Recently I added a second story on my home, which includes a metal roof. I did not install gutters since the height from the ground would be well over twenty-five feet in some places. The house is located on a slope with water draining towards the front of the house and away from the rear. In the past we have always had evidence of water under the house, but with the new construction, I have attempted to correct this condition. My house is located in Mississippi, where the summer temperature can go to 100 and the winter temperatures only dip below freezing for a few days at a time. However, we get a lot of rain year round.
To control the sub-surface water I installed a new “French” drain system at the base of the foundation with perforated pipe wrapped in gravel and filter fabric. To catch the surface water I installed a second system consisting of a series of catch basins connected with solid pipe which discharges downhill past the rear of my residence. I am in the process of installing the third system which I refer to as “ground gutters”, where the water is collected at the ground in a “gutter” rather than at the roof. Although I am sure this is not a new idea, I have never seen it done before and my meager research did not turn up any examples to go by.
By design, some of the catch basins are along the drip line of my gutter-less roof. The “ground gutter” is formed by a piece of continuous material, approximately two feet wide connecting the catch basins under the drip line. The earth under the “ground gutter” material is shaped to form a swale or shallow ditch that directs water to the catch basins. Finally, pine straw mulch will cover the “ground gutter” material.
My question concerns the material for the “ground gutter”. I am considering 6 mil PVC, which I understand is not a permanent solution. I would guess about ten years at best. Another possibility is some sort of a geotextile fabric. In the recent FHB mag (April/May), a woven fabric geotextile material was mentioned (pg 110), and that might work, however, it is designed to allow some water to pass through which is what I am trying to avoid.
I would appreciate any comments that a reader may have had using PVC, a geotextile fabric, or any other related idea/material in a similar condition.
Thanks,
Rick
Replies
I'm not totally sure I follow what you are saying, but are you putting in a drain tile? If not, you should. Dig the trench with angles on the side, put in a liner of Geotec, put some 3/4" river washed gravel, add the drain tile (I like rigid myself), cover with gravel, wrap the geotec over the top of the gravel and then cover in whatever yard dressing you like (stick with shallow rooted plants). All the usual cavets apply: slope the drain tile a bit, cap the uphill end, put a screen over the downhill end, calculate the worst volumn of water you need to handle, etc.
Excuse me for not being clearer. If a "drain tile" is the same thing as a perferated pipe wrapped in geo-tech fabric (sock) and located in a trench whose elevation matches the bottom of my continuous footing, then yes, I have a sub-surface drainage system ("drain tile") in place. That is what I also referred to as a French drain.
Thanks, Rick
If your footing is pretty deep, say 48" or more, and you want to also pull the water that comes off the roof away, then I would add a drain tile about a foot below grade.
"If your footing is pretty deep, say 48" or more, and you want to also pull the water that comes off the roof away, then I would add a drain tile about a foot below grade."But on a different system.If the drain does block or the pump fail you don't want the gutters to be flooding the basement.
Yes, excellent point about on a different system. Actually, the problem I was having with the original question was whether he intended to insert any form of pipe or drain tile, or just wanted the "traditional" french drain, which involves small rock in a channel with some form of surface entry. I've seen these most often with patio type things, not around a house.
I don't understand the precise meaning of the phrase "drain tile". It is probably the same as "French drain" or maybe "foundation drain". Never the less, I have already installed two piped drainage systems around my residence. One, a foundation drain - Perf'd pipe wrapped in filter fabric near the bottom of my continuous footing, and a second drainage pipe above it - a solid pipe connecting several catch basins for surface water.
Restated, the "ground gutter" question was, "What material could I use to lay on top of the ground to direct roof drip-line water to the catch basins?" As a start, I suggested 6 mil PVC or some type of filter fabric. One respondant to my question suggested using pond liner, which sounds like it may just fill the bill.
Thanks for you interest!
Rick
Pond/pool liner would work.A cheaper idea... ice and water shield (a roofing product you may or may not see in your warm climate).If my house wasn't a 100 years old... there would go a really fine hobby.
I will check it out. Thanks for the info!
Rick
And my question about the "ground gutter" is, are you planning on including a perforated pipe (called a drain tile for some reason) in the ground gutter? I suggest that you do, as the pipe can be made to maintain pitch, stay unclogged, and hold a larger amount of water than gravel alone.
No new pipes. I already have two. The "ground gutter" is simply a ditch that is located on the ground and follows the drip-line of the roof. Since the roof is metal and has a good pitch, it throws a lot of water off at the drip-line. The purpose of the "ground-gutter" is to collect and direct the drip water to a surface drain (catch basin) as quickly as possible before it has a chance to penetrate the ground.
My question was, "What would be a good material to line the ditch with?" In the final form, the ditch with the liner will be covered with 3" of pine straw (mulch). It was suggested by another reader to use "pond liner" and I have located that material locally. So, I think this may be my answer.
