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I recently moved to a new apartment, the building and the wiring are old, so the receptacles are the 2 prong type. I need to hook up my computer, but am concerned about not having a ground wire, as I have heard that static electricity can build up and zap the hard drive. I installed an adapter, to enable me to plug in the 3 prong plug but the tester still shows no ground.I can’t pull a new wire because the place is a rental. I am stumped here, I have even considered running a small wire externally, to a known ground, but not sure what to do. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
Casey
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If you are going to run a wire, run at least a 14-gauge one - the standard ground that would be in a modern 3-prong outlet. Get it either bare or with green insultion. You can run it to a cold water pipe and attach it with a brass clamp available at any building supply or HD or Lowe's. You can drive a grounding rod (6 to 10' of metal rod) into the ground, preferable in an area that's always moist, and attach to that. Duct work and other metal objects are much dicier. They may or may be well-grounded and might have a good connection when hot but not cold, etc.
Sometimes the 2 wires were run in metal conduit which can be connected to inside the outlet's junction box, but one is rarely so lucky. Find out where the circuit breaker is and confirm with your tester that it does shut off that outlet before proceeding.
Back in my student days, I never let a little lease agreement stand between my and some remodeling. I added electrical outlets, gas lines, and even an extra water heater (for long showers). No one ever minded. Or maybe no one ever noticed. A great to make friends in a dorm is to buy an old high-flow shower head at the thrift shop and retrofit (emphasis on retro) the pissy eco-showerheads. -David
*Well you probably don't need to ground to the electrical system if all you are worried about is static electricity. Think about it, where is the difference in potential that would cause the static electricity spark? It is in the floor covering, furniture in the area and the human operating the machine.So, just get youself a chair pad for the floor, fasten a wire to one corner of the pad and the other to the cabinet of the computer. This eliminates the differential and the static electricity problem. Cheap, easy, efffective.This Will Not Take Care Of Any Problems With Electrical System Problems. But that isn't what you asked about. You asked about static electricity. For system voltage surges be sure to use a surge protector. Then rather than the plumbing connection run the grounding wire to the electrical box. My experience is that connecting to the plumbing is often not effective and is often dangerous.
*I have the same deal in my old house...no ground wires in the outlets.My father-in-law told me to use a short piece of wire to connect the ground terminal to the nuetral terminal on the outlet. A "jumper" wire, he called it. What do you guys think of this? I know it's not code...but does it work?
*Jefe,DON'T follow your father-in-law's suggestion. that's called a "bootleg ground" and is extremely unsafe! Here's why:1) The neutral is a current-carrying conductor. It's the return path for the current. When the computer is on, the neutral is carrying as much current as the hot, and at essentially the same voltage (120V). You do not want to touch the neutral. It's really not "neutral", but it's commmonly called that. 2) The grounding wire, or "ground", can be considered sort of a "safety line". If an appliance has any metal parts that you could touch, those parts are connected to the ground wire. The ground wire runs back to the electrical panel ground/neutral terminal bar.3) If a loose connection occurs in the appliance, and a "hot" wire (either the always hot one or the neutral one if the appliance is turned on) touches the metal of the appliance case, the current will flow along the ground wire and make a short circuit, and the circuit breaker will open (or the fuse will blow). This is good--the ground wire is the avenue that the electricity follows to zero potential; if there was no ground, YOU might be the path that the current takes. Especially if you are standing on a concrete floor, or touching a water pipe or anything else that's grounded.4) Now here's why some people think that you can bootleg a ground (connect ground to neutral at the outlet): the neutral and the ground wires connect to the same place in the service entrance panel (the ground/neutral busbar). A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. If you bootleg a ground, you have connected the exposed metal parts of the appliance (or tool, or computer) directly to the neutral conductor! So if you happen to be reasonably well grounded, the current will flow through the neutral AND THROUGH YOU on it's way back to low potential. It only takes a few milliamps of current to foul up the electrical signals in your body that make your heart beat! Can you say, "ventricular fibrillation" and"cardiac arrest"?Can someone nearby perform CPR?5) A bootleg ground situation won't always deliver a lethal shock. If your skin is dry, you are standing on carpet, in rubber-soled shoes, etc, and you touch the metal case, you might not even feel a tingle. But why take the chance?Please check your in-law's house for "improper ground" with an outlet tester. The life you save may be your wife's father's!
*Wow...!
*Grounding will do little to prevent static damage to your computer. Grounding is good, but not the solution.If you have high static electricity, the quick cheap fix is to mix a little fabric softener into a spray bottle of water (about 1 part to 10). Mist it on the carpet and furniture in the area of the computer. Don't put it on hard surfaces like tile or desktops, it gets slippery.Don't buy the antistatic sprays from the computer shop, they are the same thing at a much higher price.
