Hello Everyone,
I am new to this board and have been reading a lot of posts lately but this is my first post. My husband and I are breaking ground today on a major remodel of our 1100 sq. ft. bungalow. We are adding on 1500 sq. ft and pretty much gutting the existing home to rework it. We are acting as our own general contractor with the help of UBuildit as our building consultant.
So far we have attempted (along with our architect) to give our new home a Greek Revival farmhouse look on the outside. It will be a 2 story gable front house with a 1 – 1/2 story wing. So now that we have the outside coming along with a simple Greek revival theme, we’d like to get some ideas for the inside without overdoing it. We’d like to stick with traditional old farmhouse feel with simple Greek revival accents here and there.
Our current dilemma is picking out the type and style of interior trim (doors, windows, baseboard) and also what style of doors to pick. Our first guess on the trim was just to stick with simple 1×4’s for the door and window trim and 1×6’s for the base trim. All of our trim and doors will be painted white so we could always do something other than wood, i.e. MDF. But our real concern is whether or not 1×4’s and such would be the right style for our home.
As for the doors, we want to get the heavier solid core or MDF doors. Is there a typical style we should go with? 3 Panel, 4 panel, 5 panel, shaker style? We were thinking as long as we stick with straight lines without arches and fancy flourishes and such we should be fine. Any thoughts?
Also, do any of you know of any books out there that could help us with this or do any of you have specific knowledge of Greek Revival or even just simple traditional farmhouse styles? Most of the books I’ve found have maybe 1 example of a Greek revival house (Creating a New Old House) which doesn’t help us much in the way of options.
Any help you could give would be much appreciated.
Thanks in advance! – Kacy
Replies
I am on vacation and at someone elses PC now, so I can't call up all my references. One good book is called something like, "Everyman's house" a study of this historical style done by a couple of archys from Portland Maine. It hasa green cover.
windor one has a series of interior wood trim styles based on historical types. I think the web site is windsorone.com
fypon also has foam reproductions of the old styles
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Kacy,
Since I'm on the west coast, I'm not terrribly familiar with Greek Revival farmhouses. My knee-jerk reaction, nonetheless is that flat 1x4 casings and 1x6 baseboards would be too small (and too plain) for any historically-inspired house.
I did some internet searches and came up with some photos of GR interior trim details. The picture I've labeled "formal" is obviously much more ornate than you'd be interested in. I've included it as a reference to what the "true" style might have been.
With this formal trim in mind, the images of the interior door trim and exterior window trim seem somewhat tame. I have seen this style of "shouldered" trim numerous times; it's not terribly difficult to execute, and is essentially plain trim with an applied backband (L-shaped molding around the outer perimeter). Note the way the backband dies into the floor. The baseboards have a cap which is complementary to the backbands, as well.
Finally, I've attached a photo ("Foyer 15") of some recent work I did in a 1912 house. Note the trim on the stairway window. It is very traditional and is, essentially, a simplified interpretation of classical Greek designs. However, by today's standards, it really imparts a sense of class and timeless elegance. The molding components should be easy to find in any good lumberyard (i.e. NOT the box stores!). The top is a 1-1/2" x 2-1/2" solid cap, and the thin piece running parallel to the bottom of the head casing is generally refered to as a fillet.
On this particular house, I used 1x5 side casings and a 1x6 head casings (to which the caps and fillets are attached). At the bottom of the door casings, I used 1-1/8" thick plinths. This made an easy transition to 1x8 baseboards with a decorative cap.
Regarding doors, the historical photos suggest a 4-panel door would be perfect for Greek Revival. If they're not readily available, I think a five-panel door would work well, too.
I really like those black and white architectural photos. Their starkness is effective in illustrating the style. That exterior view is fairly common here in grander houses from the late 1820's and through the 1830's.
We'd like to stick with traditional old farmhouse feel with simple Greek revival accents here and there.
That describes my house, built in 1840. The interior trim is restrained, but is Greek revival.
My door and window trim is 4 1/2" downstairs, and 3 1/2" upstairs. Both of these measurements include 1/2" of beading. Baseboards are 10" down, 7" up.
Greek revival doors in a plain house tend to be two or four panelled. Often flat.
