I read an article in a modern home magazine where a mid-century modern home was floored entirely in slate tile. Every bit of floor was covered in gapless, matte-sealed dark grey slate, and it was ground smooth and flat.
The lower half of my house is three different flooring materials mounted to plywood that’s nailed to the conrete. I’m assuming I can pull it all up and then level the floor and mount tile. This part is grey to me, so I would like advice here, but here’s the part I can’t find any info on:
What is involved with creating this groutless, flat and smooth look? I know that a diamond grinder of some sort will be used, but I’m not sure what type of slate I should be looking for, what kind of prep to do, etc. It sounds fun though – I like tough projects!
—
BTW, I want to thank you guys for all of your help back when I bought this house 2.5 years ago. I did several upgrades by myself, and all of them were coached by this forum and my dad. Because of the upgrades and a little luck, my house increased in value (even in this market) allowing us to refi out of an interest-only and into a solid fixed-rate loan.
cheers,
Allen
Replies
Laying tile or stone flooring is a skill that takes time to learn.
It's relatively easy and quick to learn how to lay (for example) 12 X 12" tiles with a 3/8" grout joint. The grout lines take up the slack whenever one of the tiles is not quite square, or if the floor substrate is not quite flat.
It takes a bit more experience to lay that same tile with a 1/8" grout line. You need to know how to handle most anomalies in the tile or the substrate, and in general, you can't make any mistakes -- except that they'll be visible in the finished floor.
Doing that same thing with natural stone takes even more patience, more experience, more skill.
And doing it without the 1/8 gap approaches pure art.
I won't be laughing at the lies when I'm gone,
And I can't question how or when or why when I'm gone;
I can't live proud enough to die when I'm gone,
So I guess I'll have to do it while I'm here. (Phil Ochs)
Tell you what. I'll do this just like I did the last 10 'non-DIY' projects that I did. I'll do research. Practice a little. Do it as perfectly as a pro and then come back to post pictures of the whole thing.I didn't come to a forum for regurgitated DIY vs. hire a pro talk. You know nothing about my skills or my areas of expertise, so you shouldn't assume anything or EVEN RESPOND unless you can actually answer some of the questions that I've posted here.
Your reply to YesMaam is way off the mark. He told you the same facts that any experienced tile setter would, without making any assumptions about your skills.
Maybe you're right, except we're in the greatest homebuilding forum in the world, where people come for information, not discouragement. If I've gone this far already, chances are I'm going to do it my way anyway. 'Don't do it yourself' is not information, and information is what I came here for.
Edited 11/6/2009 8:13 am ET by lmuellerjr
I didn't tell you to not do it yourself, and I said absolutely nothing about your level of skill.I'm fairly sure that I said no words of outright discouragement. And I'm quite sure that I said nothing about "regurgitated DIY vs. hire a pro talk".In your opening post, you asked what it takes.And I gave you my opinion regarding that question.I'm sorry if you took it the wrong way.
I won't be laughing at the lies when I'm gone,
And I can't question how or when or why when I'm gone;
I can't live proud enough to die when I'm gone,
So I guess I'll have to do it while I'm here. (Phil Ochs)
Sorry fellas. Thanks for the info.I'll be back in a few months with pics.Moderator, feel free to delete this thread.
Why don't you pick up this thread again, after you complete your job. I'll be interested to read and see how you dealt with problems I've encountered with slate when trying to work with zero grout lines, if you're able to do so.
I really am sorry that the original poster took my opinions so hard.As noted by others, all I did was point out the level of skill needed.Oddly enough, I believe that a reader who HAS that level of skill, would have taken my post as a compliment.
I won't be laughing at the lies when I'm gone,
And I can't question how or when or why when I'm gone;
I can't live proud enough to die when I'm gone,
So I guess I'll have to do it while I'm here. (Phil Ochs)
The OP got a good lesson, without anyone biting back. He should consider himself fortunate.
You're absolutely correct - I did learn a 'lesson'. I learned that regardless of field of knowledge, forums present an environment where it's okay to be ruthlessly arrogant. I'll be back with a full report, complete with photo documentation.
it's okay to be ruthlessly arrogant.
That would be you, right?