*Let me clear up some misunderstandings here...Although static electricity can be a problem with computers, this is more of a concern when you are disassembling/assembling them and you are handling the PCBs (printer circuit boards) that contain the ICs (integrated circuits) - also known as "chips". Static from your body - you know, like when you touch a doorknob and get a small shock - can fry these small delicate devices while you are handling them directly. That is why, when purchased separately, these devices come in static bags - usually a tinted plastic, come with static warnings, and often with a wrist ground strap that you use to ground yourself to the computer frame while you are dissecting it.The main consideration with respect to electricity and damage to computers is line voltage spikes and other variation in the electricity coming out of your wall outlet. An excellent example of this is when there is a lighting storm outside and a surge of electricity enters the home's electrical system and blows out electronic devices. Unfortunately, I think that many of us have experienced this. This is the kind of thing that will fry your hard drive, mother board or modem. The way to guard against this is to buy a surge protector, which is a device that you plug into the wall, and then in turn, you plug you computer into. Any store that sells computers sells surge protectors. You can also have an electrician install a whole house surge protector in your breaker box - which doesn't apply in this case. I have both types of surge protection at my house.The previous was fact, now we get to the opinion and conjecture… I think anyone who has an expensive computer and no surge protection is taking a big chance.As far as the original grounding question (2 prong plugs), I am by no means an electrician, but know that I have a few 3 prong to 2 prong adapters that have a small metal grounding tab (ground lug) hanging out of the side where the 3rd prong would normally be. I believe the idea is to attach this ground lug to the center screw that secures the outlet cover on the outlet box. This way the ground lug is connected to the frame of the outlet device, which in turn is grounded to the metal box; which is all based on the assumption that the outlet box is grounded. I have no idea, if in the antique 2 prong outlets, the boxes are generally grounded or not.Further, I have no idea if surge protectors are effective when used on 2 prong AC wiring systems.
*Run a ground wire to my house and I will take care of it from there. Just want to be a good neighbor ya know!If my static bothers anyone here, then your ground wire is bad also. I will let the first million applicants run grounds to my guaranteed ground source free for the first three months, and then only $9.95/month billed on your credit card there after.near the perfect ground stream,aj
*Jack,Do you have a website? You should put one up, then people could ground their computers over the internet. If you get rich off this one, just remember who's idea it was!
*Casey:Well you have seen the opinions. Now you have to decide just how much risk you want to take with the machine. As for me, I use a static electricity ground much as the one I described. But, then if you don't live in a dry climate you may not need that. Then I use a surge protector with a tell-tale to tell me when it has been zapped. Then I go get another. In another installation I use an UPS that serves both as a surge protector and as a power source to shut down the system during power failures.For a surge protector to work correctly it must have a good ground. Since you don't have that at the outlet you have to find one. Plumbing isn't reliable so you need to find another. My favorite is tojust run a line out to the electric box for the unit. But, there are other ways, the bootleg ground is NOT one of them.
*So, in retrospect, if you use a bootleg ground, the electricity has to come in from the box through the black wire, go through the appliance, (computer), out through the white wire, where it will immediately meet the green wire, (ground), and just as immediately come back and bite yer ass.Whereas, if you have a correctly grounded electrical system, the power comes in through the black wire, goes through your computer, out the white wire, all the way back to the box, then it gets onto the green wire, (ground), and can come all the way back to you, to bite yer ass if it wishes. Since everyone knows how lazy and out-of-shape electricity is, everyone knows that if it is forced to take that long route back to get you, it will probably decide it's not worth it, and will instead run off to play with the ground rod.Luka, near the lazy electrical stream.
*Casey, how are you reading the ground, meter or plug light tester? The ground from the center tab screw on the plug will not be made if the device has insulating washers behind the mounting tabs of the plug. Remove the insulating washers, or beter yet remove the plug and put in a three prong pug. Attach a bare copper wire from the ground (green) scew to a screw tapped into the back of the metal box. The bow and armor cable act as a ground if unbroken all of the way back to the service panel. It is the lazy electrical code.Dave
*Casey - You need a BackUPS unit - call American Power Conversion (800) 800-4272 and talk toi theirtechnical department about effects of two-wire service (assuming the BackUPS is plugged in with an adapter, ie no ground).You can peruse them on the web by clicking here.Jeff
*My UPS driver never backs up....He just flys in forward everywhere he goes.I suggest that there is no need for nada...All the fancy stuff is just part of parting with good money.And if my puter flops...I may just celebrate.aj
*i All the fancy stuff is just part of parting with good money. AJ - I have 3 units in the office and they chirp several times a day (meaning spikes, low voltage or inadequate cycles). Every chirp is an opportunity for damage - for $150 it's worth it and they add something like $25,000 in damage insurance. Plus if the power quits it keeps running for nearly 10 minutes to allow shutdown.i And if my puter flops...I may just celebrate. If your putter flops ... you'll need to check here. Looks like lots of company, too. :)Jeff
*Rein is absolutely right about this. I've had a keyboard get fried by static on a properly grounded machine. The board was getting a little flaky, and when the MIS guy came in to check, he touched it without first touching ground like I always do, drew about a 3/4" spark, and had to go for a new keyboard. The fabric softener trick works, but it's messy. It originated with the projectionists who had big static problems with the platter systems.-- J.S.
