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Mr. Draganic,
2 siders(1 cuts, 1 hangs)-4 or 5 squares/day on a windowless tract-house, no more than 3 squares/day on a cut-up custom.
We’re only on our 5th Hardi-job though.
The Machine
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Mr. Jack,
RE: post #17
You've been doing this awhile, huh? Your numbers... builder's mark-up, hourly rates, etc... are right on w/ the 5 Hardi-jobs we've done. It's almost spooky.
I'd like to have more experience w/ the stuff. My pricing needs adjustment, too low. I don't, however, expect to see us hanging or cutting it any faster. I will post an update after a few more jobs.
My best customer has expressed an interest in using 6" Hardi. He's a long term thinker...likes the warranty. I'm all for it, fewer callbacks for splits and the like. Looks like it's here to stay.
Haven't been by the stream in waaaaaay too long.
Here fishy, fishy.
The Machine
*Mr. Smith,RE:post #23I just finished a bid last night for a new, potential customer (custom home builder) and I tried something radical. I actually marked up my bottom line. I've been accused of "working for free" in the past. We'll see.The Machine
*
mr..machine..
repeat after me..
""Hi, my name is machine and i'm a low bidder""
there, that's the first step..
hahahah..
*
Hi,
ahem.....My name is Machine...and I'm a (cough,cough, clearing my throat)...I'm a low-bidder. Geez, this is really hard. It's not that I want to...um, bid low, that is, I just can't help myself(sob,sob, wiping away the tears)...is it an addiction? Thanks...
The Machine
*
You guys are funny!
Jim is right, lay that stuff when the walls are flat!
i can't help you with your vertical numbers, but can tell you the fastest way on the flat.
We've found that two guys are most efficient. One guy keeps the gun in his hand and blind nails it. The other guy can barely keep up laying it. It is actually easy to lay, because it does not require a gap between pieces. We also keep two saws handi and use the closest one.
I haven't kept time and can only guess. Working alone, Ben would need about two or three hours for the back wall (four windows and a roof notch). That's 7' x 40' worth of siding. About 1 sq per hour.
We've blitzed through gable projects at a faster rate because there aren't any windows to cut around.
I figure about 1500 per house. Maybe I'll have to take a harder look.
Heres a peek at the last hardi house that we did. Most of the houses do not have any on the front.
blue
blue
*damn, blue... there's those crappy mushroom vents again..even if they worked.. why do the builders spec them ?they are way past ugly on an otherwise great looking house..haven't they heard of shingle-over ridge vent there ?... you're right.. from now on we're rolling our houses over so we can side 'em on the flat..why didn't i think of that ?
*Mike, the builders spec them because they would reduce their profit from 125,000 to 124,990.00 if they switch to ridge vents!Good idea about rolling the houses...wish I'd have thought of it!blue
*
I am wondering what subs are getting for installing Hardiplank and how much can be installed by a two man crew in an 8 hour day.
I was recently asked to install for a distributor here. Hardiplank has not yet become very popular in this area so I know little of it.
Thanks for the help.
Pete Draganic
*hey pete, how ya doing..?use the numbers you got for cedar claps... like i said.. you can beat anything you do with them.....
*Mike,Do you have any idea how long it's been since I installed cedar? An old man like me, doing so many things, can't keep track of them all.Pete Draganic
*yeh, i no about you old guys....what was wrong with doing an estimate like i said... draw up an imaginary house... and then you and your helper hang the claps in your head.. and then convert that to a production figure..next week we'll start siding a small cape with Durapress.. 6.5 inch (5 inch exposure) ...[that's Certainteed's they bought out the same plant that makes Ashland-Davis].. i'll keep track.. but i never use those numbers when i estimate.. i always make believe... and i put our crew in the fantasy.. and i don't use hours .. i use daysso .. take a small cape.. 5 days .. two guys.. stage, prep, install and clean up ...figure the SF.. and then figure YOUR rate.... but don't use mine..it's my fantasy.. not yours...hah, hah ,hah
*Certainteed is just coming into my area in northern Vermont. Seems Georgia-Pacific cannot get their act together and know what they have on hand. My building supplier was assured three times in four weeks by GP that I did not have to place an advance order; they had sufficient Cemplank available. Guess what? GP had nothing available and now I am trying to get the New England Cemplank rep to locate enough stuff to get my house sided. It is down in the 30's at night now and will soon be too cold to paint. Certainteed is filling the void and bringing out their own product. My building supplier says forget about getting anywhere with GP. Problem is the Certainteed product does not look much like wood. Anyway, back to the question. The stuff is heavy. You have to allow for a learning curve. Cutting the stuff is a nuisance. Estimate double time for the first job and twenty percent after that.