Ed,
What kind of profile do you have on your window and door trim? How is it executed (i.e. mitered corners, etc.)? What about window aprons?
Regarding the doors, do you have applied or solid sticking?
The profile is strictly a flat board, except for a bead of 1/2" which is along the inside of the moulding. I mean towards the door or the window. The bead is actually a separate piece of lumber.
No mitering - Moulding above the doors & windows "sits above" the side pieces of moulding. I think that that is integral to the GR look on simple mouldings.
applied or solid sticking? I'm not sure what this means. Maybe this helps -- the doors are solid lumber. Rail & stile, with flat panels inserted in grooves cut before assembly.
No mitering - Moulding above the doors & windows "sits above" the side pieces of moulding. I think that that is integral to the GR look on simple mouldings.
Are you saying that the bead of the head casing just runs out to the end grain? Or does it have one of those fancy cuts (there's got to be a name for it, but I don't know it) where the beaded portion is mitered, but the rest is a butt joint? I've seen that joint on some of the old Dutch Colonials, especially where the center casing of a two-gang window intersects the head casing. It'd be a tough joint to make, since using power tools is difficult on such a cut. Do you think you could post a picture to clarify?
Regarding my previous door question, the sticking is the decorative edge cut onto the rails and stiles which is immediately adjacent to the panel. In factory work, the rails and stiles are generally formed in one pass on the shaper. In some of the Victorian-era doors I've seen, the rails and stiles have no forming other than the panel groove. After assembly, decorative panel molds (i.e. applied sticking) are nailed in place, with mitered corners.
Are you saying that the bead of the head casing just runs out to the end grain?
No. I wasn't very clear, but I think you can see that I don't know the proper terminology to describe these details. The beading is limited to the inside of the framed door or window opening. It's applied as Mike Maines conveys in post #11. A picture? I'll try that tomorrow. I don't have the connection cable here now.
door question, the sticking
Most of my doors have no sticking. It's a very plain style, and one that I have seen repeatedly here. Doors in the more important rooms of my house have applied sticking.
Thanks for the additional info. I have a sister in law in Pennsylvania, and her windows had beaded stops; it's probably a similar look. Out here on the west coast, I see mostly ogee stops.
I look forward to any pictures you (or anyone else) can post. It's a great chance for me to learn more about the older styles of architecture.
That was my first thought, 4-1/2" butted casings with a bead on the inside. I think back then the bead was actually the window or door stop--you put the casing on flush with the inside edge of the jamb, and the stop laps over this joint.
You could add a simple backband, or even wrap the basecap up and over the doors.
Tall baseboards, probably 3-piece?
Bead trim exactly as you describe.
Tall baseboards, probably 3-piece?
Tall, but probably not as tall as you are expecting. 2 piece. My house is a relatively simple farmhouse. While it's definately Greek Revival, it's quite restrained. You still can't miss the effect of the trim architecture on the inside of the house. It's everywhere and its installation was intentional.
It was a lot more exciting buying this place than trying to fix it has been. I lack the skills.
Hello Kacy,
I live in Richmond Maine, a town considered to have the highest concentration of greek revival homes in the world (its a very small town and this is our claim to fame). We also have alot of classic new england farmhouses. One thing I have noticed that the greek revival homes have in common are their use of pediments. Everything seems to sit on a pedestal from the roof to the head casings of doors and windows. Door styles do not seem to be typical nor do windows, door casings etc. There are a few with arches above doors and windows. The interior ceilings are high as are the doors and windows in most cases. Roofs vary as well, we have mansards, gables, hips, etc. I know alot of these roofs styles were born in different periods but they have been incorporated into many of greek revival homes. Farmhouses, aside from there size are quite different. They are more utilitarian. Interior ceilings are lower, trim is much simpler (alot of stock 1x4, 1x6, etc). Windows are smaller. They also tend to be a compilation of seperate buildings, built as the need arised. Another trait they both share is that of seperate spaces, defined areas as opposed to open concept.
With all due respect, what are you paying the architect for? Shouldn't he be coming up with these types of details?
I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.