*My insurance has a tiny deductible...I am also about as in love with technology as the Unibomber or the Amish...If it all smokes, I will smile for days!near...by...close to...the stream,ajI am not against you having all the bells and whistles...enjoy my man.
*Oh and Jeff...Are you using viagra!?...I didn't know...Sorry to here. Hope all is well in the land of the purple haze...near the stream enjoying life with out the drugs...well...no...We do hit the beer with the ski buddies and vball buddies religiously!aj
*Sorry, AJ, to digress back to the original question, but the most recent house I rented had only two prong outlets. I used one of the 2 to 3 prong converters and ran a ground wire attached to the tab out a window and attached it to a ground stake. (The fact that there were gaps around most of the windows made this easy to do...) In the early 1980s, I was working with some computers that would not work correctly unless they had a good ground and while I don't know if it is still the case, I always try to establish a good ground for my electrical equipment. At least some of the surge protectors will dump the excess voltage from spikes to the neutral in addition to or instead of the ground. Some surge protectors are actually advertised as having the advantage of dumping excess voltage to neutral rather than "contaminating" the ground where it is claimed that a "dirty" ground is detrimental to good networking. I have only opened up a couple of surge protectors, but they all had connections between all three wires so that they would shunt overvoltage to neutral as well as ground. The use of low cost surge protectors is open to some debate. Most electrical circuits get some voltage spikes on them from electrical equipment starting up or shutting down. It is felt that getting battered with voltage spikes shortens the life of computing equipment, with some holding that most failures of computing equipment after it has been operating for a while can be blamed on voltage spikes. Ideally, you would want something that would eliminate all of the spikes but most surge protectors still let some spikes through. There is some debate whether the cheapest of the surge protectors actually supresses enough spikes to be at all worthwhile. Most will say that "better than nothing" and one individual reported that when he had a lightening strike near his house, the innerds of his cheap surge surpressor instantly vaporized and thus saved his computer. Supposedly, however, the more expensive surge protectors and the uninterruptible power supplies will a reasonably good job of clipping off the worst of the voltage spikes. I have not found static electricity to be much of a problem where I have lived. In one location where I worked, some rather expensive static elimination mats were installed which were grounded to the electrical ground, but that was back when Personal Computers were really expensive. The static elimination mats and other equipment is still available through large electronics outlets, but they tend to run several hundred dollars at least. In my experience, the metal junction boxes in older houses are almost never grounded unless for some reason the whole house was wired with BX cable or something similar, which I have seldom found. A UPS is undoubtedly the way to go, but remember that they rely on batteries which have a finite life span and thus need to be tested periodically. I assume that it would be possible to replace the batteries, but everyplace I have worked they just throw the entire old UPS away and get a new one.
*Casey...spend your loot on some insurance and chill...Most of us only need UPS for package delivery. I know you like em...but...really....I have not lost a single thing in my home to electrical faults in twenty years of having my own shack.near the stream hoping something fries soon,aj
*AJ - actually, I like them for other people. I have four computers sitting at home right now and none of them are hooked to a UPS. Of course, here in the NW, unlike some other places, we still have reasonably reliable electricity, at least for the time being until they decide to sell it all to California for the highest bucks...
*Now there's a man who can not tell a lie...Fessin up...is good Casey...good for the soul....now just sit a little taller....feel the pride come over you....bask in it just abit....ya go ahead...It feels good it do.Near the brilliant mechanic who's car is up on blocks sittin in the front yard,aj
*i Are you using viagra!?...No putter problems here!
*puter...where I am from means computer....putter...well, it is to do with golf....Do ya mean peter or is it just a regional difference>No matter...near the stream glad to see your golf is going well,ajViagra in the mail to ya...as I have a friend who's a PA.
