab for his hand hold...
at least i'll have a trail to follow...
the fence is posted keep out... high voltage... stay back... that hasn't worked... but should be enough of a warning that he shouldn't be try'n to jump it...
p
Yeah Memphians you gotta love them.
I'm telling you though serious mean rotreillers deters 98% of thieves in this town.
Did you decide to lease or sell?
Reason I asked is you may have to include security as part of your maintenance fees.
ANDYSZ2
WHY DO I HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO FRIENDS AND FAMILY THAT BEING A SOLE PROPRIETOR IS A REAL JOB?
REMODELER/PUNCHOUT SPECIALIST
Putting up the blades is a bad idea. If the guy cuts himself on those blades and ends up in a hospital, you could be charged with setting a man trap, and the system will turn _you_ into the bad guy. Since you actually own stuff and have money in the bank, more than a few lawyers will offer to help him sue your a$$ off. It's fun to think about, but don't do it.Here is an example from http://www.askthelawguy.info/ask2/2006.01.01_arch.html :"A friend put fish hooks under his dash, to prevent his stereo from being stolen again. Sure enough about 2 days later he came out and found a man with his hand stuck under his dash. (He was trying to steal the stereo). When the police came, they arrested the man, and then they arrested my friend for setting up a "Man Trap". Can they do this??
We don't have a similar law in North Carolina, but in general it is not legal to booby-trap your property to prevent theft. I don't have any sympathy for the stereo thief, but real life is not "Home Alone." A person who set a trap could be sued by the injured person or prosecuted for assault. There are numerous cases where a person rigged a gun to shoot any intruder and when an intruder was killed, the owner had serious legal problems. Booby-traps are illegal because (in the case of a gun) the person setting it is effectively imposing a death sentence on someone just for housebreaking.
I hope your friend can avoid a conviction, but he needs to find another way to defend his stereo."
Remember that a jury can refuse to convict. I'd almost like to take my chances with a jury when it comes to presenting the defendant against me.
"Remember that a jury can refuse to convict. I'd almost like to take my chances with a jury when it comes to presenting the defendant against me."Evidence of the thief's intent to commit a crime might not be allowed at your trial, so all the jury might hear is that some poor fellow was injured by your booby trap. And at $250 to $1000 an hour for a criminal defense lawyer, just how much are you willing to spend to make a point?In the real world our legal system chews people up and spits them out. You are much better to stay far, far away from it if at all possible.
Bill thanks alot for the descriptions of terms and conditions I was confused about.
My note says 11,000 and court costs. My lawyer also has 5% interest a month added to it from the signing of the note back in February. Not like Woodway says 11,000 minus court costs. No matter what I get my 11,000 + interest and anything above that goes to my lawyer for his work.
Small Claims has a limit of 3,000 here I believe. So that was not a realistic option for me.
The title company situation here goes like this, the contractor submits a list of subs and amounts for each phase of their job. It's based on 4-5 draws over the length of each home.
So I would be listed as framing, siding and anything else I did. The contractor puts in for a draw and after the work is okayed by the title company a check is issued to the contractor along with lien waivers stating that the listed subs have been paid.
Then the contractor hands the waivers back to the title company showing everyone was paid. He must have listed himself in the areas I did the work or forged my signature on the waivers.
If either is true his is also in deep #### with the state and title company, both will go after him in a criminal case for this.
The time table described to me go like this. He is served papers and has 21 days to respond to them. If he doesn't respond he is found in default and given 21 days to appeal. If no appeal is filed then payment is due one way or another. Money of repossesion. He mentioned the deputy sheriff being very good at making people find their money.
Once again thanks Bill. Your advice so far has been very helpful. Anything else is welcome.