This thread is pretty amusing. The OP seems to have come in with fairly high expectations of the forum. I find the best way to avoid disappointment is to avoid having expectations. I forget how the saying goes but something to the effect that the advice is worth exactly what you paid for it.It also seems a lot easier to learn if I sit back and listen to a series of opinions with an open mind rather than give the first reply a somewhat hostile/combative response.Hopefully he had just had a bad day.Karl
Well he got good basic advice, in spite of all the drama he added.
I'll be back with a full report, complete with photo documentation.
Good. Here's one last tip. The ONLY way that you'll have a chance of getting the kind of perfection you're aiming for is to find slate that has been cut perfectly square and precisely the same uniform size.
Edited 11/6/2009 11:41 am by Hudson Valley Carpenter
I notice all the new schools are laying their tile in bathrooms without gap grout line, although it ceramic, I offen wonder how they did it
It is possible that they are doing that for "sanitary code" reasons.Germs are often found in grout lines. And some of the harsh cleaners used are dissolving the grout itself. This leaves a lowered grout line that is hard to clean properly, hard to rinse.With all the MRSA(spell??) scares in many schools, I can see a desire to eliminate any nooks & crannies for bugs to hide and grow.I wonder how a stamped concrete floor holds up to scrutiny in regard to germ growth avoidance???
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
"Germs are often found in grout lines. And some of the harsh cleaners used are dissolving the grout itself. This leaves a lowered grout line that is hard to clean properly, hard to rinse."
That's why we recommend/specify Laticrete SpectraLok Pro with MicroBan.
View ImageLATICRETE¯ SpectraLOCK¯ PRO GroutLATICRETE¯ SpectraLOCK¯ PRO Grout is the finest grout available. LATICRETE SpectraLOCK PRO Grout offers the high performance, color uniformity, durability and stain resistance of an epoxy grout with extraordinary ease of use.
Maximum stain resistance
Meets ANSI A118.3
Improved physical properties, stronger and more durable
Easy to install; never needs sealing
Working time of 80 minutes
Inhibits the growth of stain-causing mold and mildew with Microban¯
Can be used on floors and walls
GREENGUARD certified, low VOC
I think I read about that product.I could go look it up, but maybe you know.... how long after installation can the floor get wet like in a commercial fast-food kitchen?
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
In a commercial kitchen you'd likely use regular epoxy grout - but you could use this product as well.
Here are the limitations:
Limitations
„h Not for use in areas subjected to harsh chemicals,
enzymatic cleaners or areas exposed to aggressive
cleaning regimes (e.g. steam cleaning). Not for use
on floors and base areas in veterinary clinics,
kennels or in industrial applications exposed to
high concentrations of food and mineral acids or
areas exposed to high temperatures. Use
LATAPOXY 2000 Industrial Epoxy Grout for such
applications.
Light foot traffic after 12 hours. Needs to be protected from acids and strong cleaners for 7 days, so I'd wait to flood it with anything for a week.
Jeff
I find it best to not judge people too quickly. Guys here are incredibly open with advise, and will answer just about any question on building someone can think of.
The problem with internet forums is that there's no personal interaction, so its easy to misunderstand what someone has said.
Please keep us up to date on your tiling project. I for one would like to see how it comes out.
How very mellow of you. Maybe you should change your screen name to Herb.
ya know, I may be the only person I know my age who never smoked maryjane.
anytime I was near someone smoking it, my sinuses clogged up so fast I had no desire to inhale myself LOL
Me? I'm takin' the Fifth. ~!~
Come, come now. Surely you could have made some tea? ;)
Ya know? I never thought of that. LOL
I don't have anything against smoking grass. When I was in college, I even drove some buddies about an hour away so they could buy some.
I just prefer being able to breathe properly over anything else <G>
The warm, sunny autumn has made the local outdoor crop the best in ten years... so I'm told.
I know the non-smokable grass in my lawn has had a banner year for growing.
Berries and mushrooms were great too. Hope next year is as good!
"Oddly enough, I believe that a reader who HAS that level of skill, would have taken my post as a compliment."
I would have been tickled pink to have had your reply. Hopefully he is off somewhere madly grinding slate to show us what fools we are. Some good may come of this yet.
Make no mistake -- I really do hope that he achieves his goal. I want for him to have the finest possible floor that he can imagine -- I really do.But if he was posting for the 25th time in a runners forum, asking what it takes to run the Boston Marathon, he would have found similar answers.No, its not at all impossible to acheive at that level -- whether running or laying stone floors. Either achievement takes lots of build-up.