*Hi. I'm a newbie on the board, and I have a question which is probably really simply to you guys, but confuses the hell out of me. My sig other and I am in the process of buying the house we currently rent. Our landlord is a slumlord who can't legally sell it with a 50A breaker box, so we're forced to replace it before we can buy it. Yes, yes, we really want this house - it's cheap! So, anyway, we have to replace the breaker box, and neither of us are electrician's, but then, neither do we have a 1K to spend on it. So I'm reading up on connections and such, and I found this thing that I'm really confused by. I understand that the neutral sucks the excess current back the power company, and the ground puts extra in the earth. As I understand it, you ground the neutral at the main just in case of surges coming in? or going out? or both?but anyway, my question is really about 240V circuits. This Black and Decker book says that "a double-pole breaker wired for 240V transfers power from both hot bus bars (neutral and breaker?)to white and black hot wires in a 2 wire cable. A 240 volt circuit has no neutral wire connection; the white wire is tagged with black tape to identify it as a hot wire." Now, I don't know much about electricity, but this seems inherently dangerous. If there is no outlet other than ground for the excess electricity I think you could 1) get a short and start dumping huge amounts of electricity into the ground and 2) end up creating the ground into a neutral, which would defeat the whole purpose of the ground.Therefore, shouldn't one -always- use three wire cable when wiring 240V?But, see, I'm not an electrician, or even close to a professional trades person, so I came here for advice :)Thanks in advance
*Courtney....get a better loan...And Sell the book to help pay for an electrician.near the stream,aj
*Well, that's lovely AJ, but as I'm not paying for the house, I'm in no circumstances to make that decision. I can only support my man in his decisions as best I can, which, in this case, means finding out what I don't know. We can't screw up too badly, because we must past the electrical company's inspection before they'll turn the power back on after we hook up the breaker box.You still haven't told me why 240V doesn't need a 'neutral'. And the book 1) is highly recommended on this board and 2) cost me $5.95. Despite my humility, I do know a bit about electricity, just not about 240V. I wired my own bedroom and put a breaker box in my parent's house last summer. However, they use 12V DC photovoltaic electricity, which works differently, obviously. I'm used to thinking in terms of 2 or 3 amp/hrs as a big load on the battery system. Even the Trace inverter didn't produce 240V. Therefore, I ask in all humility, why doesn't this book, which is highly recommended on the board by professional electricians, recommend a neutral wire instead of only two hots and a ground. I simply think it would be safer. Am I correct?
*Courtney,There are so many things I'd like to say. Let's start with: Congratulations, you finally found a way to make Jack's head explode!More seriously, unless you set out to make Jack's head explode, you are definitely over your head. Don't mess with that box, no matter how much you read! Just because you don't have health insurance doesn't mean you attempt surgery. Find a way to afford to do it right.I hate to explain to you the reason why there is no neutral, because I'm afraid you will only take it as encouragement. Instead I will give you a clue so you can sleep: don't think of alternating current as a loop. Or as Jack might say:i What is the sound of one hand zapping by the stream?
*Courtney,As any of us know who have worked on older houses, there has been great strides in house wiring in just the last 50 years. A few serious mistakes (such as aluminum house wiring) and a few excellent inovations (such as the GFI's). Just cause it works, doesn't always mean that it's the best way to do things.Your logic in seeing a need for a neutral in a 240v circuit is perhaps a bit flawed, but your conclusion is a good one. Most codes are slowly moving in this direction when they finish outlawing knob and post.If you are in the process of rewiring, running 2 hots along with a neutral and a ground wire is the route to go. Most 240v appliances will be factory equipped with plugs that accept this type of outlet.The ground/neutral situation can be very confusing and there is no need to make it anymoreso. Suffice it to say that as you already know or soon will both will join as one at the box but only at the box and that there is no danger of overcharging the earth from a groundrod. You'll notice that neutral after melding with the grounds in the box goes on and follows the hot wires back to whence they came.Ours is not to reason why -- ours is just to wire or die. Right AJ.Good Building,Jim Malone
*AJ,Seems like I remember an old Johnny Carson show with Arnold Palmer's wife on. Johnny asked if she did anything to wish her husband luck before a golf tornament. She replied contritely that she sometimes would kiss his balls. And then it was Johnny's turn.I beleive he said something like "I'll bet that makes his putter pucker"Jim Malone
