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I just had installer put in a septic system for me. We agreed on a price. But no contract. It has been approved by the local BOH and I’m ready to get my CO. But it has come to my attention that he failed to install certain things that are not necessary for the system, but were designed for overflows. Theses were in the engineers plans and added about 2 thousand in labor and materials. Of course I’ll wait till I get my CO before complaining. Since he told everyone everything was installed. I realize that he is trying to shaft me but how is the best way to approach this.
Thanx for the help.
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Have him come here to Breaktime and post his side of the story in this thread, if you would like us to mediate your dispute. If you both agree, then I am sure we could serve as your Judge Judy. [sorry just got back from the limerick posts @ the Woodshed]
Fair is fair, don't you agree Anthony?
From your description, I would be inclined to be all over his ass in a heartbeat. But, then again, I could also be considered "a fool" for commenting on a situation that I was not privie to all the facts.
Sincerely,
Jeff(not Judge Judy)
*Anthony,From the legal perspective, as a general rule (with lots of exceptions) an oral contract is binding on the parties. The issue is: what did the parties agree to? To enforce an oral contract in court, each side tells its version of the facts and the jury (or judge, if no jury) decides what the terms of the contract were. A court would look at things like: did you show him the plans which included the "extras", where the extras specifically discussed, did you get other bids with &/or without the extras and how did their priced compare (e.g., if you had 2 other bids not including the extras near the price of the installer's price, a court might conclude that you should have realized his bid was not intended to cover the extras.)Bear in mind, of course, that (i) the installer might have a different story to tell, and (ii) laws vary from state to state and the above is not intended as legal advice, but just as some food for thought (but not a full course dinner)Also bear in mind that a "legal" analysis only _begins_ to answer your question <> with lots of other factors to consider.<> Not necessarily. There may have been an honest misunderstanding - depends on the facts. If you're fixed with the opinion that he was trying to get you, it'll narrow the likelihood of a mutually satisfactory resolution.Bob
*I received this piece via email the other day. I thought the subject of the original post may eventually get around to the question of getting the BBB involved in your predicament. I am onlt posting the quote below for educational purposes:Better Business Bureau: Business Friend Or Foe?By Dave BischofMost people have heard of the Better Business Bureau, but there seems to be much confusion over who they are and what they do.Contrary to widespread belief, the Better Business Bureau (BBB) is not a governmental agency and has no legal authority to enforce law. The Council of Better Business Bureaus (CBBB) is the umbrella organization for the Better Business Bureau system. There are both state and localBBBs throughout the nation and in foreign countries. The CBBB is a business corporation, and all local BBBs are private businesses. Each BBB islicensed by the CBBB, and each local BBB pays a licensing fee to the umbrella CBBB organization. Although each local BBB is governed by its own local board of directors, the licensing agreement states that it must substantially adhere to the “policies,points and procedures” of the CBBB. This would seem to establish uniformity among BBBs, but as we will find out later it doesn’t.What It Does: In summation, an awful lot. The BBB provides consumer purchasing tips, employee credit unions, inexpensive arbitration service,newsletters for member businesses, consumer alerts, consumer instructions on how to hire a contractor, and consumer complaint handling andrecording. In fact the mission statement says that the bureaus work to “foster fair and honest relationships between businesses and consumers, instilling consumerconfidence and contributing to an ethical business environment.”The BBB literature says the bureaus “work to hold businesses accountable for maintaining ethical practices in the advertising and sale of products andservices. The BBB also helps to stop fraud and abusive practices against consumers.”The BBB publishes an article on how to hire a contractor, in which it describes the consumer’s contract rights. It urges homeowners to “get three bidsfrom contractors for home improvement.” It also says that when you “sign a contract in your home and in the presence of a contractor, or contractor’srepresentative, you have three business days in which to change your mind and cancel the contract. The contractor is required to tell you about yourcancellation rights and provide you with any cancellation forms. If you cancel, it is recommended that a notice of cancellation be sent to the contractorby telegram or certified mail, return receipt requested.”There are some substantial problems with those instructions. In an age when many homeowners look for rock bottom pricing, quality, professionalismand service are the first things to get thrown out the window. Since many contractors have no idea what it costs them to be in business and provide a service, professional businesses that do have a grip on solidbusiness and accounting practices could be the first to be offered up as a sacrifice on the unholy altar of the BBBs “three estimates.” Also, many states have no right of rescission laws. Can you imagine if you contract in one of the states that doesn’t allow the cancellation of a contract— and a homeowner insists he has a right to cancel because he heard it from the BBB? The homeowner