Matt
"My note says 11,000 and court costs. "If it litteraly just says court cost then that is very limited to filing fees and the like.Now if it says collection cost or attorney's fee then that is a different story.And state laws and customs might define "court cost" different.I ran in to that once. I rented an airplane hanger from a state university. They came out with this rediculous lease and I would not sign it until my insurance company approved it. One of the problems was that they worded is so piss-poorly that litterally if there was an accident at the airport that I could not sue ANYONE. Another was that the lease required prepayment at the university business office. But they where not setup to take the money. I tried.So when I did not sign the lease they tried to evict me and the papers had a court fee clause in it. I ask an attorney, that also happened to rent a hanger at the airport and told me that it was just the file fee cost and not their attorney fee's. That attorney happened to be fishing buddies with the sheriff. And he reminded the sheriff that it was not his duty to deliver summons. So the attorney volunteered to return it to the court house (where it happended to end up at the bottom of a very big stack)."The title company situation here goes like this, the contractor submits a list of subs and amounts for each phase of their job. It's based on 4-5 draws over the length of each home. So I would be listed as framing, siding and anything else I did. The contractor puts in for a draw and after the work is okayed by the title company a check is issued to the contractor along with lien waivers stating that the listed subs have been paid. Then the contractor hands the waivers back to the title company showing everyone was paid. He must have listed himself in the areas I did the work or forged my signature on the waivers. "Ok, that makes sense. the way htat I had read it that you where talking about at closing where it was sold to the resident. But still filing a lien at that point should have gotten attention..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
The note says: In case of default ____ Agrees to pay all costs related to the collection of this debt including reasonable attorney fees.
Sounds pretty clear to me. But like you say the laws may be a different story.
He should get served the papers this week, I am sure this is going to get interesting after that. Maybe he'll find his checkbook then.
Matt
I've have nothing intelligent to offer then these are situations where shot guns and hog farms come into play.
Well that and a quad can be fun...
Can you check to see if there are liens against the lakefront properties? Seems pretty likely that they'd be mortgaged to the max.
As far as I can tell on the asset report there were no liens. Alot of the things on the list had a lender or a lien on them. It looked to me like they were clean.
Matt
The money here is chump change to the lawyer. Don't even talk to one, take it to small claims yourself, save the cost of the lawyer and let the court work for you on this one. They will advise on steps to file and even to collect if possible. If the guy owns a house or other assets then you should be able to get max $7500 sooner or later. Sounds like he's collection proof though, from your description. Bankrupt and owns just a couple of vehicles, but those vacant lots would be fair game to my way of thinking. Sometimes life kicks you in the teeth and this may be one of those moments.
Go to "NOLO" press, Google it, they have information on taking someone to small claims court. Cheap self-help books and advice in the legal field.
Edited 9/1/2007 10:12 pm by woodway
Thanks I'll check the website out.
He can't file bankruptcy again so I think he screwed himself. Anything in his name is fair game if I understood my lawyer.
Talking about this has me thinking, if he doesn't have the money the lawyer costs in reality come out of my pocket. SOB, not cool.
Matt
The cost of a lawyer makes the whole thing fly. Take it to court yourself and with the documents you have on hand, you'll win the whole amount and you keep every last cent. Say your lawyer goes to court and wins the $9000 for you. Their standard fee is 33%, that's $2970 off the top and you get $6030 in your pocket. That's if the lawyer even takes it. If he/she is going to file in court, prepare and go to court for $2970 and really work hard on your case, you're dreaming. They might file some papers and drink some coffee on your dime (dollars) but they've got serious money on other cases much more important then yours. On the other hand, if you show up with a solid and completely winnable case against, say Bill Gates or Opra Winfrey, and it's for $100,000 to $500,000 then your going to get some serious attention. For that you get not only the attorney's attention, they'll buy you coffee and sit down and console you too. A lawyer friend of mine laid it out for me this way, " Tell you what S****e, you give me $5000 now and I'll win your case for you in court and when the judgement comes in I'll send the check for $6500 to your home address."
"Say your lawyer goes to court and wins the $9000 for you. Their standard fee is 33%, that's $2970 off the top and you get $6030 in your pocket."That is not STANDARD.It is used in some cases, typically for personal injuries.A case like this would be based on the straight hourly rates, plus expenses.And most lawyers are out working on contingnecy cases or even going to court. Only the ones that advertise on TV regular work on contingnecy..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
That is not STANDARD.
It is used in some cases, typically for personal injuries.
A case like this would be based on the straight hourly rates, plus expenses.
That's not standard, either. There really is no standard. There are some common arrangements, though, but they often vary by local custom.
Around here, the "standard" for civil cases is 25% to file and settle out of court (which is the most common result), 33% if it goes to court.
For a relatively small amount like this ($10K is small to an attorney), a minimum fee is likely to be set, probably in the $5K range.
That is totally wrong thinking!I don't fix my truck myself because I don't read codes and don't5 know enough about mechanizing and don't like it.I don't do plumbing DIY because every time I have done so, I manage to make a leak.And I get called by DIY homeowners regularly to fix their FUs!Why would I want to do my own lawyering?