*Courtney, Where I live the BOCES schools offer adult education and one of the courses is electricity.AC is alternating current....Electricity is measured in amps (the amount of)...voltage (the potential of) and wattage (the power of)...Residential AC comes to you from the pole with voltages based on the differences in each of the three wires...one wire is grounded to the earth at the pole along with at your home through a wire to a ground rod....AC alternates so the flow in the wire never gets anywhere...it goes back and forth to heat up the filament in the light with friction *(resistance) so much that at the right temperature it glows and releases photons...Now to your 240 volts and neutrals....The electric supply from the power company's pole has a ground rod at the pole. that wire does not go back to the power station. Electricity has a voltage which is always measured in our case as a difference from the earth. The bare ground wires in romex and the neutral white do end up connected in the main panel to each other and to the earth rod the power company wire that is also connected to the earth at the pole with an exception in old 240 volt circuits where we have borrowed a white wire and converted it for use as a power leg with black tape as an identifier to future electricians of the fact it is now not a neutral....b This white wire is the neutral in 120 volt circuits only...In 240 volt circuits the white in old work may be used as leg of power going to a breaker to pick up half of the 240 (of the 240 volt circuit)...in that case the book says to help others realize this by coding it black at the ends with some black tape...Today we wire with code changes with four wire to 240 volt circuits...four wire has a black and a red to go to the breakers for the two opposed 120 volt legs...and a white to still go to the neutral as it does in a 120 volt circuit and lastly a bare ground to act as a back up safety ground) The 240 volt circuit explanation continues...So there is 120 volts in one leg and 120 volts in the other leg that alternates positive and negative in a wave action pushing and pulling or just offering the potential to push or pull....this offer to push and pull is based on the difference each leg has with the earth or with each other. They differ from each other 240 volts (120+ and 120- equals 240) total diffence in potential for doing work pushing and pulling for you...like pushing your air conditioning motors.Neutrals...When you work with 120 volts now you will use four wires as the NEC code has change to this in the last decade. the code is updated every couple of years at least...Old 240 volt wires in your house have three wires...The main work to do is hook up 240 to the two 110 volt legs...in the panel there are two wires connected at to every other spot for a breaker...a 240 volt breaker will naturally hookup to the two 120 volt spots to make 240 volts...So the third wire is used as a way to get 110 or and a way to get ground for safety...In the new code they are kept sepearate all throught the home till the main panel...so you use four wires for new work to wire hot water heaters...dryers and ranges...One each of 120 volts and one neutral to make 110 volts and one bare ground to act as a back up safety ground should some insulation fail in the device hooked up, it would carry the power back to the earth better than a persons body does and hopefully save a life...So Your questions wording is so far from the way I think that it makes me think you are way over your head...If you work with a panel that is not hooked up to the pole yet, then you could easily do all the work yourselves and then have someonoe check All your work.b Inspectors do not check all your work...they sample it...You need someone besides the inspector to check all your work thouroughly...And I mean to check under wire nuts to check how tight all your screw connections are and much more...there is a lot of little things that can be done wrong...most won't kill you but some may and some may just make it a big job to redo if you bail out and have an electrician come in to save you....Anyway...am I now helping you!>?I still say your needs are at a class...It's not the same as building your own shelves or painting a room!near the stream,aj
*AJ,WTF practicing typing or what.Good explanation. Courtney does sound intent on getting informed and posts like yours sure beat those half baked electrical books that don't explain why.Guess that stream never freezes.Well I gotta fix the tire on my mountain bike -- it's supposed to be 65º here in CO today.On the backswing,Jim Malone
*If 1K is all you have to rewire a whole house, you will have to be quite resourceful. But it is feasible if you know exactly what to do. In your case, I have to seriously challenge the integrity of your knowledge to the point of recommending that you have the work done by a licenced electrician. Sure it will be more expensive, but it will be done the right way. You came to this site for advice in all humility, you therefore will have to put that to work and swallow this bit of reality. As far as I am concerned aj's rap is as good as it gets and that should pretty much lay the outcome. Get a pro, and I highly recommend you find one that is willing to let you work with him/her so that you learn enough for the next house. That way, you'll save on tuitions. Good luck!fv
*It was putter b flutter ...
*AJ gives a good explanation, but some things need to be clarified. Appliances that use only 240V (water heaters, resistance heaters) require only 3 wire circuits, two hots and a ground. Those that use 240/120V (the 120 is for the control circuits) such as dryers and ranges now require 4 wire circuits, two hots (black and red), a ground (green or bare), and a "neutral" (white). You get 240V between the black and red and 120V between either black or red and white.As for bus bars in the panel, you will have four: two hot which the breakers attach, one for the "neutrals", and one for the grounds. The latter two may be connected or separate depending whether it is the main panel or a subpanel.For a better reference, get a copy of Rex Cauldwell's book "Wiring a House" (Taunton Press) from Amazon.com and find an electrician that may be willing to work with you.Good Luck.