could try to breach a perfectly legal contractbased on erroneous BBB information.The BBB also instructs homeowners hiring a contractor to make sure the contract has “a breakdown of labor and material charges.” That constitutes theBBB forcing you to adopt their time and material mentality. Yet, interestingly enough, you can’t call the BBB and get a labor and material breakdown onmembership dues. Let me digress for a moment and state that labor and material breakdowns are a land mine for contractors who truly know what their business costs are.Many contractors finance a substantial portion of their business overhead with profits derived from material markups. The only reason homeowners want material or labor breakdowns is so they can complain about your markups. Don’t provide them with the noose theywill try to hang you with.Many homeowners are under the false impression that laws exist that require all contractors to sell their services at relatively the same prices, andconclude that anyone who exceeds this phantom figure should be the recipient of complaints. You can’t get a labor and material breakdown from arestaurant, a flower shop, a candy store, an amusement park, a magazine publisher, a supermarket, your dentist or a dog groomer, and neither should ahomeowner be able to get one from a contractor.Complaint Handling: The BBB has, at the consumer’s disposal, a procedure for taking complaints. A consumer can telephone a local BBB office andrequest that the BBB mail them, at no charge, a complaint form. The homeowner then writes whatever he wishes and sends it back to the local BBBoffice. Many BBBs also allow allegations against a contractor to be filed over the Internet. What types of complaints does the BBB handle? Its literature states that the bureaus handle complaints relating to “misleading advertising, improperselling practices, non-delivery of goods or services, misrepresentation, unhonored guarantees or warranty, unsatisfactory service, credit/billing problems,contracts not fulfilled, etc.” Now the question many contractors ask is: Does the BBB handle pricing complaints? The BBB publishes information wherein it states that the bureaus“don’t handle complaints about the prices charged for goods or services unless they involve misrepresentation.” Unfortunately, this couldn’t be further from the truth. A review of other printed information from the BBB shows contradictory information. Therein it states:“If you have a complaint against a local business and/or feel that you have been treated unfairly, misled about a product or service, overcharged or beenthe victim of false advertising, you can make a complaint to the BBB. The BBB will receive your complaint, investigate the charges and act upon thecharges if valid.”I have personally seen a multitude of BBB complaints wherein a homeowner agreed to an unambiguous written price for service from a contractor,received the benefits of that service, checked the price after the fact with a competitor and then filed a price complaint against the contractor. Misrepresentation: It is ironic that a private business like the BBB publishes a claim that it doesn’t investigate price complaints and then seems to do so,thus apparently engaging in the very misrepresentation it claims to investigate.Once complaints are received they are sent out to the recipient business, whether it is a member of the BBB or not. The business has a period of time torespond. If it fails to do so, the BBB will publish to its inquiring clients that the business in question has an “unsatisfactory reliability report” — just because thebusiness chose not to allow a local BBB business to intervene in a claim by a homeowner. If you do respond, they will send a copy back to thecomplaintant. Now let’s say a contractor decides to educate his clients that complaining will result in the client being financially or otherwise rewarded for doing such.Let’s say a complaint is filed with the BBB and the contracting business rolls over, issues a refund and generally yields to the complainant’s demands,whether they have merit or not. Then the BBB file gets closed as a result. Does the BBB then disclose the complaint to your potential clients? BBB spokespeople have also claimed that complaints that are invalid as well as ones closed satisfactorily are not disclosed to inquirers. Unfortunately,this doesn’t appear to be truthful. The very complaint closure letters the BBB mails out state that complaints closed satisfactorily will be made part of thecompany’s reliability report.Now let’s take a look at client perception for a moment. Let’s say your contracting firm performs 750 service calls a month and you receive 3.75complaints per month. Your BBB complaint percentage is one-half of 1 percent. Now let’s compare that to the typical one-person contractor whoperforms 50 service calls a month and receives three complaints a month via the BBB. At first glance to a potential client or TV viewer, it appears thatcompany B is more reputable than company A, because it receives fewer complaints per month. Yet, if you look at complaint to client service ratios,company B receives 12 times more complaints per client than company A. Southern California contractors may recall that last year a tabloid-style television show did a segment wherein they employed a saboteur — whoamazingly enough was a contractor himself — to deliberately damage a water heater in such a manner that it wouldn’t represent the typical water heaterfailure mode a service technician would encounter. In this segment the actor playing the part of an investigative reporter held up for the camera a list of complaints filed against a prominent service andrepair contracting firm. No mention was made that this contracting firm probably performs more service calls than any other company in all of Southern California. The actor inthe segment mentioned that he obtained the complaints