Replies

1. 
   JohnSprung | Apr 23, 2003 10:02pm | #1

   No, code requires that the neutral and ground be connected at the service entrance, and forbids any connection between them anywhere else.

   -- J.S.

2. 
   ahneedhelp | Apr 23, 2003 11:40pm | #2

   If you have a main disconnect at the meter location, which would be required if you had to run 25 feet to the service panel, then you have to keep the ground and neutral bus bars separated in the service panel (or breaker panel as some would call it) and need four SE cables, one of which is the ground, running to the main disconnect outside, where the neutral and ground can be joined and the ground run to a series of ground rods.

   (I like to bury at least two.)

   does that sound right to you, john (sprung) ?

   
   

   ---

   Edited 4/23/2003 4:46:02 PM ET by Ahneedhelp

1. 
   JohnCA07 | Apr 24, 2003 12:24am | #3

   The main panel on the pole includes the main disconnect and meter.  Unfortunately I only ran three cables from the main panel to the subpanel. 

    

   The confusing thing is I don’t recall the main panel having any additional lug available to tie in an additional neutral/ground cable.  The neutral/ground connection in the main panel was a pass through type. I also recall my local code stating that the neutral/ground had to be one solid cable with no breaks from the weather head connection all the way to the subpanel.

    I’m a little stumped on how to tie in this additional cable to the ground/neutral connector back in the main. Any expert options?

1. 
   ahneedhelp | Apr 24, 2003 01:07am | #4

   I repeat -

   If you have a main disconnect outside next to the meter, then the inside service panel, which in effect is a sub-panel, has to have isolated/separate neutral and ground bus bars.

   Do you have a combination service entrance box with meter/disconnect and a couple of spaces for breakers ?

   When an old service panel is turned into a sub panel during an upgrade,where it is fed from a new service panel (to keep some of the old circuits as-is), then a ground bus bar is introduced to the old panel and the 4 wire SE cable's ground from the new panel to the old panel is connected to the new ground bus bar.

   I don't understand "pass through type" on your old panel.

   Does your old panel have a disconnect as well ?

   If there is a disconnect outside, service panel disconnect is not required but some folks like the redundancy and is ok to have it.

   I'm still not 100% clear on what your setup is and sure wish someone else would chime in....HELP !

1. 
   JohnCA07 | Apr 24, 2003 02:52am | #5

   First off, thanks for the help.

   My main panel on the pole is new and it has a meter and a main disconnect (breakers) built in.  What I mean by pass through for the neutral/ground leg is that the cable is not cut and attached at two points within the main panel. The cable is just stripped of its jacked (about an inch) and passes through the connector. The center point of this connector has a hex bolt which crimps the bare cable to it. 

   My problem is identifying a safe way to attach the additional neutral I need to install to the neutral/ground connection in the main panel.  If there is no designated lug for this forth cable can it be attached with some type of crimp fastener to the neutral/ground connector? My explanation of my setup may not be clear so I'll try to take a digital photo of my setup and attach it with my next post.

   My issue is not with the subpanel, I understand the separation needed between neutral and ground at the subpanel.

   -John M 

1. 
   ahneedhelp | Apr 24, 2003 03:52am | #6

   John -

   Still not getting a clear picture of what you're trying to do at the main (meter) panel.

   Between the sub panel (your breaker panel inside) and meter/main disconnect should be four wires - two hots, a neutral and ground.

   My setup uses four separate cables, although there are probably SE cables that incorporate all four in one sheathing.

   Although the neutral and ground connect at separate lugs in the main disconnect, they are in fact joined if you look at the bus bars.

   Most modern disconnect/meter panels have separate lugs for the ground and neutral - maybe yours doesn't and this is what you're asking about.

   Some manufacturers have lug adapters that can be purchased that can be added onto a bus bar, or something to that effect.

   Or you can simply insert the additional cable, in your case the missing ground although you said neutral, to the neutral lug. This is if there is room.

   Now I am wondering if you have ground rods buried and a ground wire connected to it from the main disconnect. Is there a copper wire running from the main disconnect into the ground somewhere ?

   Between the meter and the main disconnect are two hots and neutral, just three cables.

   Please note that I say all this with qualifier that I am not a licensed electrician.

   I am waiting for someone to jump in and correct or clarify anything I've been telling you.

   I think I have a better idea what your question is.

   You're looking for a proper attachment point (lug) for the ground wire that is missing between the sub and main disconnect ?

2. 
   JohnCA07 | Apr 25, 2003 01:31am | #8

   Ahneedhelp –

    

   Yes, I think you now see my problem. I don’t have an additional lug /connector to accommodate the new wire.  But as you have described, maybe all I have to do is slide the new ground (the ground wire between the main and sub panels) into the current neutral/ground connector in the main panel.  I know I can look this up but since I ‘m writing I’m going to dare to be lazy and ask if anyone knows the minimum gauge this new ground wire must be? Sorry, I didn’t get to take a photo of the panel last night as it was pouring rain, I’ll try again tonight.

    I just looked over CAPS post and I think he is on to something.

3. 
   CPopejoy | Apr 24, 2003 06:59am | #7

   John,

   Well, I think you're O.K.

   You've got the service entrance on the pole.  And you have a subpanel at the house, which is a separate structure from the pole.  Code says that if there are no metallic paths (other than the feeder conductors) between two separate structures (the pole and the house), you can run a three-wire feeder (two hots and a neutral) and bond the ground and neutral buses at the house panel.  And in practice, I've seen the phone co put their NID on the same pole as the service. 

   Of course, you need a grounding electrode system at both panels.

   This is a pretty common approach in rural areas--the poco will run an overhead drop for free, but the homeowner wants the wire underground.  And it's less expensive for the homeowner to run the feeder than to have the poco do it.

   Check with your permitting agency on this.

   Best of luck.

   Cliff

1. 
   JohnCA07 | Apr 25, 2003 01:40am | #9

   Cliff –

    

   Thanks for the information and I must say I like the sound of it. You have explained my setup to the tee.

    

   The one item I don’t have installed currently is the additional grounding rods at the sub panel.  As I was reading your post it started to sound very familiar and now I’m wondering if I’ve actually read the setup you've explained. I’m going to go back through my county codebook and my PG&E guidelines tonight. If all I have to do is install the additional ground rods than I’m an extremely happy camper!

    

   Now that you’ve jogged my memory I think another option was to attach the ground from the sub panel to the rebar in the foundation. My foundation is done now so I’m not going this route but though I should mention it.

    

   I'll let you know what I find.

   Thanks again