*You know, the problem with bulletin board sytems is that it is too easy to get confused. Here's a more full explanation of the situation, so all you folks can feel better. I'm not wiring any 240V circuits. I was looking through a the Black and Decker advanced home wiring book, and saw a circuit I didn't understand. Therefore, I asked for help in understanding it.I'm not wiring a whole house. The thousand dollars was just for the electrician to change the breaker box from a 60A to a 200A. That's all. Nothing else. I'm not rewiring a breaker box. In fact, I'm not wiring anything at all.
*So Courtney....Did ya learn anything yet? If I had to charge for my above post, it would have been at least a $100....Oh and so what is your specialty?...Maybe we can do a like kind exchange or something...near the stream,aj
*Well Courtney, I'm sure glad we have attained clarity. Geeze, you're not wiring anything...? What was I thinking? Well if you're not wiring anything, that's fine too. It was nice chatting. Sorry about the confusion. I guess there is so much stuff on this screen that I must have mixed you with someone else. Aj did pretty good though, don't you think?fv
*Courtney....I copied your first post which I should have done previously...I will now tell you where you said things that seem like you are clueless and possibly dangerous....I am not doing this to antaganise you just to help explain it to you and to others...Here we go...i Hi. I'm a newbie on the board, and I have a question which is probably really simply(simple)i to you guys, but confuses the hell out of me.If you are that confused, then you have much to learn and should not be doing major electric work without learning much more to lower your confusion..and not just one posting at a carpentry site)i My sig other and I am in the process of buying the house we currently rent. Our landlord is a slumlord(slumlord home!?...that scares me thinking you may miss a lot of problems that the house may have when you do a DIYer job)i who can't legally sell it with a 50A breaker box, so we're forced to replace it before we can buy it. Yes, yes, we really want this house - it's cheap! (It's cheap!...The word cheap being yelled lowers my confidence tenfold...)i so, anyway, we have to replace the breaker box, and neither of us are electrician's, but then, neither do we have a 1K to spend on it.(lowering my confidence tenfold again Courtney...I am not happy to hear you are doing something that kills just because you won't sell a couple of toys to buy a safe electrician's install)i So I'm reading up on connections and such, and I found this thing that I'm really confused by. I understand that the neutral sucks the excess current back the power company, and the ground puts extra in the earth. (Now you are really killing me...The neutral wire does not suck electricity back to the power company...It is at a the earths potential and thus sets up a difference of potential called voltage between either of the two 120 volt legs of potential power that are provided to you for a fee from the power company via the pole and transformer somewhere outside your slumhouse.i As I understand it, you ground the neutral at the main just in case of surges coming in? or going out? or both? No...you understand wrong...nothing we are talking about is to do with surges, nothing. The neutral closes the circuit for 120 volt circuits only so as to provide the potential driving force that we are using to power our lights and outlets...The neutral is hooked up to the earth at the main panel and at the pole...The earth is used as a freely accessable unlimited reference of potential to set up a current based on a difference in potential which is generated by the power company. the potential driving force for 240 volt circuits works with out the neutral by connecting the two legs from the power company in a circuit through a device such as a dryer. The difference in potential between the two legs sums up to 240 volts...i but anyway, my question is really about 240V circuits. This Black and Decker book says that "a double-pole breaker wired for 240V transfers power from both hot bus bars (neutral and breaker?)(yes to both hot bus bars but no, not the neutral...so it is breaker and breaker(through a double pole breaker))i to white and black hot wires in a 2 wire cable. No Courtney...the two hot bus bars are the two power company supplied power legs and one has 120 volts that is always at a difference in potential from the other of 240 volts because their alternating plus and minus potential is exactly opposite at all times... and there is a bit of calculas involved to get the average voltages of 120 volts(per hot leg) from a source that is going through voltages sixty times a second from plus through zero to minus all averaging 120 volts as compared to the earth and 240 volts if compared to each other. i A 240 volt circuit has no neutral wire connection; the white wire is tagged with black tape to identify it as a hot wire." This is true, but many appliances use both 120 volts and 240 volts...so they are wired with romex that has a neutral white too...) Old work is different. An old hot water heater might use two wire and since it does not need a 120 volt circuit, then the electrician just used a white wire as a black hot leg wire and if done correctly, he black tape tagged it to identify the fact that it is a hot leg and not a neutral.i Now, I don't know much about electricity,(but you are going to wire your own home!?)i but this seems inherently dangerous.(No...All your statements here seem dangerous!)i If there is no outlet other than ground for the excess (excess electricity?????????)i electricity I think you could 1) get a short and start dumping huge amounts of electricity into the ground and 2) end up creating (turning)i the ground into a neutral, which would defeat the whole purpose of the ground. As I stated in the other post...the book is telling you how to label a wire that happens to come packaged white...black...so as to identify to all that it is b not a neutral...It is hooked up to a hot leg through a double breaker and is not a neutral...It is a hot leg...If ya use wire that the NEC now has ya use then it would have a black (hot), a red (hot) a white (neutral) and a bare (safety ground)i Therefore, shouldn't one -always- use three wire cable when wiring 240V? NEC code now does want three wire plus ground used in residential 240 volt appliance circuitry. This code change happened in the last few years. The code is updated regularly and must be known by electricians and DIYers!i But, see, I'm not an electrician, or even close to a professional trades person, so I came here for advice :) Well..Our group