And words is something I am pretty good at. I wrote a deed once and my lawyer reviewed it for me and complimented me on it.
YTwice I have written letters to lawyers and had them ask me "Where did you go to school?" in a complimentary way, one of them a neighbor who thought I might have spent time in law school but just never pursued the bar, based on my sentence structure and way of thinking.But for something this expensive, I would never want an ammature handling it. On the fees - this lawyer can get a judgement for th eamount due PLUS legal fees. There is no need for that to come out oif his own pocket.So he gets his ten grand or whatever
PLUS fair interest on the amount
PLUS legal fees and court costs.So th ejudgement comes to say fifteen grand and change.
Th eLakefront lot is worth 39grandForced sale to cover or take in satisfaction thereof...then sell it, or borrow against it while the lot appreciates in value, pay off the lawyer from those proceeds, and invest the rest, making payments on the loan from the investment...In any case, the debtor pays the fees and the lawyer one way or the other, so he should use the pro, instead of taking a chance on screwing it up by doing a DIY lawsuit. There are too many places he can trip up.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
heh, heh, heh...... you said ammature.... i bet you meant armature, huh ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I'd love to know how to spell the word that means a non-professional. Couldn't even find it in the spell-checker.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
You have to watch those AMATURE english teachers from RI.You had it much closer than Smith.Armature makes no sense at all. At least to anyone outside of RI..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
hey a-hole, who said we had to make cents ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
. . . . and closer we get with the amateur spelling bee!
I wondered how many posts I'd read before someone actually got it right...;o)
Yeh... That'll work.
as rez would say - "Definitely";)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I'd love to know how to spell the word that means a non-professional
Depending on the degree of non-professuional, you could spell it "hack""Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
First of all the amount that you can win through SC courts varies. IIRC some are as low as $3000 so it might "cost too much" to go that route.But in a case like this even if he could get the full amount in SC it probably is not an advantage to doing so.With the promissory note the contractor does not have much of any defence. He can show that he has paid it off, try and claim that it was not his signature and that is about it. So the whole thing is probably less than an hour.Now if he did not have the note then there could be all kind of claims, that the work was not done to standards, that it was more than what was contracted for, etc, etc.But if he goes to SC court all he gets is a judgement and he still have to collect.Not sure, but to force the sale of real property he probably still needs to go to "big court"..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Your probably right. But he's only got a few options the way I see it. Option 1--- appeal to the guys human side and tell him a sad story, maybe he'll feel guilty and pay up.Option 2--- Take the guy to court himself and recover damages, maybe get the court to assign a deputy sheriff to apply a little persuasion to recover damages. Either way, at least he's TRIED to make a recovery of money owed to him. Opps! Option 3--- Forget the whole thing now and kiss the final payment good bye. Count it up toward a tuition fee for a lesson in life.
Actually getting a judgement, even in small claims ( sounds like the amount might be too much for some small claims courts anyway) might be the absolute worst thing he could do. It will probably just strengthen the deadbeats resolve not to pay. Many judgements are uncollectible any way.
Probably best to talk to a law firm that specializes in collections. They can be pretty persuasive sometimes in talking money out of deadbeats.
"What's an Arkansas flush?......It's a small revolver and any five cards."
Trouble is, a law firm won't talk to anyone unless there's money on the table first. There are no free clinics in that area of law and when it's all said and done, he still is faced with collecting. The $9000 is too much to recover in small claims but he could try to recover the max allowed and leave the rest on the table. At least he walks away with the satisfaction of trying. There is one other option. He could do something like threaten the guy or pull a gun, whatever, but then he's likely going to spend time taking showers with a lot of other guys and wearing pink underwear. And still gets nothing but pain and suffering.
You have a very negative attitude about the value of a lawyers services.
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I'm not at all negative about lawyers.I think they're doing a job that needs to be done, most of the time, I'm just not quick to get one when the dollar amount isn't there. As far as being your own lawyer, there's a time and place for doing it yourself and for $9,000 that, to me, is the time. Small claims was set up for just that reason, so the small cases can be cleared without tying up the courts. A lawyer gets to pretend he/she is a judge and the litigants get to pretend they're lawyers and it speeds up the whole process. True, he won't get the whole amount since small claims judgements are limited to $7500, but it's something. If you get a lawyer by the hour, that's going to be 4 to 6 hours minimum, I would think, and at $250 to $350/ hour, that's a significant money commitment without assurance of getting a better result then what you would get doing it yourself. As the dollar value of the action increases then the value of getting a lawyer involved increases, that's got to be weighed in the decision to seek professional counsel. Cost vs. potential gain. Counsel representation in this case is only worth an additional $1500 and could cost more.