I won't be laughing at the lies when I'm gone,
And I can't question how or when or why when I'm gone;
I can't live proud enough to die when I'm gone,
So I guess I'll have to do it while I'm here. (Phil Ochs)
Your comments were right on target. His were way out of line. Usually that type of response reflects insecurity, but I don't know anything about the OP other than what he wrote. Maybe he was just having a bad day.
In addition to what you said, grinding the surface of slate will result in a surface that scratches more easily. I know honed slate shows scratches when the same slate with the natural cleft would not.
Along those lines if he uses rectified slate to get the tight grout lines he won't have to worry about lippage if he's going to grind the entire floor as the last step.
Billy
I don't believe that message was meant to discourage you, just give you an idea of the level of skill and experience required to successfully complete what you propose to do.
The difference in skill required between setting uniform 12X12 tiles with a wide grout line and variable size natural stone with no gap, particularly slate, is big. The larger the area to be covered, the less likely it is that anyone, regardless of experience, will be able to set slate without some visible problems.
edit: to get an idea, why don't you go buy twenty-five square feet of slate and try laying it up dry with tight joints, just to see if you can keep it all square and straight. Then multiply the runout by the size of the area you intend to cover, in five foot increments.
Edited 11/6/2009 8:50 am by Hudson Valley Carpenter
Some information is discouragement and it can be appropriate. I'm an ER doc and some of my advice on DIY medical care would be to discourage some of it. It would be in the form of information. There are several replies similar to mine so I think this aspect has been covered and I'll drop it, but I thought you were too defensive and thin skinned.
Wow, I think you must have misunderstood that post.
I've done tile installations for over twenty-five years and personally this is not something I would even try myself.
Manmade tiles are tough enough. With slate you have size variations and the added challenge of varying thicknesses. Amongst other things, I do many very intricate kitchen backsplashes and 1/16" grout lines is the smallest I'll go due to the variations in tile sizes even from the same lot #.
Best of luck with your project.
What do you plan to use for your substrate?
"Preach the Gospel at all times; if necessary, use words." - St. Francis of Assisi
No, I didn't vote for him; but he IS my president. I pray for the his safety, and the safety of his family every day. And I pray that he makes wise decisions.
Wow! You got quite an emphatic response.I don't know why the OP took offense at your reply. I didn't see any kind of judgment of him/her in your words just a few facts/opinions worth considering.Karl
I have a tile book by Mike Byrne and he mentions that in Europe they lay tiles without grout lines then grind the whole shebang smooth. Needless to say they must be using different tiles than we use.
Years ago most commercial/industrial/institutional floors were all terrazo. The floors were poured like concrete but with coloured stones and then when dried they were ground smooth. The grinders looked like walk behind power trowels but instead of paddles there were grinding stones the size of bricks. The baseboard part went up about 6 inches which they did by hand somehow. I remember seeing lots of water on the floor as they were doing it.
I guess it became too expensive compared to the newer materials that came onto the market. By the mid sixties terrazo went the way of the Dodo. It looked just like marble with little stones. Now that I think of it, it would resemble some granite counter tops.
roger
Thanks for the confirmation Roger. I've done concrete that looks as smooth as granite or quartz, but I don't know how you might achieve a similar texture with slate tile. I think it's really just a matter of scaling up from handheld grinders to floor models as well as getting the right tile. I'm betting that the overly textured slates will splinter instead of grind down.I've been thinking I'll come up with a rig that assures all corners are perfect 90º angles, and a way to 'miter' the edges to assure a tight fit.I guess I'll go ahead and start on a test panel to show results, and then I can figure out how to scale it up. If worse comes to worse, I'll just have to be on my hands and knees for a few days. You have to understand - I'll do anything for my house. It's a keeper!
You're probably right about slate. I've spent some time in Europe and their floors all look like natural marble or stone which would grind smooth. You can bet that their tiles would have 90degree angles not like some of ours. Mind you if we paid for our tiles what I think they pay for their tiles our would be perfect as well.
When they put down tiles they are meant to stay put for a lot longer. Probably generations.roger
Terrazzo floors are beautiful. The hospital I worked at during school had them with brass joints every 20 feet or so. It also had the molded baseboards.
A few years ago a new national archives building was build near Ottawa. As they could not afford Terrazzo they poured concrete floors and used the same finishing machines that cut and exposed the concrete aggregate in the same way. The floors are fantastic.