Hope I have cleared the subject up. Thanks for you interest!
Rick
Read up on your terminology's too.
There is a great deal of difference in a 'french' drain and 'perimeter footing' drains.
Thanks for your input.
Prior to receiving your message I looked up the meaning of several words in a fairly extensive architectural dictionary. Although I do not have access to it from this location, this is basically what it said. Please give me some wiggle room since I am recalling from what I read a week or so ago.
French drain - a subsurface drainage system made up of a conduit (pipe, etc.) with holes or other means of letting water enter. The conduit was then surrounded by aggregate which held the soil back and allowed water to flow to the conduit. If memory serves me correctly, I believe it is installed near the surface, sometimes with the aggregate exposed.
Often I have heard the term "French drain" used to refer to most any construction that will collect and discharge subsurface water through a perferated conduit. I went along with it, but according to the dictionary (and others), this is incorrect. Always glad to learn!
Field Tile - This is a subsurface drainage system made up of short stems of perferated pipe, loosely joined together to direct water from one location to another. This too is surrounded by aggregate as mentioned above. I believe it also mentioned that "field tile" could be used to either drain fluids, or distribute fluids, as in a septic system. For me, this began to clarify the term since it possibly was first developed for use in sanitary "fields", and thus the name - "field tile". I am speculating on this.
Foundation drain - Subsurface drainage system located at or below the bottom of a footing to remove water from the foundation. The construction is basically as previously described - perferated pipe, aggregate, etc. Geo-textiles and other additions may enhance performance but the principle is the same.
Perimeter Footing Drain - I did not look this term up, and I don't remember using it in a previous message, however, I sure I must have. Most likely what I was trying to refer to was a drain at a "continuous footing", which is a type (to me) of foundation drain.
It seems that the biggest difference in the terminology is the usage of the system, since all are constructed and function similarly. The exception may be what you noted as a "perimeter footing drain", since I don't know precisely how that differs from a foundation drain. Maybe you can define that one.
Thanks, Rick
Rick,
A French drain is used to hold water collected elsewhere long enough for it to seep into the ground. They can be either a hole or trench filled with gravel.
Drain tile and field tile or the same physical piece, but under two different applications. Field tile is perferated pipe used to distibute fluid over a large area so it will easily seep into the ground.
Drain tile is perferated pipe used to collect fluid from a large area and direct it to a central point, usually a storm drain or a naturally occuring watershed.
The perforated pipe around your footing is a footing drain tile.
A perimeter drain can be the footing drain but usually means a closer to the surface drain system. Your catch basin system is a perimeter drain.
Now you are asking about a liner for what I call a splash bed and you are calling a "ground gutter."
The main purpose of the splash bed is to withstand the effects of a lot of water falling from the roof. It's secondary purpose is to direct that water, in your case, to the catch basins, which are already drained.
If the surface of the splash beds have sufficient slope (1/4":1') you will not need to install drain pipe (IMO.)
If you don't need drain pipe and tile, you can use a rock lined swale. The rock should be on geo filter fabric, should have a gravel bed on the fabric, and should be several inches in size so that the force of the falling water does not displace any rocks. Or bricks. The top of the swale should be 2" lower than the neighboring area. You can fill the intercices of the rock with potting soil and palnt a cover.
If you must use drain pipes, the shallowest part of the splash bed trench must be 1'. This allows room for 1 1/2" minimum depth of '1"-' gravel, (AKA 1" crusher run; broken gravel and fines, all smaller than 1"), a 4" drain tile bedded and covered in 1" to 1 1/2" clean gravel (AKA all stones are 1" or 1 1/2", no fines), all wraped in geo filter fabric. Cover this the same as a swale. The suface can be lower than, level with, or, higher than the surrounding area.
IMO, the small amount of water that will seep into the ground under either system doesn't need a waterproof layer. I think the geo filter fabric will last longer.
SamT
"A French drain is used to hold water collected elsewhere long enough for it to seep into the ground. They can be either a hole or trench filled with gravel."I believe that you are thinking of a dry well, not a french drain."Drain tile and field tile or the same physical piece, but under two different applications. Field tile is perferated pipe used to distibute fluid over a large area so it will easily seep into the ground."The problem is that those where named back when they where TILE, individual (24"?) sections of clay tile. It is long long sections of pipe or even longer rolls of tubing.
Bill,
The French drain thing may be regional, or might have been when I learned it . I did do a real quick google last night.