from a BBB. I contacted that BBB and spoke with its spokeswoman, Lana Luckett. She said she worked as a BBB public relations liaison to NBC. She said sheprovided NBC with “a list of preferred contractor members.” Yet that BBB’s very own literature claims: “The Bureau does not endorse, recommend ordisapprove of any company, product or service.”The BBB Script: Businesses report a consistent pattern of scripting used by BBB salespeople to sell memberships. The salesperson commences bystating that the company he is calling has received multiple inquiries by potential clients, but the BBB has informed the inquirers that the business inquestion is not a member. I have yet to interview a business that perceived the script to be truthful. The BBB claims that when an inquiry is made on a business that isn’t amember, a computer record is made of that call and the information is collected for a marketing database. This would seem to be a prudent business practice to employ. Yet I have personally taken a sales call from one of the BBB salesmen, wherein I askedhim politely how he came to know about the multiple inquiries. He repeatedly stumbled, reverted back to the script, and when further pressed, claimed hehad someone on hold and asked if I could hold. He then promptly hung up. We had been on the phone for four minutes. What kind of salesperson would first take a call, and then dial out to a prospective client, leaving the first caller on hold for four minutes?The BBB states that the highest number of complaints come from the category of homeowners who have retained the services of home contractors. Ofall the professions, home repair seems to be the one wherein the clients — homeowners who enjoy a certain level of wealth associated with homeownership — are the first to deny the person providing them an important service his fair portion of financial security.Although some contractors report a certain prestige associated with being a member, most businesses would be wise to carefully consider financiallysupporting a business organization that facilitates TV tabloid sleaze and provides a means for chronic complainers to impugn your reputation before yourpotential clients. Dave Bischof is the president and founder of FaucetCraft Faucet Company. He can be reached by e-mail at http://www.faucetcraft.com.
*The David Bischof piece is enlightening. I would pose one question. I was under the impression that the right to rescind a home improvement contract or mortgage loan contract was in the Uniform Commercial Code which had been adopted by all 50 states. True or not?
*The right of Recission Law is a FEDERAL law, not a state law. It is vaild in all 50 states. A similar law called a Right Of Cancellation is a state mandated law, and is active in 38 states (according to the Journal of Light Construction book titled "The Contractors Legal Kit" Also, having dealt first hand many times with the BBB in my area, I am inclined to believe that they do not represent the best interests of the community at large. The employees at the BBB (and they are indeed paid employees) have to be paid somehow. The BBB does not charge the consumer for their services, so they have to get their money from somewhere. They get it from the dues paying members. In my area, if you are a dues paying member, then what you have essentially done is bought "protection" from the BBB. Our local tv news did a report on this fact, and it amazed them what all they found out about. In almost every case of a customer complaint against a dues paying member, the BBB sided with the business. No reprimands were given, no bad conduct reports were entered into company history, no nothing. It seems, according to the local report, that everytime a dues paying member in the past was given a negative report card, they declined to renew their membership. This took away operating funds for the BBB, and after enough of the members quit paying dues, they had to start laying off people. They decided to protect the dues paying members from then on. After the investigation, the top three people at the local BBB "retired". I could not tell you what they do now, for I am not a member. In fact, most of the business community around here is not a member. We still have bad feelings about all of the garbage that was going on, and we do not feel like the local BBB is an organization we wish to be a member of.Remember, this was our local BBB, and I cannot speak for the BBB in your area. They may be excellent, or they may be trash. I personally do not know.Just a thought...James DuHamel
*Back to Anthony ... nothing wrong with a handshake agreement (provided fingers weren't crossed) ... but a written agreement is just so much easier, especially where a project is complex enough to require plans. Memories fade and good-faith disagreements can arise just out of bad memory, where a piece of paper memorializing the agreement could make it go away in a moment. Have you talked to him about it, friendly-like?Regarding the 3-day right of recission .. y'all have it part-right ... I think it applies federally to contracts signed in the home, but only with door-to-door salesmen and certain others -- the rule was designed primarily to get folks out of disasters agreed to under high-pressure sales tactics by cold-call salesmen, as opposed to someone the homeowner contacts and invites over. [I was surprised to learn also that the Truth in Lending Act also allows you 3 days to get out of certain loans using your home as security (mortagages, etc.).] Note that these are business days, not calendar. State laws may provide a grab-bag of additional rights... see http://www.nolo.com/encyclopedia/articles/ctim/contracts.htmlJust to be safe get the client out into the street before signing.Re the BBB, very interesting article. Like businesses, the local bureaus are only as good as the people who run them. I'd like to learn more.
