I had an interesting discussion with a contractor a few minutes ago. Went something like this:
Contractor: “You sent out trusses on job #12345, and I have a question about them”
Me, after pulling the layout up on the computer screen: “O.K., shoot”
“You know that barel framed vault in back? My framers want to know how to frame it”
“I’m afraid that’s a little beyond what I can do. We can’t truss something like that, so I left it to be stick framed.”
“Well, they’ve been out here all day standing around scratching their butts. They have no idea what to do, and it’s costing me a fortune”
(This is a barrel vault over a round top window, with a round roof to match)
“Again, that’s a little beyond what I do. I’m not a framer”
“Isn’t there anyone there who knows what they’re doing? I need someone to come out here right now and show these guys what to do.” (It’s 50 miles away and 2:30 in the afternoon)
“I have no idea how to tell them to frame it. Maybe your framer know someone they could call, if they can’t do it” (I’m a little honked off by now)
“I don’t see why I should get someone else since you did the trusses. Isn’t there someone else there who knows what they’re doing?”
“I’m the only designer who works at this location.”
“Well, I’m just a concrete guy, but I’m the GC on this house. and these framers don’t know what they’re doing. Are you sure there’s no one who can come out here?”
“No”
“Well, I guess I’ll try someone else” (Hangs up the phone)
.
Don’t know why the clown thinks I know how to frame stuff like that just because I design trusses. Haven’t had a call like that for a LONG time. Guess he hired the cheapest framer he could get to save money, and thought I could bail him out for nothing.
I wanted to ask him: “Isn’t there a GC there who knows what he’s doing?”
Didn’t think that would go over too well though…
Q: How do you say “hello” in French?
A: “I surrender.”
Replies
re: the framer (not you), maybe knowing your job and how to do it should fall under the "lost skills" thread.
OK ... email him this pic ...
and tell him I can be flown in at moments notice ...
I can get the rest of the building crew also ...
for a price!
Jeff
Buck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
That looks kinda like what they need to do.
The roof they need to frame is round too, but dies back into a valley pretty quickly. Is that what the one in those pictures does?Where are we going, and what am I doing in this handbasket?
maybe the inside finished pic will help ...
Remember .. airfare ain;t gonna be cheap ....
but we'll just need a dirty little hotel room close to a strip bar ....
Ah ... it's close enough we could drive!
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
Looks like that's pretty much what the guy needs to get built.
Somewhere in the conversation he mentioned that he had bought a copper roof for the thing. Maybe he should have spent more money on his framer and less on the copper roof.
Being as he's apparently a tighta$$, I doubt he would go for hiring anyone like you who knows what they're doing.The urge to scream tells me I must be at work.
I'm with Luka:
"That's where I would have asked him if there was a GC there who knew what he was doing... "
I think the ball was dropped long before the framers were handed the prints for the first time. A GC's job is to have a real good idea of how the entire structure is gonna go together, and be able to pick out problem spots ahead of time and find solutions. The GC had to order the materials to build this thing. This should have been addressed at plan time, or at least well before the first stick of lumber was delivered. Jeff's solution is about the only in-the-field method I have seen but, at least in all the areas where I have built, any building inspector would take one look and say "that looks nice; can I see the engineering sheet for it?"
My guess was that the framers said they would only do this house, or at least this part of the house by the hour only, knowing that it was gonna be a PITA, and the builder, knowing that truss companies have ready access to engineers (as far as I know) was just looking for some free engineering. Some people try to cover up their own inadequacies by trying to intimidate the other person.
I think you ought to give the builder Jeff's pics with a little comment like "I found a solution for YOUR problem." Really though, I'm just preaching to the choir. Matt
I can't help my self. I can't help bu think that aboput three months from now, a poor HO is going to be posting about this problem they have with their GC who took on the job but couldn't find anyone to build it as designed so he changed the plans. In the course of the job, they discover that he is really only a concrete guy and was trying to step into the big time. Lots of things go wrong along the way and the schedule is all messed up...
But they got these excellent concrete countertops for the kitchen out of the deal...
;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Funny you should mention that - I was thinking about just that sort of thing the other day.
I wonder what would happen if we someday have 2 threads started at roughly the same time. One started by the GC called "What to do about these moron homeowners". And another one by the HO saying "How do I deal with a crooked contractor".
As best as I can remember, we've never had both sides of a problem represented here at the same time.
I wonder how that would pan out if it happened ???Everywhere is walking distance if you have the time.
It would take about 50 responses, some of the standard jabbing and finally enough missing info would be posted so someone could figure out the two were different versions of the same screwup.
That's when the real fun would begin. I can see a thread about 500+ posts long after that. Probably one of the "copy to your own hard drive keepers" to bring up now and again as a reminder of the best of "he said, she said" tales.
I think that would draw more views to this forum than anything else ever has.
It would be epic.
Heck, I would even PAY to see that.
As long as it was genuine. Spirited. And stayed pretty much civil. (I don't think it would last long if the civil part were not followed.)
It would certainly have the potential to give everyone, not just gc's and customers... a view of the social and financial realities of the "business" of building a home.
Free controversy. While you wait.
quittintime
A buddy worked for an outfit that manufactured stainless steel truck tanks. A customer didn't pay or only made partial payment. I forget what the problem was. They went to court. The court battle became intense. After about a year it suddenly was settled. The story was that my buddy's outfit and the customer were both actually owned by the same conglomerate. The legal department of the company that owned the outfit my buddy worked at had passed on the case to their owner. After about a year the two sides of the same case ended up on the desk of the same lawyer at the conglomerate's HQ, both asking for advice on how to deal with the other side.An ex-boat builder treading water!