*Hmmm, interesting, S E - so you are saying that you should expect the first home owner to pay for your education in learning how to install the stuff...
*casey.. why do you phrase it that way?.. why not just work your estimate and that is what the price is...what are you suggesting ? that he take a loss on this job ?and then what.. he amortize the loss over the next 5 jobs.. or maybe the next 3 ?want the latest computer? do you pay current prices .. or next years prices today?why do you expect contractors to work differently than the rest of the service world ?get real.....
*Get em Mike!near the stream, what he say,aj
*Mike...You get the heavy plank hung as quick as the wood plank?....Not me yet...My price right now including extensive trim package is three times the floor square feet....What's yours work out to?near the stream,aj
*tell you next week , aj.... this siding job is just part of a whole-house gut and remodel.... so if i blow it one way or another .. i'm not worried..i'm always leary of using production rates for pricing...but since fibercement is going to be a major part of our retinue from now on ... i'll at least work up some reality checks....if i was a siding sub.. it would be a different story.. but i'm not we're just 3 carps.. plus me.. trying to keep my finger in the dike....and enjoying everything we build....part of that is trying to make a profit... amazing how it changes your enjoyment of your work....
*Your finger in the dike? how does she feel about that?BTW, how many squares are reasonable to get up in one day? That's all I really need to know.Pete
*Message to Casey R.: No, I never charge someone to learn something new. Better is to figure you will take a loss the first few times trying something new. Remember when Trex appeared? Learning just how to countersink the fasteners perfectly took time. Just use some of your markup to compensate for the learning curve. This Cemplank/Hardiplank/Durapress stuff takes longer to install, even after you master its nuances. Twenty percent longer to install it is a minimum. Some guys will not touch the stuff due to the weight. The cost of the cornerboards and trim is outrageous. Better is to use aluminum for the soffit and clear western red cedar for the other stuff. You will save your back and the customer some bucks. And hey, you guys getting this stuff when you want it? And what is the cost? Current job is Cemplank cedar textured 4x8 sheets without the groove at $.69 square foot. After it's up additional strips will be attached to mimic board and batten siding. This is northern Vermont where we got more cows than people. My town is so small that after you go to confession the people in church will let you know if you forgot anything.
*Mr. Draganic,2 siders(1 cuts, 1 hangs)-4 or 5 squares/day on a windowless tract-house, no more than 3 squares/day on a cut-up custom.We're only on our 5th Hardi-job though.The Machine
*machine... everything we do is cut-up custom... so if i read your rates correctly .. my benchmark would be 1.5 sq. / man / day...right ? ... sounds reasonable
*Mr Machine,Thank you ever so much. That was exactly the info I wanted.Pete
*Mike,i no more than 3 squares/day on a cut-up custom. so thats 1 sq / man / day b max output!And then you don't bit max output do you?...So your bid would be less 1...say 2.5 per 3man crew per day....equals .83sq/man/day....For me .83 includes all trim and a real tough custom like the last one we did...we did like hit machines high number on one large wall on one day...about six sq...near the stream,ajmachine...so glad you posted as you are the first to post numbers that are close to mine...
*This past summer my son and I installed 2 square in 4 hours before the wall was raised. No openings, splines and "Big Stretch" at all butt joints, butted to temporary corner boards and blind nailed with a roofing gun. He's a real smart kid though, and could see what had to be cut for the next starter course after seeing the pattern. Later, on that same building, he and another experienced carpenter hung about 2 square a day when applying it to a vertical wall. Makes a huge difference, and anyone who has the chance, should consider siding BEFORE you raise the wall. Just think about the difference of sliding that stuff around on a horizontal surface as opposed to manhandling it on a vertical one.