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Cant help you with this one . It might be good lesson for some of us or a good reminder. I was recently beat out by a homeowner on a handshake agreement. I did everything correctly as to our agreement.I could tell in the end I was in for a fight so I ate crow to at least get some money.I got enough to pay meterials and subs and I made less then minimum wage. Spent the past two weeks re-working contracts and polocies. Never again
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Sounds like Bob & jj have given you the straight scoop. The attitude is key. As Bob pointed out, you already feel as though your getting screwed, and if you approach this situation with that attitude, I can almost guess the outcome. When your pissed, the brain has a funny way of forgetting the facts and just the facts.
Lesson I: Handshake agreements (unfortunately) are a thing of the legendary past. When it comes to exchanging money for services, get it in writting. How many times have we all heard this? I'm involved in a battle where even though it's in writting my downfall may be not crossing my t's and dotting all the i's.
With your problem, call your contractor and ask to meet to work out the misunderstanding. Be honest with yourself. You choose this person for a reason. Was he the em-em "the least expensive"?
Was there a point in time where each was very clear with the other as to the job specifications?
With this in mind, and as Bob pointed out earlier, in comparison, is it possible you handed him the drawings, he gave you a price and the specifics were never discussed.
Here's where the ass-umptioms enter.
Be prepared for his responce. He may fire back with
i "My price was for a code approved installation"
No extras. And now what do you do? You don't have a contractor to point out "install according to City approved drawings, including overflow"
Be prepared to bite the bullit my friend, or ask the contractor to eat half for not operating on a professional level just the same. Keep the bottom feeders out of this, you can work it out if you accecpt responcibility for you part.
Just one man's opinion.
Mark.
*b Thanks jj. Great Piece.Can't wait to bring it up around the dinner table. I wonder how many others like myself, prior to reading this article had the same perception of the BBB. I'm not throwing the baby out with the bath water. It just may be where some if not most BBBs are providing the communities with consumer good service. However I had the same thoughts. Where do they get thier funding? Yes, better not upset our dues paying members.b Right to CancelHere in California it is the responcibility of the contractor to provide to the homeowner a docoment which states the right to cancel within 3 business days, if not include the verbage in the contract and sometimes within proximity of the signiture.
*........BBB not so active around here as they once were...same with Dun & Bradstreet...both seem to have lost their punch....Jeff..composed a reply to your post yesterday and posted it but I got timed out before the server responded...so here's the SHORT version...My one page proposal has the following boiler plate items:3-day Right of Recissiondisputes setttled by ArbitrationNotice of Right to File LienChange OrderInsurance Coverage by both parties and all of the job specific itemsI think the 3-day is good business, psychologically (sic?) it enables the owner to sign then and there, if they change their minds in 3 days , I didn't do a good job of answering their fears...and I've never had anyone invoke it..Anthony...I read between the lines that you became aware of your digger leaving out some nice to have items that you weren't aware of until someone else pointed them out to you...sounds like maybe they weren't pointed out to the digger either..and your local BOH , the inspecting agency , didn't raise a flag...and you're not going to upset the apple cart by blowing the whistle cause it might screw up your C.O.-----..so...what is it you want...do you want the items installed..or do you want some money back on the work you contracted for?...this MAY be a problem of miscommunication....but it wouldn't surprise me to have the digger say he had never seen those items before and didn't include them in his bid...if they were important, why weren't they discssed...????Mike
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I just had installer put in a septic system for me. We agreed on a price. But no contract. It has been approved by the local BOH and I'm ready to get my CO. But it has come to my attention that he failed to install certain things that are not necessary for the system, but were designed for overflows. Theses were in the engineers plans and added about 2 thousand in labor and materials. Of course I'll wait till I get my CO before complaining. Since he told everyone everything was installed. I realize that he is trying to shaft me but how is the best way to approach this.
Thanx for the help.