ROFLMFAO
I'm sure this also happens all the time in the government.
Free controversy. While you wait.
quittintime
I did that with my clients rat problem. I tought her how to get on line and then we both asked questions and she got her answers directly.
ANDYSZ2I MAY DISAGREE WITH WHAT YOUR SAYING BUT I WILL DEFEND TO THE DEATH YOUR RIGHT TO SAY IT.
Remodeler/Punchout
Somewhere in the conversation he mentioned that he had bought a copper roof for the thing.
A prefab copper roof for a barrel dormer ? Are you kidding ?
That's akin to buying a pair of shoes as a birthday gift to a person you've never met.
carpenter in transition
I am impressed. You and a bunch of others on BT have got some considerable skills (and opportunities to use them).
Good one Jeff. Nothing beats thinking creatively, or as Indiana Jones said..."I dunno, I'm makin' this up as I go..."
and Tim ...
I just helped build that curve ....
followed behind my buddy Joe saying encouraging things like ...
"that ain't gonna work ....."
On the inside curves of the laminated ply ribs ... we learned just how tight a circle you can cut with the circular saw. Made the template with the router and trammel ... but that was taking way too long ... was wanted to make then all ...
as we were both real curious to if we were anywhere near the right train of thought.
lotsa flying by the seat of the pants on that one ...
I started to try and use some formulas .. but Joe thru m calculator off the roof before I could get anything on paper ..... though... I will say ... as a good friend .. he wasn't too proud to try and burn up my saw instead of his cutting all those ribs out.
It's good to have friends .....
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
Jeff,
I'm glad this post came up. 6 months ago you helped me out with these same photos and some advice for a barrel that we were bidding on. We ended up doing the job ( my boss bid it and ran it ) and I understand all went well. I think the boss said it was done with a different method than in your post. I think the guys cut curved headers at each end and infilled with dimensional lumber 16" OC to make the shape.
In any case, I don't think I thanked you for your help. The photos and advice really helped put the price together.
Tim
carpenter in transition
That was the first guess at how we were gonn attack it ...
then we realised the vaulted interior would be easier ... and follow the same profile ... if we went full depth and ran the ribs "across" ....
structurally .. either woulda worked ... as the designer wasn't exactly sure how to build it ... so he glum-lam'd the sh!t outta the structure ...
everything you that little roof section was suported by oversized beams ...
All that curved roof had to do was hold itself up ...
Jeff
Buck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
You have more restraint than I do.
At the point where he said Isn't there anyone there who knows what they're doing? I need someone to come out here right now and......
That's where I would have asked him if there was a GC there who knew what he was doing...
Unfortunately, by the end of that conversation, no doubt I would have asked it.
Free controversy. While you wait.
quittintime
Boss,
Should of told him to post in BreakTime, HEE, HEE ,HEE.
Jon
Wonder how the framers bid the house............you'da thunk they would have seen the barrel and figured out how/time to build it BEFORE the bid went down..........
If having the framer standing around scratching his butt, was costing the wanna-be GC to "lose tons of money".... The framer probably hired on by the hour or something.
Free controversy. While you wait.
quittintime
"The framer probably hired on by the hour or something."
That was the impression I got. Don't know why else the guy would have said they were costing mhim money.
I know I showed a lot of restraint. Unfortunately I'm in a position where I HAVE to. Most of our customers are pretty decent, but there are a few I'd like to go postal on.
I couldn't believe the guy thought I should know how to frame a half round dormer thingy like that. He really was a jerk.I have the body of a God. Buddha.
Wonder how the framers bid the house............ The concrete/gc told them it was a truss roof, so they didn't even look at the plans.Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
The craftsman formerly known as elCid
Boss, you gotta understand that your concrete guy "GC" is a typical liberal. He got himself into the dilemma he's in but now it's everyone elses fault and he has it coming to him that you will drive right out to save his #### and all at your expense. In addition, he won't even say thanks and will then bad mouth you for not seeing his screw up coming and stop him from doing himself in!!!!
The GC I used to work for had a fantastic drywall finisher who had the firm rule to never come onto a screwed up job to try and repair the disaster some other lower priced schmuck had created as no matter what he did, it wouldn't be as good a job as if he had done it from square one and later when someone points out the remaining less than perfect work, his name would be mentioned as "doing it." They somehow would forget to mention that Joe Lowbid had made such a mess of it that short of complete demolition, no one could make it 100%. We admired the pride he had in his work and tried to get on his schedule whenever possible. His higher cost actually saved us money in the long run and helped sell a few extra houses as people would recognize the quality of the product. No more hurried patch jobs to pass inspections that were the results of using "imported labor" (not craftsman) that may have been faster but never as good!!!
Congratulations on your self control in the conversation - tell him to go to FHB and ask for help like a big boy and remind him you are not insured for engineering and later training his workers. Always a good way out is to say "your firm has a policy against this type of service or you insurance company won't cover it!"
Boss,
In the event this comes up again - I've seen a lot of arched trusses made from steel. Metal building manufacturers do them all the time. I've also seen glue lams and some gorgeous timber framed trusses that were arched but they weren't cheap, which sounds like it was a priority on this job.
I wouldn't be surprised if the prefab copper roof he bought has the supports he needs under it already. Of course... it doesn't sound like he knows how to ask for help so I don't think I would have volunteered any of that info in your shoes... I admire your restraint.
Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
I don't think arched trusses would have been possible in this case - The window is only 5 or 6' wide. The thickness of the roof assembly is only the thickness of a rafter.
Leave it to an Architect to think of a solution that calls for 10 times as much money as is necessary. (-:I have the oldest typewriter in the world. It types in pencil.