advice is...you need to learn alot more and or have an electrician check 100 percent of your work and I would hope you never work in a live panel. The wiring of your new panel is not that hard to do but is a challenge in other respects...I still call it the toughest job I do mainly because the wires and placement need to be carefully planned so as to not violate any code and sa as not to generate a need to splice wires to make all work and be neat and professional.b A major danger note...Never should you ever work in a live main panel box...Never should more than one hand go near the main panel box. Never stand on concrete to work in a live box. Stand on dry wood in dry shoes with rubber soles. Do not hold the main panel with one hand ever while working in the box with the other...One hand in your pocket if ya have to... The best way to work in a box is to cut power to it...A new panel can be installed with the power off at the pole. The power company will cut power at the pole if asked to in most juridictions...In some areas...you will tick them off because real professional electricians would do the work live or with other means that do not employ calling the power company...Main panels are not the bastion of DIYers!i Thanks in advance Still waiting for your thanks afterword...In the mean time, your welcome in advance...near the stream that flows for all,ajMy fingers are sore!
*I thought that's what I read too. Hey Courtney, you get us all agitated here, there is duality in your postings as if you were trying to erase your tracks. Now that 50A panel became a 100A box via a 60A one... for only 1K. That's cheap for magic! Now, maybe you are not actually going to do any wiring yourself, but you must be doing the research for some sort of reason or for someone else who is too embarrassed to show his inadequacies on this thread. But I err... Whatever you do or don't do, remember there are people who are concerned on this post, and who at no cost would want to see anyone hurt or any house burnt to the ground (excess voltage and all...). Retrace your steps Courtney, and see why we are giving you these gruesome tirades.Clarity down the mighty Klamath river...(I'm just borrowing that one aj, just once!)fv
*Well, here's some free law advice. I'm not a lawyer, so you can't hold me to the standards of being a lawyer ;P - but I see this as a major concern of y'all on the board. "What if I give bad advice, or someone else does? Doesn't that make them liable? Does that make me liable?" The answer is no. According to the Restatement of Torts, 2nd (which is freely available in any public law library) section 299A, types of negligent acts:"Unless he represents that he has greater or less skill or knowledge, one who undertakes to render services in practice of a profession or trade is required to exercise the skill and knowledge normally possessed by members of that profession or trade in good standing." You all are not engaged in the practice of being an electrician on this bulletin board. You're giving your opinions in return for naught. And sometimes your opinions are for naught. Think of it this way. If two professional electricians disagree about something on this board, then basically, neither of you can be sued successfully, as long as you're an electrician in good standing.Now, if I paid you for the advice (and I don't mean my unprofessional legal opinion), then I think that would qualify as more than a your opinion being vented on the board, and yes, then you would be liable.Now, while I thank Mr. Jack for his excoriation - it's always good to have one's ideas peer-reviewed - if he was a lawyer, s/he'd have looked at the punctuation and such more carefully. Funnily enough, the things that are the most dangerous, which s/he pointed out, are the notes that I quoted about of the Black and Decker book. As for my comments: Note that I never said that I was going to be wiring. I implied it by my illthought comments, but I never said it. I never once said that I was going to wire my own home. Good grief people - you need to cut back on the caffeine and read more carefully. As far as the Black and Decker commentary - I am certainly glad that I placed the quotation on the board. I learned an awful lot. I think the most important thing that I learned was that the person who wrote the book didn't really understand electricity, and thus made life more confusing for all the rest of us.And good god, what sort of idiot do you think I am? Work in a live panel? That's like jumping off a bungee tower without the cord. You may survive, but odds are you won't. I guess maybe "professionals" do it, but I'm not a professional, and I wouldn't hire a professional that did.As for the change in Amperage on the box - I was confused (I am woman enough to admit my mistakes). It wasn't a 50A box, it was a 60A. Local code requires at least 100A box before the house can be sold. The local banks require a 200A box - and as far as I can tell, that's the biggest that residences get, generally, cause that's the biggest residential that they sell at the local supply stores. I was contemplating doing the wiring myself, true enough. But, I got my refund check for the semester, and I think I can scrape $750 out for someone to upgrade the box - therefore my earlier statement that I'm not going to be wiring anything was correct. I'll still not pay a grand for someone to call the electric company, get the power turned off, cut the wires, yank them out of the old box, and put them in a new box. But, I'll pay $750, including the $90 inspection fee.Pretty good pay for a couple hours work, since we spent $400 and bought the box ourselves - maybe I should drop out of law school and be an electrician. Let's see...$350 an hour, minus expenses - at the max, that's at least $100/hr. As for my earlier curiosity about the circuit - I'm surprised that you guys allow anyone new into your ranks. You certainly jump all over someone for expressing curiosity. I never had any intention of wiring a 240V circuit, and I told you that. I simply wanted to know the logic behind the circuitry - which was apparently flawed - "ha, I knew it!!". What's the matter? I can't want to learn about electricity? I might question the electrician who puts the box into my house? I do appreciate your concern for my life, but I'd feel better if I thought it wasn't motivated by a concern of getting sued. sigh. Ah well, such is modern American life, I suppose. Oh, and yes, btw, I'm not going to be that kind of lawyer. I'm going to work on child abuse cases for the state, and very likely going to make MUCH less money than a professional electrician in NY or CA. Starting salary in W.Va for a assistant D.A. is $23,500.