There might be some logic in what you say. But you are ignore several specific details that are know about this." True, he won't get the whole amount since small claims judgements are limited to $7500, but it's something."No, it is limited to $3000 in his state and that is a not much.There are two issues in the risk reward discussion.One the probablity of winning. In this cases it is 99.999%. His only defense would be that he has paid it and would need receipts, checks, etc. Or that his signature was forged.The other is the probability of collecting the judgement. That is often a problem, but they have identied property with the value to satisfy the judgement. And, most likely has to go "big court" to force the sale."Say your lawyer goes to court and wins the $9000 for you. Their standard fee is 33%, that's $2970 off the top and you get $6030 in your pocket"And you where claiming the the lawyer would get 33%, but I see that yo have changed that.So I agree with Piffin.Now in some cases, for a $9000 claim then going to SC court might make sense. But this ain one of them..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
There are a lot of collection law firms that will take cases that involve around $10,000 on a contigency basis.
"What's an Arkansas flush?......It's a small revolver and any five cards."
There is a limit to what you can file for in small claims court. Often only five grand, so he might be giving up a lot right off the top.There really ARE a lot of lawyers who will work for a decent price.
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i do hope it works out for you, Every time i had something like this and it looked easy there was always something that came up to make it very hard.
While the legal details vary from place to place, you ought to have at least three options which you can exercise.
The first is, courtesy of your license, to lien work you have done. It won't necessarily get you payment ... but it will greatly complicate things for him until you do. Apart from interfering with his selling the properties, it will prevent his selling them. The lien will also make it much harder for him to get financing.
Then there is the idea of suing, and getting a judgment against him. If you can get anything near the amount from Small Claims court, it would likely be the smart choice.
Once you have the judgment, you ask for the court to have 'supplemental proceedings,' where you quiz him as to his assets. This information will be used to help collect on the judgment.
For this stage, it is advisable to hire a PI to research the guy; these agencies are pretty good at unraveling sham transactions (intended to conceal ownership). Chances are, the guy has been buying houses in his mothers' name, etc.
Finally, there is your Contractors' Board. By not paying you, he is in violation of those laws. While the Board really is not a debt collector, they can revoke his license, pay you from his bond, and even file criminal charges.
If your lawyer has not discussed all three of these actions with you, you need a better lawyer.
I think my lawyer is doing a good job. He told me of those options. He has 21 days to reply to the papers that he is served, if he doesn't then I get a judgement. Then he has 21 days to appeal, if no appeal then payment is due. If not in the form of money then a deputy sheriff will gladly remove some of his belongings.
I can't lien the homes I did work on because time has expired. I have a set window to file a lien and I was still getting payments from him when that window was open.
My lawyer ran an asset check, it's about 10 pages long listing his possible properties and assets. The house I built for him (that he lives in now) is in his wifes parents name. Alot of things are in others names.
THe only things that are in his name are a Jeep Wrangler, a pair of 2001 Yamaha 4 wheelers and the lakefront lots that he listed as the grantee.
I can't get anything near what the note is for in small claims, 3,000 is the limit which is way less than I care to settle for.
He tells me where he is working his is subbing from a bottom feeding GC here in town. My lawyer has won a few judgements against that GC.
Garnishing wages was another thing we talked about. If I understood him right as an independent contractor I can garnish his whole check. If he were an employee I could only get 25% of each check.
My question is this: You guys keep saying skip the lawyer, why would I if the note clearly states that he pays for it? What am I missing here?
Matt
I'm just curious as to why you didn't file the lien while it was still an option?
Alot of reasons.
The money owed to me is spread over about 6-8 houses. I would have to pay for each individual lien. That would have been too costly for me. I am not even sure if I was on the sworn statement at this point. If I wasn't then I probably couldn't file anyway.
I was getting payments when the lien window was open. Rough times happen to almost everyone so I took the payments as they came in and tried to give him time. The title company here locked up almost all accounts here after a few builders took them for a few million on forged lien waivers.
The title company actually made it a huge PITA to get a draw, first you had to sign a conditional waiver stating how much money you were owed, then when they decided to cut checks (could be a few weeks) you had to sign an unconditional one.
Looking back I wish I would have done what I could to file liens Tom, now I am left wishing in one hand and sh!tting in the other waiting to see which one fills up first.