Definitions of "french drain" on the Web:
A chemical disposal well.web.em.doe.gov/bemr96/glossary.html
A basement floor drain designed to allow water to seep into the ground rather than be carried away through pipes.http://www.archiseek.com/guides/glossary/f.html
Length of perforated pipe placed underground in gravel with an open surface drain inlet.http://www.co.fairfax.va.us/nvswcd/youyourland/glossary.htm
A drain ditch containing loose stone covered with earth.http://www.criterium-simpson.com/termsearch.asp
A covered ditch containing a layer of fitted or loose stone or other pervious material.http://www.alpha-plumbing.com/plumbing-terminology-f.htm
French drain refers to a ditch filled with gravel, rock or perforated pipe that redirects surface and ground water away from an area. They are commonly used to prevent ground and surface water from damaging building foundations. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_drain
That is why, like gravel, I prefer to describe the characteristics rather than giving it a name.
That's also why I prefer to define the name by the characteristics, so that we are all talking about the same thing in a discussion.
The name is shorter wehen one has to refer to it often.
SamT
Well bless me! Take your pick of definitions. A "French drain" can be just about anything you want it to be!
Rick
I've often wondered why drain tile was called "tile", so that may answer that. But why were (are) those 24" sections (like the clay liners in chimneys) called "tile"?ps I think that original description of french drain (maybe we're supposed to call them 'freedom drains' now) is correct. The old ones I have seen are in things like stone patios and will have a distinct line of smaller stones that both direct the water away and allow the water to slowly seep in. Sometimes there are dry wells at the end.
Thanks for your comments. I have gone back to my Architectural Dictionary and looked up "French Drain", "Field Tile", etc., again! Basically, I think you are in agreement with the definitions given there. Any difference is not worth noting.
The main reason for my getting into this project was probably not stated well back at the beginning. For years I have been getting some water under my house and during this time I was under the impression it was from the older cast iron piping. However, with my recent remodeling, I discovered it was not from the pipe at all, but coming through the concrete foundation wall sleeving where several pipe (water, waste, etc.) were entering the house. Over the years (or maybe never) the pitch that was used to pack around the pipe in the sleeves had failed and left gaping holes allowing water to freely enter.
So my first task was to go under the house and reseal the pipe in their sleeves. Secondly, while under the house (18" crawlspace, three days, six hours each - Ouch!) I decided to remove the earth to the top of the continuous footing. Then I waterproofed the joint between the grade beam and the continuous footing with hydraulic cement all along the length of my house. I observed my patching after several rains and was satisfied that the wall was tight.
Then I went outside and dug down around the pipes penetrating the wall and did the same thing there as well. Next, I applied butyl tape to the foundation wall and over the pipes in an effort to shed water away from the wall and the cement and the mastic patching I had done. Finally, after filling all the holes and shaping the earth to drain properly, I installed the "ground gutter" system (which is just a liner) to get rid of the water that was pounding the area falling from the metal roof.
So, the "ground gutter" was not the focus of my problem in the beginning, however, it ended up being an equally large part of the solution.
Thanks for your comments!
Rick
Rick,
Thanks for letting us know how it worked out.
Pipe sleeving, huh?
MY FFIL has had a major leak in his house (finished basement) almost since it was built. After removing the 24' x 6' x 8" side walk and the three concrete corbels (each held to the wall with 2 pieces of #4 rebar) holding it well above the settled soil, I found an empty 1 1/2" sleeve about 4' down.
I also excavated down to the footing and removed the perforated plastic pipe that circled the house and replaced it with a drain-to-open-air.
SamT
Oh boy! That sounds painfully familiar!
I spent three 6 hour stints under my house doing the foundation patching work in a crawl space that had about 20 inches headroom. In addition, I had to crawl on my stomach to get over/under AC duct and various pipe, including the huge cast iron pipe that ran through the wall and was part of the problem. The ground in my crawl space is a very volitle (expansive) clay that is common here in central Mississippi. It is called Yazoo clay, which sticks to you like glue. And since I was trying to solve a water-under-my-house problem, it was very wet and sticky.
Yazoo clay has a plasticity index of over 40, which means, when it gets wet it will expand an enormous amount. I am working on the redisign of building now (I'm an architect) where the clay has risen so much in the crawl space, it has pushed the suspended plumbing up enough to raise the water closets off the floor above - twice! Our concrete drilled piers have to be designed to resist more tension (pulling apart stress) than compression (bearing) stress! I have seen instances where a sizable concrete column (pier) will be pulled apart by the upward forces generated by Yazoo clay when it gets wet and expands. It's powerful stuff!
The crawl space adventure under my house would be miserable work for most anybody. But, get out your sympathy towel. I did the whole thing with a slipped disk which made it downright painfull at times. But the Lord had pitty on me and hung just enough carrot in front of me to keep me plugging away. Didn't say I was smart, did I?
So, got tears in your eyes yet? No? Sam, you're a hard, hard man.
Appreciate your comments.
Rick
The geotex will work, but if you want something water proof then use pond liner.
Good idea! Thanks for the tip. I'll investigate this possibility tomorrow.