I'm also from Maine, the land of Greek Revival style. The reconstruction after the Civil War was a heyday for our state. Builders seemed to make things up as they went, based more on what they had seen and could get rather than any set rules.
Interior moldings were not small. Often they are thick and heavily profiled. Triangular pediments are common over doors and windows, both interior and exterior. Doors seem to be 2, 3 or 4 flat panels. No molded stickings or raised panels. Baseboards are wide, 10" - 12" with cap moldings. Trim work is at least 1" thick. Casings are wide, 4" - 6". Delicate astragal shapes and french curves were not used. Straight lines and chamfers were more common with the somewhat austere style. Modern builders usually don't keep doors far enough from corners to accept such large trim. Something you may want to plan for.
Trim work in this era wasn't just something to cover up some seams. The trim was meant to be a statement and was typically out of proportion with the rooms. There was a lot of fakery going on too. People tried to make less expensive materials look like something else, hand graining, staining and faux painting were popular. If you want the real feel of that period you have to think beyond the 3/4" material and moldings that are common today. Those would have been relegated to the utility and non public areas of the house.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Thanks everyone for your great advice. As for why our architect isn't doing this for us, that is a good question especially considering how much we paid them to draw up the designs for our house (since we came up with pretty much the whole design of the exterior and layout ourselves).
However, I have a feeling they would've charged us a pretty penny more to design the interior trim details which is why we didn't have them do it. Surprisingly, they didn't even know much about the Greek Revival architecture to begin with. Although my husband and I didn't either, I must admit. I just happened to stumble across it on the internet one day and started looking into it more.
To be honest, I think the architectural firm stuck us with the guy who was more a engineered drawings guy than a design architect with all the background training on architectural styles. But that's just my thoughts.
Overall though, your ideas were excellent! I think we were close with our original thinking but we could fine tune it even more to get closer to the actual GR style.
I so envy all of you with Greek Revival homes all around you. Here in Michigan they are not as common in the built up suburban areas like we are in. You see them a lot more often if you drive out to the farming areas! We've been checking out all the ones we can find to get ideas. Now if they' just let us go inside and take a tour....
Thanks again!
I'm an architect turned builder and got into that when I got fed up with the architects not delivering what a client needs and wants. And charging a ton for it. A lot of residential projects get religated to the junior staff who don't have much building experince. In the future look for a small architecture shop (1 -4 people) who specializes in residential work - preferably historical work. Let them work with you on the design - but go else where for construction drawings which most architects either over do or do wrong because they don't have building experience.
That said I have a few books at home that show some nice details for greek revival in new homes - but I can't remember the book names - so I'll have to come back and post them later. I found the name of the one that I liked the best.
Creating a New Old House: Yesterday's Character for Today's Homeby Russell Versaci, Erik Kvalsvik There is also a Farm Houses book by Jean Rekamp Larson that has some nice farmhouse details.
Edited 12/22/2004 1:07 pm ET by Boodog
You might also try posting this over at House Chat, which is the forum associated with Inspired House. There are 'design types' that hang out there that might have some ideas for you to add to all the great ideas on this forum.
Hi Kacy. Just came across your question, and thought I'd chime in and offer another resource.
There was quite a bit of variety of interior woodowork within the Greek Revival period ... from very simple to quite ornate. I live in an 1830s Greek Revival farmhouse in Western New York state, and even within my house there is a lot of variety. The doors are all two panel (vertical panels) with molding around each panel. The trim upstairs is very simple ... the baseboard is flat, 6 inches tall, with a simple 3/8-inch bead along the top edge. The two parlors downstairs have much more elaborate baseboards and window surrounds (and different from one parlor to the next).
I've replicated a lot of the moulding for my restoration work. Not too difficult.
You'll definitely want 6-over-6 windows (six panes in the top sash, and six panes in the bottom sash), and the muntins (the strips between the panes) should be relatively thin (like 1/2-inch, not the monster sizes you see in colonial and colonial revival homes).