Matt
The house I built for him (that he lives in now) is in his wifes parents name. Alot of things are in others names.
This, to me, says this guy is at least a little shady. While there are some legitimate reasons for having others' names on accounts, the IRS takes a very dim view on it, for the most part, because it's frequently done to avoid taxes. And while it is laudable of you to give this person the benefit of the doubt on his intentions, I think you are wise to continue what appears to be a coherent plan of attack with your lawyer.
Best of luck in recovering your pay.
Kathleen
This is a very common practice in my area, a contractor sets up an LLC takes all assets out of his name and runs around without a care in the world.
Something goes wrong- "I'll claim bankruptcy." Is their mentality. And they walk away free as a bird when the sh!t hits the fan.
They have it down to science here, bankruptcy, change their company name a little, get another liscense, rinse, lather, repeat as Diesel Pig says.
They run around bidding jobs way too low, take their money off the top, and the jobs get stretched out because the money is gone. When the contractor sells another job he takes that money and finishes his last job. Comingling of funds is also a very serious offense, but it happens daily here.
That was the purpose of the promissary note, it made it a personal matter that makes it tougher for him to wiggle out of.
Matt
Thank you for the update ... and clearing some details up for me. When you hire a professional, you are hiring them for their judgment- not just their technical skills. This is beginning to sound like one of those times you need to just stand aside, and let the pro (the lawyer) do his job.Best of luck.
My lawyer ran an asset check, it's about 10 pages long listing his possible properties and assets. The house I built for him (that he lives in now) is in his wifes parents name. Alot of things are in others names.
If he transferred an asset such as the house you built, and he did it with "the intent to hinder, delay or defraud creditors" or he transferred it while insolvent and received less than fair value, than you can sue the transferee, in this case, his wife's parents. I suspect that may cause some familial strife which in turn may get you paid, since your debt is less that the divorce will cost the guy. I assume your state, like most, has enacted the Uniform Fraudulent Transfer Act or has something very similar.
Most people who try to get clever about hiding assets manage to screw themselves.
Thanks for the information on that. I'll ask my lawyer about it tommorrow.
That might be the right leverage I need, the real bosses' parents.
Matt
I would bet to those lots are in someone elses name, Maybe you could go to this guy ask him to sign over a lot to you and you will both save on the lawyers fees, Then you could sell the lot or have it, At least at that point you would flush him out on what hes really tinking. If he intends to ever pay you he would think about it, If he intends to stiff you he will blow you off, I bet at that time he might tell you who really owns the lots, I would call EVERY day, The squeky wheel gets the grease
Winning a judgment and collecting money are two different things. IMO the amount of money you're owed is pretty small compared to what a lawyer can bill in the course of a few weeks. If you can't get justice in small claims court, it might be better to just walk away from this one.
I HAVE TAKEN SEVERAL CLIENTS TO SMALL CLAIMS COURT....IN ALABAMA SMALL CLAIMS IS ANYTHING UP TO I THINK $10,000. IF YOU WIN AND ARE AWARDED A JUDGEMENT AND THE LOOSER STILL REFUSES TO PAY MAKE SURE YOU RECORD THE JUDGEMENT, SAY WITHIN A MONTH. ITS A SMALL FEE, LIKE $20. THEN IF THE JUDGEMENT IS ASSOCIATED WITH A PARTICULAR PIECE OF PROPERTY YOU WILL RECIEVE YOUR MONEY WHEN THE PERSON SELLS THAT PROPERTY.
AND WHEN YOU SUE UNDERSTAND EXACTLY WHO IT IS YOU ARE SUEING.....THE INDIVIDUAL OR AN "INDIVIDUAL DOING BUSINESS AS" OR A COMPANY. IT MAKES A DIFFERENCE.
I took Sears to Small Claims Court 2 years ago, it was a real hairball to figure out who to sue. Ended up with some sort of registered agent or something like that.
thanks for the input and Welcome to Breaktime.Something to consider for future posts - When you are drawing up plans as an architect, bold upper case lettering looks neater and more legible, but when you are posting in an internet forum, it is considered rude and as though you are shouting to be heard.So speak in a normal voice and more will listen. Loose the all caps
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will loose the upper case.....thanks for any and all tips.
i'll be checking in from time to time with questions or to just listen....i have a lot to learn yet.
I'm sure we will learn something from you too.But it is OK to capitalize the first letter of the sentence still, LOL
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!