*Machine, Mike, Pete,...Lets talk price now...If we agree that one man can put up one sq/day including all trim...what are we paying that carpenter/siding pro and what are we charging the customer?Here the siders are paid (by one siding company as subs) $15/hour=$120/day...Customer if a builder and by the hour would pay $20/hour=$160/day...The builder marks it up too...takes twenty to forty percent= multiply by 1.25 to 1.67= $25 to $33.4 / hour= $200 to $267.20 per square...That last home we did had around fifty square and was for a builder...We were paid $280 per square including two very detailed porches and all trim...Never again!...Next one like that will be 3 times the square feet of living space...that would have paid us $480/square and I would have made par (pay) for the crew, myself and a little profit as I should...The project manager agreed that it should be that high a number and will be estimated differently next time taking into consideration the number of corners, openings, chimney chases and porch and column details...What do you guys think?...whats your numbers?near the stream,aj
*aj.. i'm a remodeler living in an expensive area.. i'm not going to tell you my prices.. that wouldn't help you anyways.....i will share my production rates though.. when i get them.... people see my estimating rates and they say..why we can do it in half that time..well maybe they can,the point is .. mine are based on past performance.. and we include everything.. because that's what we're bidding on.. as the GC.. anything that falls thru the cracks.. belongs to us...if i start doing any new construction again... i'll sub a lot of the carpentry.. right now .. we are more efficient doing it ourselves...to our standards..and from time to time, we will to anything except plumbing , A/C, and electrical....and we don't do excavating.....i can tell you this ... our labor burden is 47 %i.e. IF i were paying someone $10.. it would cost the company $14.70 before i ever made a dime...b but it sure is interesting....
*Pete:I posed this question to a friend yesterday who is kinda in the same boat as most here. He said himself and his 2 helpers could do about 3 sq./day. He stays ahead and runs trim, the other two hang hardie. From MY experience on my own home, I found it to go a lot slower. Trying to wrestle that stuff up 3 sections of staging on my cut-up custom was very slow, sometimes 1 sq./day. But like has already been said: you better get used to it, cause IMHO it is here to stay.
*Wedge....great post...I just would like you to clarify...1 sq/man or one sq/three men?....If it went much slower for you but you were by yourself then you were at the same rate....We all need to speak in terms of our average rate per how many men per how many hours per day...then we have apples to apples and can comapare and learn something...near the stream, and thanks for more info if possible..aj
*How ya doin' A.J. My buddy was doing 3sq./day for the whole crew. 1 sq./man avg. Having worked with him here and there I don't think they are extremely fast, but careful and efficient. I think what slowed me down so much was as I got to where I was having to use staging, I was using my wife, friends, i.e. unskilled but very willing helpers. That meant I had to get down, go make a cut, get back up, Recut, go back up, etc. ad nauseum. The first eight or ten rows went great, but the stuff is so fragile that you have to take some extra time when you start going up. As I see it as a novice, one might want to factor in a bit more for 2nd story and/or lots of cuts. I would guess it took me about 4 weeks for siding and trim. I planned on 2.And I sure didn't like hanging soffits with the 1/4" panels. Pretty heavy and flexy when you're 25' off the ground. For all my bellyachin though, I really like it now. It looks great painted, and I think it will for a long time to come.
*Mike, interesting about your "fantasy" bidding process. I used to do exactly the same thing when I was an engineer biding projects in a plant environment. I always got extremely close to the "actual" numbers and our professional estimators were always way off using the estimating books. I work for myself now and bid lots of contract work, and it's amazing how I now leave out stuff and under estimate my time requirements. I guess I'm too concerned about what it will cost -- if I'm worth it, I guess they know (and vice versa).
*crusty... the hardest discipline i face is not believing the bottomline number..... when i finally get to the end .. i always want to take something out.. to get the price lower..only looking back at the consequences in past jobs saves me
Quick question, I am new to these forms. I work for a guy who subcontracts hardi Jobs from another company. Any idea how much I should be making per square? I do cuts and install but not the trim. I do good work and have gotten complements by the home owner each job, 2years experience.
Easy answer.
As much as he is willing to pay you.