Here is a great resource if you have a high-speed connection and want some authentic Greek Revival details. It's the on-line collection of the Historic American Building Survey ... many photos and measured drawings, most of which were done during the 1930s.
http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/collections/habs_haer/hhquery.html
If you type in your county and state name in the search window, you may indeed find measured drawings and/or photos of historic homes in your area. Some examples have many photos (interior and exterior), some have photos and lots of exact drawings, some just have one photo and a fact sheet. So be patient and try a few variations on your search parameters.
A couple years ago, I searched for Federal and Greek Revival examples in all of New York State and Ohio (I organized my searches county by county, and weeded through the results), and saved all the high-resolution photos and drawings on dozens of CDs for my own reference. What a great resource to have!
Allen
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'Nemo me impune lacesset'No one will provoke me with impunity
Hi Kacy. I just spent a few minutes looking around the HABS website (see my earlier post), and thought I'd attach a few examples. These are low-resolution version of what you can access.
The HABS examples are often the most historic (oldest) houses in an area, so I searched in Ohio (largely settled in the Greek Revival period). There are some regional variations in the style (steeper roofs in New England, for example), so if you can replicate examples from your area, that would be best, I think.
Also, note that, as I mentioned regarding my own house, the interior woodwork is often very simple in the upstairs and more utiliatarian rooms (in my house, 4-inch wide door trim and 6-inch baseboards, as you mention in your post).
Well, I just tried to attach files, and got an error ... perhaps I'll try again tomorrow on a different computer!
Allan
Hey Allen,
Thanks so much for your posts. They were quite helpful and I will definitely take a look at the website you mentioned. It sounds like a great resource which is exactly what I was looking for!!!
If you are able, I would love to see the pictures you were going to attach. Maybe it will work next time!
Thanks again for your help!
-Kacy
Hi Kacy. Here's another attempt at attaching a few images. If I had a digital camera handy, I'd shoot some details from my own house. On my to-do list is to someday assemble a book on vernacular Greek Revival architecture, including plans for reproduction houses in authentic style.Also, if you seach on the HABS Web site, note how they "title" the various houses: Name of the house or street address, "Whatever" County, then the state (using Post Office abbreviations). If your search parameter is "match exact words," it will give you manageable lists of potential buildings to browse through. Have fun!-AllenA few examples (I coverted these to very small versions ... at the HABS site you can get very detailed, high-resolution images ... or smaller ones, too):
Here's a circa 1912 photo of my Greek Revival house (1838) and barn in New York State.
Fangdang tastic!!!BTW, I was raised in Wyoming County
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
RE: Wyoming County. From WNY to Maine, eh? Whereabouts in Wyoming County?
I'd be living in Wyoming County now if I had found a property (for sale) that met my criteria: 1. Western part of county (commutable to Buffalo); 2. Federal or Greek Revival in largely original condition; 3. Some acreage; 4. An outbuilding suitable for a woodworking shop. 5. Price within my limited budget.
Found what I was looking for in Orleans County, but Wyoming County is much more picturesque (love those rolling hills). I grew up in Ontario County (Canandaigua area) ... Orleans is flat and boring in comparison.
Allen
Raised first five years more or less in Sheldon, then the folks bought one in Java Center. Went to HS in Arcade.Still have two brothers on opposite sides of Hamburg
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That is too cool! Loved the pictures! Thanks so much for your help Allen!!!!
I will get to searching!
-Kacy!
Kacy, you're welcome.
Just a few more thoughts: As you browse, you'll see that there was a very wide range of woodwork detailing during the period. But, generally, you can go very plain in utilitarian room (kitchen, pantry, closets, bedrooms), and more ornate in the public spaces (parlors, entry hall).
In the parlors, it's nearly ubiquitous to have panels below the windows ... the vertical trim on either side of the windows extends all the way to the floor, enclosing a "raised panel" (I think a couple of the drawing I included showed this).
Flat boards with a bead may well be appropriate for the plain woodwork in the utilitarian rooms. The more complex mouldings can also be quite simple ... my parlor baseboards, for example, are built up using all square stock, as are all the components of the window and door trim in my west parlor (the east parlor is more complex). In other words, you can achieve authentic results very inexpensively, but it's important to keep the SCALE correct.
By the way, a friend of mine is about to convert a 1950s ranch into a Greek Revival storey-and-a-half ... a very similar project to your own.
Good luck.
Allen