*I have to agree with you Courtney, that 100 bucks an hour is a tad steep for electrical work. As for myself, I am not the smallest bit concerned about being sued for screwing-up with lousy advice, it is a matter of ethics and deep-rooted consideration for life in general that drives me to answer and sometimes challenge what hits my screen. Your are a strong and opiniated person with pride to spare and I respect that highly, for those are indispensible qualities and the true tones of a fine being, but I find you are somewhat harsh on the poor dude/ess that wrote the B&D book. Now, if B&D truely messed up, you've got something you can practice your law juices on as a preliminary to the child abuse cases that we all want you to win. By the way, I think you are going to hear from aj the minute he gets back from the slopes... ah well...fv
*Let me reiterate; I mean I want you to win the child abuse cases only if you represent the abused of course!fv
*Courtney,AJ has probably worked harder on this post than any recent ones. You've done an admirable job of representing yourself. People reading this down the road are gonna find a wealth of info herein. Don't know why but the chemistry works. I for one like it.I have been able to learn so much over the internet (for free) in so many areas where I have little or no expertise that I am more than happy to return the favor when I can (for free). There is more good, solid, hands-on knowledge online than has ever been available from pro authors and old library books. Students become teachers who in turn learn more by teaching. There is always more than enough to go around. I really never understood the logic behind this internet free-ware share-ware concept, but it seems to still be working and it is kinda cool when I can add a tad FWIW.Jim Malone
*We just want you to survive to the next post so we can share some more of our opinions.
*I'm baaaaaaaaaaack!Wow...So Courtney Love.......yaa...love....love ya girl...really...Did I read a thank you in your posts somewhere...maybe subliminally...Ya...I bet I did...Now to b your posts....If you reread the transcripts...you will see intent shown on your part to have your main panel replaced by someone other than an electrician and it really sounded like you were to be in charge of gathering the pertinent facts needed to do this said work. Now it is well known that this is not the case but it is also clear that you do not understand basic AC residential concepts well enough for me to think you are competent to even discuss it yet, let alone be part of doing...And by the way, I just replaced a main panel this summmer for less than $750...One thing you are doing with your time calculations is figuring that all time away from the site is free!...Well you just start studying to be an electrician and tell me when you have been in business for five years if you average what you think electrcians average...You are really far from reality girl...Ya the $10,000/year for the truck...Insurance, yellow pages, all the rest of the overhead...yup....And the same for law...If you charge X/hour...you will never be charging that for every hour you work...so enjoy your fantasies for now cause time will bust most of the ones you have posted here....Good luck...just a paddle or two farther down the stream,ajOh...and what about all the free time giving free advice on the internet...Ya...Most electricians drive a Lexus don't they and have a few rare Porches in their ten car garages!?
*Oh Courtney....Where are you?...near the stream electrified at the silence,aj
*I think we've got some cold shoulder by the stream today!fv
*
I recently moved to a new apartment, the building and the wiring are old, so the receptacles are the 2 prong type. I need to hook up my computer, but am concerned about not having a ground wire, as I have heard that static electricity can build up and zap the hard drive. I installed an adapter, to enable me to plug in the 3 prong plug but the tester still shows no ground.I can't pull a new wire because the place is a rental. I am stumped here, I have even considered running a small wire externally, to a known ground, but not sure what to do. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
Casey