Thanks, Rick
Pond liner is expensive I like to use rubber roofing with decorative rock as my medium , also I like to landscape in front of it with the same decorative rock as the mulch.
ANDYSZ2I MAY DISAGREE WITH WHAT YOUR SAYING BUT I WILL DEFEND TO THE DEATH YOUR RIGHT TO SAY IT.
Remodeler/Punchout
I may look into the decorative rock idea when I turn the corner and work on another side of my house. We have a low stone retaining wall in the front yard that is quite handsome. I am going to give that some thought.
Thanks for the idea.
Rick
If your 'ground gutters' are lined (plastic or W.H.Y.) you'll have puddling. This will cause a couple of problems: splashing when waterlogged, and a nice breeding-ground for mosquitos. And water dripping from 25' will stream down the walls and over your windows when the wind gets behind it. If you had my missus, gutters would be a small price to pay!
Cheers
Just a clarification. My "ground gutter" is a continuous plastic sheet, about two feet wide, that runs along the length of my house. The edge of the plastic sheet begins about 2" above ground and rests against the concrete foundation wall and then gently slopes away (down) from the wall for a horizontal distance of about 18 inches. It then slopes up for another six inches to the opposite edge of the plastic sheet. This forms a swale, or shallow ditch near the middle of the 24" width. Then, the whole length of the "gutter" (ditch, swale) slopes to surface drains where the water is dumped and piped away underground. Also, the plastic is covered with about 2" of pine straw mulch which breaks up the falling line of water and reduces splash, while still allowing an easy flow underneath.
Since completing the installation, I have carefully watched to verify that the system is doing what it was designed to do. The "ground gutter" is located under the drip line of my metal roof which dumps a lot of water quickly, in a Mississippi rain storm. I am VERY happy to say that it disposes of the water quickly and can handle quite a volume of it. I have not seen any puddling during or after a storm so far and we have had a couple of significant storms. Also, I have monitored the discharge emerging from the underground pipes down stream and it is clear water, meaning that the water is contained by the plastic sheeting and not mixing with mud. In addition, it has very little debris in the discharge stream.
I can assure you if any misquitoes are trying to hatch in a hidden puddle, they can expect the ride of their life with the next rain. And best of all, the Missus is happy!
Thanks for your comments!
Rick
You can use EPDM as suggested, or consider Tu-Tuf, which is much lighter, and may be easier to work with.
http://www.energyfederation.org/consumer/default.php/cPath/21_28_68
Thanks for your contribution.
I have a roofing contractor friend on the look-out for some EDPM that someone might be tearing off. If it is a ballasted roof and they don't tear it up getting it off, I plan to use it for my next "ground gutter". The old EDPM is something they won't have to pay to take to the dump, so they are glad to deliver it to my house for no charge. Can't get much cheaper than that!
Rick
Rick, i got lost in the semantics there a bit, so I never found out if the uphill area was actually sloped away from the house. Around here (wet coast of Canada) that's imperative. Prob mean a retaining wall, tho. Sorry.
Ciao for niao
***I'm a contractor - but I'm trying to go straight!***
Thanks for the reply.
I answered your other message a moment ago. So you can read through that. But just to set the record straight, the floor elevation of my house is about five feet below the curb of the street with my front yard sloping towards the house. The front of my house is about 75 feet long, so I catch a sizable basin of water at my foundation with each rain. Recently, I installed surface drains that handle most of the water before it gets to the house, but I still had the problem of getting rid of that roof water quickly. Thus, the "ground gutter" was born. It seems to be doing the job - so far!
Rick
Thanks for replying - twice. Sounds like you've put a fair bit of effort inyo it, and that it works. Good for you! Wonder if I can use it hereabouts. (But don't expect royalties, tho' I'll put your name on recommendations)Ciao for niao
***I'm a contractor - but I'm trying to go straight!***
Hey - don't put my name on anything, thank you. There are enough lawyers circling my block already!
Good luck with it!
Rick
Interesting discussion on the term "french drain". anyway...
I saw a ground gutter on t.v. of course it was one of those "what budget? just send me the bill" places plus it was warm there without alot of trees. They actually incorporated it as "moat" around the house. But more importantly I think they used river stone to top it off (leaving it exposed.) Looked really nice.
Don't know about protecting against debris infiltration or even just cleaning leaves and stuff the top. Pond liner plus river stone graded to outlet(s) sounds like something I was trying to think of for my own house awhile back. I would think it's a matter of whether you're trying to block the water and divert it completely with pond liner or just disperse it with geo-stuff.
one way or the other, there's just something about gutters I don't like.
I couldn't agree with you more.
There's just something I too don't like about gutters - expecially when you live under a tree canopy of 5 or 6 large oaks and a 24" pine or two thrown in. And the fact that the gutter is around 25' above the ground doesn't entice me at all! I can fall off a much shorter ladder and be considerably happier, thank you.
Rick